What does the Dead Sea Scrolls mean to Christians?

[RedTent]

The Dead Sea Scrolls opened up a new way to look at Judaism and Christianity and their relationship.

It has taken a long time to piece them together and analyze them. Most of this has been done in the academic world and it still is. The results are slowly sifting down to us. The result that most affect us is the new realization of the close connection between what we call Judaism and Christianity. God would not put those labels on these ideas. Christ is one with the Father, Christ was there at creation, God would not separate them.

There is no mention of Jesus in any of the scrolls, but it gives an understanding of the world as it was when Jesus lived here. Through this understanding, we can better understand what Christ did in those days.

As more and more is discovered about the Old Testament we find it truly is about Christ, the Father, and the Holy Ghost. For years and years there was a division so serious it sometimes resulted in murdering Jews. Now, many people are seeing the understanding of God the Father the OT gives us as the foundation of the growth available to us through the earth time that Jesus spent with us and was cruicified. Some are seeing that understanding the OT is as necessary as elementary school is to people going to college.

I am studying the OT through a commentary by a man who spent eight years studying the OT through the knowledge of those times these scrolls has opened up. By knowing the world they were written about, it is an opening up of what God is saying. Many of you have learned Hebrew, or can use Strong's. I envy you. It helps open up the OT. Hebrew has changed over centuries, just as English has. I have never been able to comprehend Shakespere, altho he wrote in English. When I study with a man who can read the ancient Hebrew I have a leg up on understanding.

Just as the Holocaust has been used to open up prophecy such as the Jews returning to their land, I think God is working with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[kenisyes]

So much has been overturned. Many years ago, I did a teaching on the symbolism in the standards in the war scroll. The calendar has opened up many new questions. Reading that the urim and thummim were technological, not dice, like Josephus said; reading that Mahway flew to see Enoch; seeing how the fragment of Genesis was altered for interpretation; finding the prophecy of the wheel before 70AD. Any one of these seriously throws into question much of Scripture and how we use it, and much of what we think the early church was like. And the idea that so many people would throw their fortunes in together and build a new community just to seek God is mind-blowing.

 

[Tintin]

Any one of these seriously throws into question much of Scripture and how we use it, and much of what we think the early church was like.

Very interesting, Kenisyes. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on the above point? Thanks!

 

[kenisyes]

Start with the genesis apocryphon. We today, ollow the Jews in how they interpret Genesis, as Jesus taught "not a jot nor a tittle hsall pass away". The Genesis apocryphon changes a single letter of Hebrew here and there, just enough to create a whole new view of Abraham. I use Scripture that way sometimes, and get criticized for it. We need to ask ourselves just to what extent Scripture proves, and to what extent it inspires.

The prophecy of the wheel is known to very few Christians but is exceedingly important. It predicts the Catholic Church by saying that the church will be taken over for greed and desire for the honor of men. Previously known only from a newer document (Ascension of Isaiah? I think), it was always held to be written in the 400's as a historical complaint about the Cath. Ch., because you can't tell from the type of Greek used how old it was. Finding it in the DSS proves it is a real prophecy and existed before the fall of Jerusalem.

Josephus had long claimed the urim and thummim are some type of mind-reading device (that's the best term we have*). He was ignored by EVERY Bible commentary, that instead says they are dice. The DSS gives the same interpretation. The existence of such technology is supported by other documents, such as the Talmud, and demonstrates that Rome, Egypt and Jerusalem were far more scientific than we constantly believe. Technology is not new to Christianity in the last two centuries. Suppose Mahway really did fly? All of a sudden, the Bible has something to say about UFO's we might have missed.

*The priest holds his hand over the urim. The thummim projects a cloud into the sky apparently drawing power from the prayer of the congregation. The priest uncovers the urim, which then shoots lights into the cloud telling everyone God's will. The DSS confirms this almost word for word. Josephus does not provide any more detail, because he states that everyone he is writing for (80AD) knows all about this, obviously having seen it in operation. A search of Scripture yields two confirmations: The urim/thummim does not work when there is no congregation, and Levi is prayed for to have God's urim and thummim, as though there are others. Cessationists take note: This also proves that there is a physical phenomena that could give rise to a feeling of "anointing" in prayer.

 

[Tintin]

Wow. Great! Thanks. There are a few terms in your post that I'm not familiar with but I'll look into them myself. Thanks again.

 

[Shilo]

Does anyone have thoughts on the copper scroll?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They prove daniel was not written after the fact. as these scrolls predate any dates most of the world want to date daniel. because no one can predict future events. thus daniel could not have written his word.

also proves other aspects of scripture are true, and not added many years later.

basically, it shuts up the naysayers.

 

[kenisyes]

Does anyone have thoughts on the copper scroll?

I think the treasure is symbolic. I do not believe they ever were rich enough to actually have acquired it. I further do not believe that the reason the scroll was hidden by the archeologists was "to protect the history". I think they wanted the money.

i have an odd theory about the 7 added words in Greek letters, but I'd like to wait to say until I've heard from anyone else. Has anyone ever heard an explanation?

 

[Shilo]

I have heard of how the Ark of the Covenant was hidden from the Babylonians. It is amazing and is even in our bibles. The use of greek on the scrolls and to say that it was not a good scribe who translated it makes one wonder. Scribes are known for their work and something this important would not have been given to an uneducated scribe. The answer has got to be the real clue is how it is written to find the truth or it is a fake and not a good one.

 

[RedTent]

=kenisyes;So much has been overturned. Many years ago, I did a teaching on the symbolism in the standards in the war scroll. The calendar has opened up many new questions. Reading that the urim and thummim were technological, not dice, like Josephus said; reading that Mahway flew to see Enoch; seeing how the fragment of Genesis was altered for interpretation; finding the prophecy of the wheel before 70AD. Any one of these seriously throws into question much of Scripture and how we use it, and much of what we think the early church was like. And the idea that so many people would throw their fortunes in together and build a new community just to seek God is mind-blowing.[

I am SO impressed with you and the depth of understanding of our cc community! I feel as if I am just hanging on by the edges.


Just the fact of the urim and thummim with the power it had shows us that there is more to our world than we ever can comprehend. When we tamper with it with disobedience, we are tampering with great power.

 

[crossnote]

I have heard of how the Ark of the Covenant was hidden from the Babylonians. It is amazing and is even in our bibles. The use of greek on the scrolls and to say that it was not a good scribe who translated it makes one wonder. Scribes are known for their work and something this important would not have been given to an uneducated scribe. The answer has got to be the real clue is how it is written to find the truth or it is a fake and not a good one.

That may indicate a dishonest or a non scribe, otherwise variations in style not content determines 'education levels'.

 

[Shilo]

Mishnaic Hebrewis ancient Hebrew
Seven of the locationnames are followed by a group of two or three Greek letters. Greek letters havea number attached to each of them. Those letter may be numbers.
The scribe changes from the cursive script with formalletters.
If the problem is with how the letter are formed then thereis a mystery here that could be true. The jots and the tittles in the Torah aredone in a similar way. In the Torah when a mystery in there for someone tounravel words may have a letter missing, a letter written bigger than otherletters, a letter written smaller than other letters. There is also when it isthe right letter but the wrong form of the letter.
There is the debate on if weights used if they are Egyptians or Hebrew, but that debate only adds to the Mysterybecause it was the Egyptians that helped hide the Ark. Egyptians stopped in using that weight in 500 BC. Egypt was in factthe only known place where copper was used for writing! The chemicalcomposition of the copper scroll is almostidentical to copper used in Egypt in thetime of Ramses III
In 1926 before the copper scroll was found a jugwas found which contained 23 gold bars, with nearby silver ingots, rings andmore precious objects. The area where it was found is now known as the “Crockof the Gold Square. The Gold found was roughly identical to the size in Copper Scroll if Egyptian weight is used.
There are different times given for when the Temple wasdestroyed but the feeling is NebuchadnezzarII after the Siege of Jerusalem of 587 BCE destroyed it. Jews say it was 422 BCE but others say it was 165 years beforethat.
I would say it is1[SUP]st[/SUP] Temple time but the Greek would not fit then I don’t think.

 

[tribesman]

Re: What does the Dead Sea Scrolls mean to Christians?

A good argument for apocryphal literature and the LXX. Many valuable historical details and facts about contemporary life. Very good resource.

 

[kenisyes]

Mishnaic Hebrewis ancient Hebrew
Seven of the locationnames are followed by a group of two or three Greek letters. Greek letters havea number attached to each of them. Those letter may be numbers.
The scribe changes from the cursive script with formalletters.
If the problem is with how the letter are formed then thereis a mystery here that could be true. The jots and the tittles in the Torah aredone in a similar way. In the Torah when a mystery in there for someone tounravel words may have a letter missing, a letter written bigger than otherletters, a letter written smaller than other letters. There is also when it isthe right letter but the wrong form of the letter.
There is the debate on if weights used if they are Egyptians or Hebrew, but that debate only adds to the Mysterybecause it was the Egyptians that helped hide the Ark. Egyptians stopped in using that weight in 500 BC.Egypt was in factthe only known place where copper was used for writing! The chemicalcomposition of the copper scroll isalmostidentical to copper used in Egypt in thetime of Ramses III
In 1926 before the copper scroll was found a jugwas found which contained 23 gold bars, with nearby silver ingots, rings andmore precious objects. The area where it was found is now known as the “Crockof the Gold Square. The Gold found was roughly identical to the size in Copper Scroll if Egyptian weight is used.
There are different times given for when the Temple wasdestroyed but the feeling is NebuchadnezzarII after the Siege of Jerusalem of 587 BCE destroyed it. Jews say it was 422 BCE but others say it was 165 years beforethat.
I would say it is1[SUP]st[/SUP] Temple time but the Greek would not fit then I don’t think.

The archeology of Qumran suggests the settlement itself was much later than first temple. Any historical technique can be copied at any later period. If you are a big enough group and have the resources, duplicating the copper would be no problem.

The talmud reference that mentions the urim and thummim also mentions the shamir. The shamir appears to be the power element in some kind of laser cutting device. If one follows the shamir thread back to ancient times, it ties together with a technological installation used to maufacture both urim/thummim and shamir. The installation has seven principle operating elements (stations) that must be spaced several hundred feet apart. The 7 groups of Greek letters, if read in Egyptian, are acceptable names for the 7 stations of the manufacturing installation. As such, they could be "older" names of the locations of those 7 parts of the treasure. Although the treasure (and for that matter, the manufacturing station) may be merely symbolic, if both are real, using the models of the manufacturing installation that we have would allow for location of the other 6 stations from the one we know. It would be an interesting test of both. I'm too old to dig for treasure, especially this imaginary kind.

 

[Shilo]

Yes, I know people could make copper scroll at a later date but it would not be the same make up of one from an earlier time. I think maybe the other Dead sea scrolls could be from that settlement. The Copper scroll was deeper in the cave so it was put there at a nother time. Jeremiah it is believed was told the mystery on how to hide the Ark of The covenant. If he was given that iformation he could have hidden other things from the Temple.

 

[kenisyes]

True, but who else would have assembled such a treasure? Are you suggesting it is the map to the lost First Temple treasure? The Greek at Jeremiah's time is remotely possible, but not likely. Maybe the Maccabbean period Temple destruction treasure? Didn't the Greeks grab all that before they had a chance to hide it?

 

[Shilo]

I will have to look more into the Temple of the Maccabbean period, but I think not sure that the idea that Jeremiah had something to do with the Ark and therefore maybe this was from one of the books of Maccabees.

 

[Shilo]

The last time the Ark of the Covenant is mentioned in Scripture was when King Josiah (in 623 B.C.) ordered the Ark to be put back in the Temple (2 Chron. 35.3). This shows that during the reign of wicked kings, the priests would hide it somewhere. There is no record in the Bible that the Ark of the Covenant went to Babylon. We also learn in the Bible that from the time of David the Ark of The Covenant had to be carried the way God said or people could die like Uzzah 2 Samuel 6:1-7 and 1 Chronicles 13:9-12. This shows that the priest had to be the ones to move the Ark. According to Josephus, the inner chamber of the Temple the holy of holies was completely empty.

Many believe Dome of the Spirits on the Temple mount is the real Holy of holies. 1 Kings chapter 6 tells about the building of the Temple. In 1 kings 6:19 it talks about inner sanctuary he does not call this the Holy of holies. He also talks about a stretched gold chains across the front of the inner sanctuary and also on top of the pillars., I am not saying it is not a most holy place just not the place we think. It is in the inner part of the Temple. Then in 1 kings 8 the Priest did bring the Ark into the inner sanctuary the Holy place. The Ark was put in the Holy of Holies. 1 kings [SUP]12 [/SUP]Then Solomon spoke: “The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I have surely built You an exalted house, And a place for You to dwell in forever.. Here King Solomon lets us know the ark is in a dark place of mystery. Then King Solomon starts talking about David “it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple”. This is another clue on where the Ark of the Covenant is. Are heart is in the center of our body but below the surface. The Temple mount is the center of Israel. 1 kings [SUP]21 [/SUP]And there I have made a place for the ark.
There are no contradiction in the word of God only things we do not understand yet.
1 Kings 7:15-22 7:15 He fashioned two bronze pillars; each pillar was 27 feet(eighteen cubits.) high and 18 feet(twelve cubits.) in circumference. 7:16 He made two bronze tops for the pillars; each was seven-and-a-half feet high.( five cubits )7:17 The latticework on the tops of the pillars was adorned with ornamental wreaths and chains; the top of each pillar had seven groupings of ornaments.7:18 When he made the pillars, there were two rows of pomegranate-shaped ornaments around the latticework covering the top of each pillar.7:19 The tops of the two pillars in the porch were shaped like lilies and were six feet high.7:20 On the top of each pillar, right above the bulge beside the latticework, there were two hundred pomegranate-shaped ornaments arranged in rows all the way around.7:21 He set up the pillars on the porch in front of the main hall. He erected one pillar on the right side and called it Jakin; he erected the other pillar on the left side and called it Boaz. 7:22 The tops of the pillars were shaped like lilies. So the construction of the pillars was completed.
Jeremiah 52:21-23
52:21 Each of the pillars was about 27 feet (eighteen cubits) high, about 18 feet ( twelve cubits) n circumference, three inches thick, and hollow. [SUP]22 [/SUP]A capital of bronze was on it; and the height of one capital was five cubits, with a network and pomegranates all around the capital, all of bronze. The second pillar, with pomegranates was the same.
52:23There were ninety-six pomegranate-shaped ornaments on the sides; in all there were one hundred pomegranate-shaped ornaments over the latticework that went around it.


2 Kings 25
[SUP]13 [/SUP]The Babylonians broke up the bronze pillars, the movable stands and the bronze Sea that were at the temple of the Lord and they carried the bronze to Babylon. [SUP]14 [/SUP]They also took away the pots, shovels, wick trimmers, dishes and all the bronze articles used in the temple service. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The commander of the imperial guard took away the censers and sprinkling bowls—all that were made of pure gold or silver.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]The bronze from the two pillars, the Sea and the movable stands, which Solomon had made for the temple of the Lord, was more than could be weighed 25:17 Each of the pillars was about twenty-seven feet ( eighteen cubits ) High. The bronze top of one pillar was about four and a half feet (three cubits)high and had bronze latticework and pomegranate shaped ornaments all around it. The second pillar with its latticework was like it.
2 Chronicles 3:15-17
3:15 In front of the temple he made two pillars which had a combined length of 52½ feet, with each having a plated capital seven and one-half feet high ( 5 cubits) 3:16 He made ornamental chain in the sanctuary and put them on top of the pillars. He also made one hundred pomegranate-shaped ornaments and arranged them within the chains. 3:17 He set up the pillars in front of the temple, one on the right side and the other on the left.He named the one on the right Jachin, and the one on the left Boaz
[SUP]12 [/SUP]the two pillars; the two bowl-shaped capitals on top of the pillars; the two sets of network decorating the two bowl-shaped capitals on top of the pillars; [SUP]13 [/SUP]the four hundred pomegranates for the two sets of network (two rows of pomegranates for each network, decorating the bowl-shaped capitals on top of the pillars);

2 Chronicles 6 6 Then Solomon spoke:“The Lord said He would dwell in the dark cloud.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I have surely built You an exalted house, And a place for You to dwell in forever

From what I remember on a teaching of this during the time when Nebuchadnezzar a weight system was activated. This system was a type of weight counter balance system used in ancient Egypt. This is why capital height changes along with the number of pomegranates. The Ark of the Covenant was put into the Heart of The Temple mount and then sealed.

 

[Shilo]

In 500bc Greece was making city –states along the black and Mediterranean seas for trade. Their trade went all the way down to Egypt. This makes it possible for Greek letters to be on something from the first Temple time period. If you want to hide something you would want anyone who camea cross it not to understand the message. A mix of different languages would help out with that.

 

[Ariel82]

[h=2]What does the Dead Sea Scrolls mean to Christians?[/h]
that the lies and false doctrines Paul warned the early church about is being reintroduced into the world in the form of gnostic text to deceive and lead people away from the purity and simplicity of Christ.

[h=3]2 Corinthians 11:2-4[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity[SUP][a][/SUP] that is in Christ. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!