What happened to discipleship in today's American church?

[atwhatcost]

In the early church - you can plainly see where the apostles raised up fellow brothers and sisters so that they then could go out and do the same. That is how the early church expanded. Granted the fellowships of believers were smaller and it was easier to know each brother and sister - to watch over their growth. Today's churches - some are so big that I can guarantee you that the pastor does not even know half (if that many) in his congregation. How can a pastor truly pastor his "flock" if it is so large without delegating responsibility to others that are raised up in the word?

I honesty don't know how many are in the church I consider my church. It's big though. At least 2000 adults, and that's my conservative estimate. (Really hard to judge, since we know at least one member who spends his life as a missionary in Kenya, and know a handful of others are doing the same thing elsewhere, but tht church is their home base. And then their are college students who live here 10 months a year and go home for summer break. Many reasons people don't show up every week, and even if they d, there are three services they can come to.)

How many of those does the Teaching Elder know? (In my denomination the Teaching Elder is the guy behind the pulpit. He's not the guy who ministers to the people, except through the sermons. That would be the Ruling Elders.) Maybe 100 by names and families? I'm not sure. (Never knew him well enogh to even ask him how his day was. lol)

I knew a Ruling Elder though. (He was a friend. I've been disabled for so long, I can't go to church anymore and can't participate, so we lost track over time.) I knew there were five, and among those five just about anyone who was interested was friends with one or more of them.

And then there are home parishes/churches. Big city, (Philly), so there are five -- one for each major section of the city. They meet once a month as a group. And in those home parishes, there are groups that meet at somebody's house once a week like any other home meeting. And out of the big church, there are several ministries so big, they have one or two full-time staff members, while they use as many who want to volunteer at whatever ministry there is. And out of those ministries they reach out into the community of people who need the help, which brings people to the Lord, and then often those people volunteer to help those ministries for a season or a lifetime.

The ministries include helping the poor and homeless (which my friend the Ruling Elder was in charge of), help people with different kinds of addictions, including sexual sin (which also fits in with feeding and assisting people with AIDs, HVC, and other diseases that attack the body because of the sin), and ministries for university campuses, including students, faculty and workers. Anyone who wants to help helps in an intimate way -- many ways.

So, yes, the Teaching Elder may not know the vast majority, but what's wrong with big churches? It doesn't mean you're stuck being one of the masses. You can still get to know people and join in anyway you feel led.

 

[crossnote]

At our age, "young people" is defined differently. Come to think of it, I am a "young people" to you.

I try to console my wife when she looks in the mirror by saying, "don't worry about those wrinkles...new body coming up as we will be ageless"

...umm, doesn't help much

 

[crossnote]

In the early church - you can plainly see where the apostles raised up fellow brothers and sisters so that they then could go out and do the same. That is how the early church expanded. Granted the fellowships of believers were smaller and it was easier to know each brother and sister - to watch over their growth. Today's churches - some are so big that I can guarantee you that the pastor does not even know half (if that many) in his congregation. How can a pastor truly pastor his "flock" if it is so large without delegating responsibility to others that are raised up in the word?

Small groups are a must when attending a mega church.

 

[Nautilus]

How do we reach the lost and the seeking? Apparently the modern American church has decided the best approach is through vibrant, vigorous, self-motivating programs, performances and events – the more vibrant, vigorous, and self- motivating, the more dynamic the better. I’ve heard it called “theo-tainment.”

Problem: While we’re spending the money, time, and human resources going into such endeavors, we are robbing discipleship and training efforts of money, time, and human resources that should be directed to the recently saved. We therefore should not be surprised that we have church after church after church, across communities, cities, counties, states, and the nation that are, as the saying goes “ a mile wide and an inch deep.”

We have made it a numbers game. “Yeah,” says Pastor A, “We’ve got a great youth ministry. A thousand kids every weekend!” Pastor B, not to be outdone, says “Oh, that’s great, but you should see the turnouts we have for our youth retreats. Last month, we had 5,000 kids turn out at Camp Watchacallit to hear Skillet play and Matt Pitt preach! We had 250 commitments to Christ!”

Great, but what are you doing to actually grow those commitments into disciples, instead of just numbers?

Fact: The modern American church ignores Christ’s final command, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:18-20).

Our churches love to talk about numbers, but no one wants to talk about helping these numbers cultivate, develop, and encourage a deep abiding relationship with Jesus Christ. That is, in fact, the burden we (allegedly) accept after having persuaded these “numbers” to heed the draw, call, and power of the Holy Spirit.

I say "allegedly" because very, very few churches are showing a commitment to that burden. It is undeniable, however, that it becomes our responsibility, having brought them to the throne of God, to train them up in Him, a process that, in this life, is unending until life itself ends.

Scripture is full of admonitions not just on preaching the Gospel, but discipling the converts. Romans 12:1, 2 has Paul challenging us to “by the mercies of God … present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.”

This passage speaks to the fact that everything relative to our view of reality must change once we have come to Christ. Not only is it mandatory that this new view be integrated into every aspect of our lives and thinking, but we are responsible for making certain those whom we have shared it with, upon making their own commitment to Him, also begin to “change their aspect and attitude” to match Jesus’. They must come to realize the resurrection of Christ and our adoption into the family of God demands a wholly new way of understanding the cosmos and the human situation within the cosmos.

Throughout the first decade of the new millennium, multiple studies-revealing a crisis among youth in the church seemed to appear almost every year and now the research still shows no improvement. Some of the frightening statistics:

• 59 percent of Protestant teens (13-17) report regular church attendance (meaning they attend church at least 1-3 times per month)
• 41 percent of all teens reported regular church attendance
• 47 percent of Protestant teens reported active involvement in their church’s youth group
• 38 percent of all teens report such activity
• 90 percent of Protestant teens say they believe in God
• 85 percent of all teens say they believe in God
• only 12 percent of all teens say they are “unsure about the existence of God.”

So what is so frightening about that? It looks really good to you? Clearly, you might say, this generation is anything but irreligious, or faithless. However, further research begins to reveal the disconnect I mentioned earlier.

According to the study:

• only 55 percent of Protestant teens believe in life after death
• 50 percent of all teens including the non-religious believe in an afterlife
• 69 percent of Protestant teens say they have made “a personal commitment to live for God”
• yet only 32 percent read the Bible once a week or more
• 19 percent report having had sexual intercourse in the last year compared to 22 percent of those who are un-churched.
• 63 percent of Protestant teens report cheating in school compared to only 58 percent of all teens
• 41 percent say that morals are relative – that “there are no definite rights or wrongs for everybody.”

Barna Research further underscores glaring contradictions between the beliefs of most professing teens and accepted biblical doctrines. Amazingly, in the face of these mounting statistics, and despite the continued evidence demonstrating the American church’s failure to adequately and holistically disciple the faithful into maturity, the leadership in so many of our churches continue to do the same thing, employing the same paradigm that emphasizes programmatic evangelism rather than making disciples.

Where are the courageous men and women who will raise their voices in the church to lead our congregations back to truly fulfilling the Great Commission?

This was actually our sermon this past sunday surprisingly enough. Same verse and everything. But our pastor also brought up the fact that these theo-tainment churches are pouring millions into new buildings and locations to attract people and meanwhile 26,000 kids die a day from malnutrition and lack of clean water. Where is the church there? Of the 7.1 billion people on this planet 2.9b will die having never heard the gospel, where is the church there?

 

[atwhatcost]

This was actually our sermon this past sunday surprisingly enough. Same verse and everything. But our pastor also brought up the fact that these theo-tainment churches are pouring millions into new buildings and locations to attract people and meanwhile 26,000 kids die a day from malnutrition and lack of clean water. Where is the church there? Of the 7.1 billion people on this planet 2.9b will die having never heard the gospel, where is the church there?

Good question. Where are you?

 

[Gr8grace]

We have forsaken the methods God established. We declare the word of God preaching the gospel that men might be saved. Then we teach the converts to serve the Lord and make more converts.

We must trust God to honor His word. We have gone to operating in our strength and discarded the mighty power of God to convert men and save their souls. We seek to make sinners comfortable and to entertain them instead of giving them the truth and trusting God to convict them of their sin and bring them to Christ.

You can only disciple sheep not goats.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't know about you guys. but from my experience we have 2 schools of thought in Christianity today.........Arminian or reformed.

One is telling people................work or lose salvation.


The other is saying, well if your elected you got a shot at salvation if God chooses you.......so maybe?

How the heck can disciples be made if we can't even get past salvation?

Forums are a perfect example..................we can't even get past salvation,let alone making disciples.

We can't get past salvation......................disciples will not be made.

 

[atwhatcost]

I don't know about you guys. but from my experience we have 2 schools of thought in Christianity today.........Arminian or reformed.

One is telling people................work or lose salvation.


The other is saying, well if your elected you got a shot at salvation if God chooses you.......so maybe?

How the heck can disciples be made if we can't even get past salvation?

Forums are a perfect example..................we can't even get past salvation,let alone making disciples.

We can't get past salvation......................disciples will not be made.

My church is reformed and I just told what they're doing.

That's how.

(Personally? I kind of think some Arminian churches are probably doing their work too. Just been so long since I was one of them, I wouldn't know.)

 

[Sophia]

There are still many many solid congregations all over the world.
Just because some popular "churches" are doing these things, does not mean that we as Believers need to change our attitude or strategies.

There is a point in being culturally relevant. Especially because Jesus Christ was; in telling parables, and in individual conversational response.

The wolves are a guarantee. They always show up. They always make a scene.
Our job is to remain firm on the Foundation.

 

[oldthennew]

may we carry the steeple with us where ever we go, where ever we are at any given moment -
this is our duty, this is our yoke, and is one of the most blessed gifts that we will ever receive.....

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

What if some of those courageous men and women who raise their voices are run out of church for doing the same?

Been there. Done that.

What next?

Great question, JitC. Slowly, I am becoming convinced -- not there yet, but close -- that if the modern American church won't do it, then we as individuals have to take up the mantle.

Our church is very slow to support men's ministry. We aren't into "theo-tainment" like many, but we do focus on getting kids into church to hear the Gospel at a very early age. Admirable, but not practical. If we bring in the kids and the parents don't stay, we have a 45% chance of bringing that child to a position he/she can accept Christ. If Mom stay, the odds go up to 65%. But if the men stay, we have a 95% chance of bringing that child to Christ, and discipling his parents so they raise a godly man and woman.

We need to preach to the men. A pastor here in Lee's Summit, Missouri has written a pamphlet, "Why minister to men?" It details why men's ministry has to be the most vital outreach of the church, and yet most churches give it lip service only.

If we preach to the men, the women will eavesdrop, and the kids will catch the impact. We reach the whole family. But churches have given up on men, from what I can tell. Monthly breakfasts, fantasy football, golf tournaments, and the occasional (read: "rare") weekend retreat are not sufficient to deliver the Gospel into the head, heart, and hands of the average man.

So I'm considering starting my own men's ministry. In my work, I daily see the devastation that sin brings to the family, through the husband/father. Men are loners. They need to learn trust and fellowship. Men are directionless. They need to learn how to seek direction. Men are stubborn. They need to learn submission to their heavenly Father.

The church won't do it, so I will. I'm not anxious to do so, but as long as the modern American church ignores the key to bringing a whole family to Christ, somebody's gotta do it.

 

[atwhatcost]

Great question, JitC. Slowly, I am becoming convinced -- not there yet, but close -- that if the modern American church won't do it, then we as individuals have to take up the mantle.

Our church is very slow to support men's ministry. We aren't into "theo-tainment" like many, but we do focus on getting kids into church to hear the Gospel at a very early age. Admirable, but not practical. If we bring in the kids and the parents don't stay, we have a 45% chance of bringing that child to a position he/she can accept Christ. If Mom stay, the odds go up to 65%. But if the men stay, we have a 95% chance of bringing that child to Christ, and discipling his parents so they raise a godly man and woman.

We need to preach to the men. A pastor here in Lee's Summit, Missouri has written a pamphlet, "Why minister to men?" It details why men's ministry has to be the most vital outreach of the church, and yet most churches give it lip service only.

If we preach to the men, the women will eavesdrop, and the kids will catch the impact. We reach the whole family. But churches have given up on men, from what I can tell. Monthly breakfasts, fantasy football, golf tournaments, and the occasional (read: "rare") weekend retreat are not sufficient to deliver the Gospel into the head, heart, and hands of the average man.

So I'm considering starting my own men's ministry. In my work, I daily see the devastation that sin brings to the family, through the husband/father. Men are loners. They need to learn trust and fellowship. Men are directionless. They need to learn how to seek direction. Men are stubborn. They need to learn submission to their heavenly Father.

The church won't do it, so I will. I'm not anxious to do so, but as long as the modern American church ignores the key to bringing a whole family to Christ, somebody's gotta do it.

Just remember one thing -- not all people are in families. Singles count.

 

[Willie-T]

Great question, JitC. Slowly, I am becoming convinced -- not there yet, but close -- that if the modern American church won't do it, then we as individuals have to take up the mantle.

Our church is very slow to support men's ministry. We aren't into "theo-tainment" like many, but we do focus on getting kids into church to hear the Gospel at a very early age. Admirable, but not practical. If we bring in the kids and the parents don't stay, we have a 45% chance of bringing that child to a position he/she can accept Christ. If Mom stay, the odds go up to 65%. But if the men stay, we have a 95% chance of bringing that child to Christ, and discipling his parents so they raise a godly man and woman.

We need to preach to the men. A pastor here in Lee's Summit, Missouri has written a pamphlet, "Why minister to men?" It details why men's ministry has to be the most vital outreach of the church, and yet most churches give it lip service only.

If we preach to the men, the women will eavesdrop, and the kids will catch the impact. We reach the whole family. But churches have given up on men, from what I can tell. Monthly breakfasts, fantasy football, golf tournaments, and the occasional (read: "rare") weekend retreat are not sufficient to deliver the Gospel into the head, heart, and hands of the average man.

So I'm considering starting my own men's ministry. In my work, I daily see the devastation that sin brings to the family, through the husband/father. Men are loners. They need to learn trust and fellowship. Men are directionless. They need to learn how to seek direction. Men are stubborn. They need to learn submission to their heavenly Father.

The church won't do it, so I will. I'm not anxious to do so, but as long as the modern American church ignores the key to bringing a whole family to Christ, somebody's gotta do it.

A key point that we would do well to remember in MANY areas. "The Church" is not just a collective group. Each of us, individually, is also "The Church".... and we needn't sit back, and say: "Why don't THEY....... ?" or "THEY should...."

 

[Yet]

The 'church' has morphed into a country 'seeker friendly' dues paying club. Nothing wrong with brothers and sisters bowling together but the NT dynamic has been lost long ago, giving way to Grecian pagan ideas that quench the Holy Spirit and confines Christ to the back of the bus, and ties the hands and gags the mouths of the every member body.

The gifts and functions of the folks are set on the back burner and the saints remain students that never ever graduate unto the fullness of the stature of Christ, every part nourishing the whole.
Ministries going untapped because one professional 'does it all' for a filthy lucre check! Hard words? Yep! But scriptural nonetheless!
Discipleship be hung. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty and growth. All things NT on this have been jettisoned for the traditions of men and doctrines of demons confining the saints to pew sitting and deadness. Broken record strikes again. Smile.

 

[Willie-T]

Boy, you are so totally under-informed.
Google... "The Vineyard Fellowship. Everyone gets to play."
[video=youtube;td5lsZ597lc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td5lsZ597lc[/video]

 

[Willie-T]

[video=youtube;tdih3G99pew]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdih3G99pew[/video]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

A key point that we would do well to remember in MANY areas. "The Church" is not just a collective group. Each of us, individually, is also "The Church".... and we needn't sit back, and say: "Why don't THEY....... ?" or "THEY should...."

While I get your point, Willie, the local church is specifically designed, on the first-century model, to encourage, equip, and send forth those who do the work, and the base of that work was supposed to be in that local church.

Our problem today is control freaks in the pulpit, and his assistants tend to be the same way. They very carefully guard what is associated with their church, and if it isn't exactly along the lines of their ideas -- and particularly if it doesn't fit their "programming" -- it gets nixed.

If we encounter that, we must do what we believe God is directing us to do. I haven't encountered exactly that attitude in my church, but as I say, men's ministry is an afterthought, and it shouldn't be. Men are the key to the family. Bring the men to the throne of God, the rest of the family, especially the children, will follow.

 

[Willie-T]

While I get your point, Willie, the local church is specifically designed, on the first-century model, to encourage, equip, and send forth those who do the work, and the base of that work was supposed to be in that local church.

Our problem today is control freaks in the pulpit, and his assistants tend to be the same way. They very carefully guard what is associated with their church, and if it isn't exactly along the lines of their ideas -- and particularly if it doesn't fit their "programming" -- it gets nixed.

If we encounter that, we must do what we believe God is directing us to do. I haven't encountered exactly that attitude in my church, but as I say, men's ministry is an afterthought, and it shouldn't be. Men are the key to the family. Bring the men to the throne of God, the rest of the family, especially the children, will follow.

I don't experience that. Did you look at the videos I posted? (You can risk it.... they are only a few minutes long, combined........ None of their "False Gospels" will infect you in that short a time.)

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I don't experience that.

Many do, and that includes some Vineyard churches.

Did you look at the videos I posted? (You can risk it.... they are only a few minutes long, combined........ None of their "False Gospels" will infect you in that short a time.)

The problem I see there is that many of the people who feel "called" get "sent out" before they are ready, or before it is determined they really are called. Yes, I know, God can equip anyone, but if a person is going to take responsibility for a ministry, they better by truly called, well equipped, and biblically foundational, or they will fail miserably.

I've no doubt you are able to do the work, Willie. You impress me with your knowledge and commitment. Many, across the board in all churches, want to do the work without really knowing what they're doing, and shouldn't be sent.

 

[Michael47]

The 'church' has morphed into a country 'seeker friendly' dues paying club. Nothing wrong with brothers and sisters bowling together but the NT dynamic has been lost long ago, giving way to Grecian pagan ideas that quench the Holy Spirit and confines Christ to the back of the bus, and ties the hands and gags the mouths of the every member body.

The gifts and functions of the folks are set on the back burner and the saints remain students that never ever graduate unto the fullness of the stature of Christ, every part nourishing the whole.
Ministries going untapped because one professional 'does it all' for a filthy lucre check! Hard words? Yep! But scriptural nonetheless!
Discipleship be hung. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty and growth. All things NT on this have been jettisoned for the traditions of men and doctrines of demons confining the saints to pew sitting and deadness. Broken record strikes again. Smile.

Please speak for yourself because you are not describing my church

 

[Willie-T]

Many do, and that includes some Vineyard churches.

The problem I see there is that many of the people who feel "called" get "sent out" before they are ready, or before it is determined they really are called. Yes, I know, God can equip anyone, but if a person is going to take responsibility for a ministry, they better by truly called, well equipped, and biblically foundational, or they will fail miserably.

I've no doubt you are able to do the work, Willie. You impress me with your knowledge and commitment. Many, across the board in all churches, want to do the work without really knowing what they're doing, and shouldn't be sent.

As I said, did you look at the videos? In the second one, she clearly says that often more training or practice is involved.... But people are not excluded from trying simply because they have not gone through a church-required requisite.