What if you die before water baptism?
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yes John was of the leviticle line of preists he was the last prophet of the Old Testament promised To precede the messiah and prepare the people for him through the knowledge of remission of sins
“For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist:
but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
Luke 7:28 KJV
John was beheaded before he could be born again.
“The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Malachi 3:1 KJV
“As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee.
…John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. ( Jesus hasn’t yet been revealed or began to preach the gospel but his predecessor has arrived )
And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;”
Mark 1:2, 4-6
Jesus says John is the promised prophet at the end of the Old Testament Elijah who was to come
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
thats the last two verses of the ot prophets Jesus was explaining about john to his disciples that believed him
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
john is a unique figure in prophecy he is the last prophet of the Old Testament order calling Israel to repentance warning then for the final time
“as it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight. Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”
Luke 3:4, 7-9 KJV
Also he was carrying the message of Jesus and the kingdom of heaven being near to come forth with Jesus the messiah
“In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judæa, and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah , saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.”
Matthew 3:1-3 KJV
John is actually a figure who was foretold himself so I’m sure there’s alot to him given the things Jesus said of him several really and what to prophecies like this one say
“Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
….Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.”
Isaiah 40:1, 3-5, 10-11 KJV
The prophecies of johns birth in luke also agree with what jesus is saying of john of the leviticle line as you say there to that point
Where one testement is being fulfilled another is being given and the audience is being expanded to all people who hear and believe the gospel of our lord
Im sorry to run on sister john is really a orettt prominent figure regarding israel and leviticle heritage is part of it as your saying there
“For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist:
but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
Luke 7:28 KJV
John was beheaded before he could be born again.
“The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Malachi 3:1 KJV
“As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee.
…John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. ( Jesus hasn’t yet been revealed or began to preach the gospel but his predecessor has arrived )
And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;”
Mark 1:2, 4-6
Jesus says John is the promised prophet at the end of the Old Testament Elijah who was to come
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
Malachi 4:5-6 KJV
thats the last two verses of the ot prophets Jesus was explaining about john to his disciples that believed him
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 11:13-15 KJV
john is a unique figure in prophecy he is the last prophet of the Old Testament order calling Israel to repentance warning then for the final time
“as it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight. Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”
Luke 3:4, 7-9 KJV
Also he was carrying the message of Jesus and the kingdom of heaven being near to come forth with Jesus the messiah
“In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judæa, and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah , saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight.”
Matthew 3:1-3 KJV
John is actually a figure who was foretold himself so I’m sure there’s alot to him given the things Jesus said of him several really and what to prophecies like this one say
“Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
….Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.”
Isaiah 40:1, 3-5, 10-11 KJV
The prophecies of johns birth in luke also agree with what jesus is saying of john of the leviticle line as you say there to that point
Where one testement is being fulfilled another is being given and the audience is being expanded to all people who hear and believe the gospel of our lord
Im sorry to run on sister john is really a orettt prominent figure regarding israel and leviticle heritage is part of it as your saying there
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Our covenant is based upon Hods mercy and also his truth working together to change the believer from rebellion and mortality that ends in death , into a child of the living God born of his spirit and washed in his blood but repentance is part of it
remember how David committed many sins he committed coveting another man’s wife , he committed adultery with another man’s wife , he lied and deceived trying to cover over his sins then He ordered the man’s death who’s wife he had impregnated
Among those sins several under the law of Moses require a death sentence such as adultery
“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
Leviticus 20:10 KJV
david committed adultery after he was chosen as king he exploited his power as king actually to facilitate this act of adultery after he coveted uriah the Hittites wife ( who was a good and faithful israelite )
david bitterly and desperately repented ( read his psalms such as chapter 51 )
Also Around this time God was speaking about another covenant that would come in the future that he would make with those who repented
“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
Isaiah 55:3 KJV
But this new covenant required repentance
“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”
Isaiah 55:6-8 KJV
God is merciful to a thousand generations but he’s also constantly telling mankind if they don’t stop sinning they will die
remember how David committed many sins he committed coveting another man’s wife , he committed adultery with another man’s wife , he lied and deceived trying to cover over his sins then He ordered the man’s death who’s wife he had impregnated
Among those sins several under the law of Moses require a death sentence such as adultery
“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
Leviticus 20:10 KJV
david committed adultery after he was chosen as king he exploited his power as king actually to facilitate this act of adultery after he coveted uriah the Hittites wife ( who was a good and faithful israelite )
david bitterly and desperately repented ( read his psalms such as chapter 51 )
Also Around this time God was speaking about another covenant that would come in the future that he would make with those who repented
“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
Isaiah 55:3 KJV
But this new covenant required repentance
“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”
Isaiah 55:6-8 KJV
God is merciful to a thousand generations but he’s also constantly telling mankind if they don’t stop sinning they will die
“So what is the point in confessing your sins”
“When I kept silence, my bones waxed old Through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: My moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
I acknowledged my sin unto thee, And mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; And thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: Surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.”
Psalm 32:3-6 KJV
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. ….Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. ….
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts:
and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Isaiah 55:1, 3, 6-7 KJV
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
“When I kept silence, my bones waxed old Through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: My moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
I acknowledged my sin unto thee, And mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; And thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: Surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.”
Psalm 32:3-6 KJV
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. ….Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. ….
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts:
and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
Isaiah 55:1, 3, 6-7 KJV
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
I was thinking in terms of Jesus being baptized, i.e., the change in priesthood from Levitical to Jesus (our high priest).
Which also necessitated a change in the law, as per Scripture .
Which also necessitated a change in the law, as per Scripture .
And when Jesus came out of the water, ...the heavens were opened, and He saw the heavens open, and the Spirit of God descending like a dove and rested on Him, and a voice from heave said, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'
Jesus is our high priest, who (now) baptizes (the baptism that now saves us).
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The sins of the world are very much like a lamb in different ways,
For instance you can be inflicted by sin.
And sin first entered Adam.
And sin stayed in blood, and the sons of Adam where born into sin who inherited sin like a lamb.
In thees cases a type of lamb already exists in all of us because we are carrying the sin of our ancestors.
But then came a special lamb who took away the sin's of Adam.
And the when this lamb became a part of man, and for those who received the spirit of the lamb, they too became special lamb, and also took away the sin's of the world.
The idea is here that you also have it within you to be a lamb for sinners, and ye could be a lamb that has the authority to forgive.
For Jesus said I tell you that the son of man can forgive sin.
And now the son of man has special lambs.
So now ye can forgive sin.
For instance you can be inflicted by sin.
And sin first entered Adam.
And sin stayed in blood, and the sons of Adam where born into sin who inherited sin like a lamb.
In thees cases a type of lamb already exists in all of us because we are carrying the sin of our ancestors.
But then came a special lamb who took away the sin's of Adam.
And the when this lamb became a part of man, and for those who received the spirit of the lamb, they too became special lamb, and also took away the sin's of the world.
The idea is here that you also have it within you to be a lamb for sinners, and ye could be a lamb that has the authority to forgive.
For Jesus said I tell you that the son of man can forgive sin.
And now the son of man has special lambs.
So now ye can forgive sin.
Yes, I was starting to feel we have been basically saying the same thing. I have been thinking about our conversation and wondered this.
If you proclaimed Jesus to someone and when they believed they asked you, what do I need to do? What would you tell them? That's what happened to Peter in Acts 2. Would your answer be like his. If not, why are they different.
If you proclaimed Jesus to someone and when they believed they asked you, what do I need to do? What would you tell them? That's what happened to Peter in Acts 2. Would your answer be like his. If not, why are they different.
My answer would be different because Peter was dealing with Jews, whereas we are largely dealing with Gentiles who do not know the scripture or the meanings of symbols. Certainly, baptism would come, but first they would need to understand what it meant, or they'd be in a similar state to the disciples of John that Paul re-baptised (who had undergone a baptism of repentance, but had not believed in Christ the saviour).
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I'm sorry but that doesn't answer my question and says nothing about baptism. This was your statement about baptism: baptism is just an outward manifestation of the faith through which by grace, we have already been saved
Could you please point me to a verse/passage in God's word that tells us that? I'm not aware of one.
I will make a claim about baptism and reference the scripture that I believe supports said claim.
I believe baptism washes away our sins.
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Could you please point me to a verse/passage in God's word that tells us that? I'm not aware of one.
I will make a claim about baptism and reference the scripture that I believe supports said claim.
I believe baptism washes away our sins.
16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Those men in Acts 19 were not disciples of John but of Apollos. At the end of chapter 18 Apollos comes to Ephesus and preaches Jesus accurately with one exception. He only knew John's baptism. After he leaves and Paul comes to Ephesus, he meets these men. He asks them did they receive the HS when they believed? “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” Paul recognizes them as believers.
He doesn't preach Jesus to them because they're already believers. He only teaches them about baptism. The difference between John's and being baptized in the name of Jesus. Notice he doesn't give them gifts until after he baptizes them in the name of Jesus.
He doesn't preach Jesus to them because they're already believers. He only teaches them about baptism. The difference between John's and being baptized in the name of Jesus. Notice he doesn't give them gifts until after he baptizes them in the name of Jesus.
If true circumcision is of the heart, and physical circumcision is simply a symbol of the cleansing of our hearts which takes place in true circumcision, doesn't it also follow that baptism is simply a symbol of the Christian being immersed into Christ?
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The spiritual baptism washes away our sins, just as the circumcision of the heart puts off the body of the sins of the flesh - the foreskin of the heart. However, physical circumcision has no effect on the heart, just as physical baptism doesn't wash away sin.
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The spiritual baptism washes away our sins, just as the circumcision of the heart puts off the body of the sins of the flesh - the foreskin of the heart. However, physical circumcision has no effect on the heart, just as physical baptism doesn't wash away sin.
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
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I believe baptism is necessary, but I do not hold to baptism replacing circumcision. Circumcision was a sign 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. .
The bible never tells us baptism is a sign. In our congregation currently, I probably have only seen maybe one- or two-members baptisms. If it's a sign, it's a bad one.
The bible tells us many things about baptism. Here is one.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
The bible never tells us baptism is a sign. In our congregation currently, I probably have only seen maybe one- or two-members baptisms. If it's a sign, it's a bad one.
The bible tells us many things about baptism. Here is one.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We're not saved by our works - solely through Christ Jesus. Anyone claiming we have to do any work for our salvation - including baptism - is preaching a different gospel. Works are evidence of our saving faith - yes. If we have saving faith, we will get baptised. But works are not required for salvation - salvation is purely through Christ's work on our behalf.
I suggest Paul is making a larger point here and this can't be applied to baptism. Jew's were circumcised at 8 days old. Their heart was not in it. The bible tells us circumcision is a sign. If baptism is a sign, then the bible would surely would tell us but I've never read that. To take a verse about circumcision and apply it to baptism is reaching. The bible tells us a lot about baptism.
There is no such thing as spiritual baptism. The bible doesn't tell us about a spiritual baptism.
There is no such thing as spiritual baptism. The bible doesn't tell us about a spiritual baptism.