What if you die before water baptism?
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Yes, they are symbolic
but in Romans 6 Paul is telling us what happened.. That is not symbolic, it is literal.
It bs because of the fact that God baptized us into Christ and his death, that we are able to walk in newness of life.. That had nothing to do with water baptism.
That is why I doubt it could be both.
but in Romans 6 Paul is telling us what happened.. That is not symbolic, it is literal.
It bs because of the fact that God baptized us into Christ and his death, that we are able to walk in newness of life.. That had nothing to do with water baptism.
That is why I doubt it could be both.
Let's bring this topic here so we don't clutter the other thread. 
In post #19 i said:
This is my understanding of Salvation.
So when someone asks me "Where do babies go when they die"? I say "I don't know".
I say that because i don't know where adults go either, including myself.
Does this mean i'm a Universalist? Absolutely not! It's simply "I don't know."
I hope Hitler doesn't end up in Heaven but i'm not God, so i don't know. I don't say "Everyone ends up in Heaven" and i don't say "If you do these 20 things according to my interpretation you GO to Heaven and everyone else goes to Hell"
I hope this answers your inquiry and you can file it under "Interesting things".
In post #19 i said:
This is my understanding of Salvation.
So when someone asks me "Where do babies go when they die"? I say "I don't know".
I say that because i don't know where adults go either, including myself.
Does this mean i'm a Universalist? Absolutely not! It's simply "I don't know."
I hope Hitler doesn't end up in Heaven but i'm not God, so i don't know. I don't say "Everyone ends up in Heaven" and i don't say "If you do these 20 things according to my interpretation you GO to Heaven and everyone else goes to Hell"
I hope this answers your inquiry and you can file it under "Interesting things".
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God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whom they call Father commanded John The Baptist to Baptize so that people will not face damnation in hell.
ISAIAH 40:3-4
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight [a]in the desert
A highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
MATTHEW 3:1-3
3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
MATTHEW 3:10-11
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST, and WITH FIRE:
mmm
God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whom they call Father commanded John The Baptist to Baptize so that people will not face damnation in hell.
ISAIAH 40:3-4
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight [a]in the desert
A highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
MATTHEW 3:1-3
3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
MATTHEW 3:10-11
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST, and WITH FIRE:
mmm
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According to the Lord, the water baptism is required
MATTHEW 3:10-11
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST, and WITH FIRE:
This is why every denominations in Christianity requires Water Baptism.
Since it is written that John The Baptist is baptizing in the river of Jordan. So it is very clear that John the Baptist is using LITERAL WATER.
In water baptism, the Holy Ghost will sit upon the person being baptize.
MATTHEW 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
The Holy Ghost is the Teacher alone:
1 JOHN 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
But every denomination in Christianity have their own Doctrines and way for salvation. It means using Literal Water in baptism is not what John The Baptist used.
Because with regard to water, Jesus is speaking in parable.
Here are couple of Examples.
Look at the equivalent meaning of the Temple into man understanding about Temple.
JOHN 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Take a look at what Jesus said about Leaven Bread. The understanding of man is very far.
MATTHEW 16:6-12
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
This is why Jesus why it is written, they call Jesus Rabbi or Teacher. Because he must expound first the meaning before we intend to follow the law.
This is what Jesus did to his disciples.
MARK 4:34
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Yes, only Jesus could reveal the meaning of the water used by John the Baptist in Baptism.
And yes, Water Baptism is required for Salvation.
It is the Water expounded by Jesus to his disciples and not the Water after the understanding of Men.
According to the Lord, the water baptism is required
MATTHEW 3:10-11
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST, and WITH FIRE:
This is why every denominations in Christianity requires Water Baptism.
Since it is written that John The Baptist is baptizing in the river of Jordan. So it is very clear that John the Baptist is using LITERAL WATER.
In water baptism, the Holy Ghost will sit upon the person being baptize.
MATTHEW 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
The Holy Ghost is the Teacher alone:
1 JOHN 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
But every denomination in Christianity have their own Doctrines and way for salvation. It means using Literal Water in baptism is not what John The Baptist used.
Because with regard to water, Jesus is speaking in parable.
Here are couple of Examples.
Look at the equivalent meaning of the Temple into man understanding about Temple.
JOHN 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Take a look at what Jesus said about Leaven Bread. The understanding of man is very far.
MATTHEW 16:6-12
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
This is why Jesus why it is written, they call Jesus Rabbi or Teacher. Because he must expound first the meaning before we intend to follow the law.
This is what Jesus did to his disciples.
MARK 4:34
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Yes, only Jesus could reveal the meaning of the water used by John the Baptist in Baptism.
And yes, Water Baptism is required for Salvation.
It is the Water expounded by Jesus to his disciples and not the Water after the understanding of Men.
Addressing the scenarios presented requires an understanding and appreciation of the perspective that views water baptism as essential for salvation, while also recognizing God's sovereignty and mercy. From the standpoint of Christian traditions that uphold baptismal regeneration, water baptism is indeed considered a critical sacrament, often based on passages such as Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins," and Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
The Case of Immediate Death After Conversion: In the instance of someone who turns to Christ in their final moments, without the opportunity for baptism, it is vital to remember the overarching theme of God's grace throughout Scripture. God, in His omniscience and mercy, understands the true intentions and limitations of every human heart. The story of the thief on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43) is often cited in discussions like these; despite his inability to be baptized, Jesus promised him paradise based on his expressed faith. This suggests that while baptism is a command and normative for Christians, God's grace can operate beyond our human limitations and constraints.
The Scenario of Isolation: Similarly, for someone who comes to faith in isolation, without any means to be baptized, the principle of God's grace and sovereignty applies. Christian tradition affirms that while we are bound to the sacraments as a means of grace, God Himself is not bound by these sacraments. The heart of God, as revealed through Jesus Christ, prioritizes the sincere repentance and faith of an individual over ritual compliance when circumstances render obedience impossible.
In both cases, the emphasis should be on the mercy and understanding of God, who sees the heart and knows the genuine faith of each person. While baptism is indeed significant and commanded, these scenarios illustrate that exceptions exist where the intent to obey, coupled with faith in Christ, is acknowledged by God even when the sacrament itself cannot be administered.
The Case of Immediate Death After Conversion: In the instance of someone who turns to Christ in their final moments, without the opportunity for baptism, it is vital to remember the overarching theme of God's grace throughout Scripture. God, in His omniscience and mercy, understands the true intentions and limitations of every human heart. The story of the thief on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43) is often cited in discussions like these; despite his inability to be baptized, Jesus promised him paradise based on his expressed faith. This suggests that while baptism is a command and normative for Christians, God's grace can operate beyond our human limitations and constraints.
The Scenario of Isolation: Similarly, for someone who comes to faith in isolation, without any means to be baptized, the principle of God's grace and sovereignty applies. Christian tradition affirms that while we are bound to the sacraments as a means of grace, God Himself is not bound by these sacraments. The heart of God, as revealed through Jesus Christ, prioritizes the sincere repentance and faith of an individual over ritual compliance when circumstances render obedience impossible.
In both cases, the emphasis should be on the mercy and understanding of God, who sees the heart and knows the genuine faith of each person. While baptism is indeed significant and commanded, these scenarios illustrate that exceptions exist where the intent to obey, coupled with faith in Christ, is acknowledged by God even when the sacrament itself cannot be administered.