What is the crime Ishmael commited ?

[PeaceBeUponYou]

The story of Ishmael as told in the old testament seems to me very difficult to understand ...
Ishmael amongst all the people that ever lived on the earth, is the only one who seems to bear a curse on himself as well as on his childs and grandchilds and whoever might come from his progeny seems to be D-amned in advance !

What was The Big Crime Ishmael commited when he was a kid ?



Peace be upon you

 

[phil36]

The story of Ishmael as told in the old testament seems to me very difficult to understand ...
Ishmael amongst all the people that ever lived on the earth, is the only one who seems to bear a curse on himself as well as on his childs and grandchilds and whoever might come from his progeny seems to be D-amned in advance !

What was The Big Crime Ishmael commited when he was a kid ?



Peace be upon you

He was a sinner like us all, born with a sin Nature. God promised Abraham a multitude of descendants, and in particular the line/seed of the Christ.

Through disobedience in not trusting God, that Abraham and Sarah would bear the child God had promised, Abraham slept with Hagar, However this was not the child God had promised. But because he was of Abraham he also was promised to be a a nation. However, we see that this nation was not under the blessing of the covenant (Abrahamic). thus did not have God's favour.

Ishmael, was like us all he had a sin nature, God never chose him He chose Isaac, not because of anything they had done. But Isaac was the son that God had promised would happen.

So the question is? did Ishmael do anything to deserve his treatment is God unfair? Esau is the same, did Esau deserve his treatment? God's rejection?

we all deserve death, 'for the wages of sin are death'. yet through God's mercy He chooses to save some.

Phil

 

[loveschild]

His mom served false gods. Worshipped demons. Thats all it took. The destruction to those people is because the don't worship the only God.
The good news is they can all repent.

 

[PeaceBeUponYou]

phil36, your explanation makes some sense. but there is Big difference between the story of Esau and that of Ishmael

His mom served false gods. Worshipped demons. Thats all it took. The destruction to those people is because the don't worship the only God.
The good news is they can all repent.

This doesn`t make sense, no where it is written that Hagar worshipped the demons nor false gods.
Hagar is considered as a slave women and wathever the error the mom did, the kid should not be held responsible for it ... it wouldn`t be Just, for the kid.

9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, laughing.

10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

in this quote it seems to me that the reason of Ishmael and his mom to be Cast out, was because Ishmael laughed. many rabbinical scholars said that the laugh of Ishmael was a criminal laugh, because it was a moking laugh.
so is this the crime Ishmael commited ?

The good news is they can all repent.

That is what amazes Me ...it seems that in the case of Ishmael, not only he commited the big crime of laughing at Sarah`s child while he was in the cradle but he also can`t repent. Ishmael and whoever or wathever may come from his progeny is already condemned in advance. In other words :

"Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name Ishmael; because The Lord has given heed to your affliction. He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen."

(Genesis 16:11-12 RSV).

 

[Consumed]

He was a sinner like us all, born with a sin Nature. God promised Abraham a multitude of descendants, and in particular the line/seed of the Christ.

Through disobedience in not trusting God, that Abraham and Sarah would bear the child God had promised, Abraham slept with Hagar, However this was not the child God had promised. But because he was of Abraham he also was promised to be a a nation. However, we see that this nation was not under the blessing of the covenant (Abraham). thus did not have God's favor.

Ishmael, was like us all he had a sin nature, God never chose him He chose Isaac, not because of anything they had done. But Isaac was the son that God had promised would happen.

So the question is? did Ishmael do anything to deserve his treatment is God unfair? Esau is the same, did Esau deserve his treatment? God's rejection?

we all deserve death, 'for the wages of sin are death'. yet through God's mercy He chooses to save some.

Phil

what is interesting is God used(s) Ishmael to lead His people into captivity when they,as a nation, turn their back on God. I feel its not so much as that God would reject them outright, but became a part of His redemptive plan for all, for out of the evil God will bring good from it. To suggest that they are rejected could imply they are not part of His redemptive plan, even though he was born to Hagar Gods promise to Abraham could not be taken back, His word does not return void with exceptions when He speaks, for Ishmael still enjoyed Gods providence in becoming a nation and being blessed in the land regardless that he wasn't born to Sarah.


as for Esau, he sold His inheritance for a morsel of bread, his selfishness to feed his own belly was more important than honoring his father, as is for us if we do the same, "MacDonald's Christianity" eat in or takeaway - now,and hows Jacobs form, he cheated Esau out of it to boot and still got the blessing from his father (Jacob=schemer) , makes one wonder yet know His ways are truly not ours, however being God, nothing is impossible

 

[PeaceBeUponYou]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate

I believe both Isaac and Ishmael were blessed by God. Of course the convenant was made with Isaac. but when i look at the life of Ishmael, it seems to me that he was blessed from his birth to his death. He did not earn God`s anger nor was he punished by God.

What is interesting is when you look at the etymology of the words Ishmael and Isaac

Ishmael means in Hebrew and Arabic: [the one] God has heard

Isaac means in Hebrew and Arabic: [the one] who [will] laugh

I would like to direct your attention on that, i mean after all, these names are not man made names. It is God who chose to give them these names. and he then informed Abraham of the names that shall be given to his sons.

I would like to hear what you think of that. Why Isaac`s name mean: laugh ! and why ishmael`s name mean: God heard ?

Peace be upon you,

 

[Consumed]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate

I believe both Isaac and Ishmael were blessed by God. Of course the convenant was made with Isaac. but when i look at the life of Ishmael, it seems to me that he was blessed from his birth to his death. He did not earn God`s anger nor was he punished by God.

What is interesting is when you look at the etymology of the words Ishmael and Isaac

Ishmael means in Hebrew and Arabic: [the one] God has heard

Isaac means in Hebrew and Arabic: [the one] who [will] laugh

I would like to direct your attention on that, i mean after all, these names are not man made names. It is God who chose to give them these names. and he then informed Abraham of the names that shall be given to his sons.

I would like to hear what you think of that. Why Isaac`s name mean: laugh ! and why ishmael`s name mean: God heard ?

Peace be upon you,

thats interesting, having only just pondered on it breifly my initial response would be that "isaac"(laugh) is God laughing at the devil, and "ishmael"(God has heard) is that God hears their cry too. Dont get entangled in whats going on today or how we veiw "ishmael" his seed is the islamic faith, though we might not agree with their religion, i have always stated that jews,christians and moslems all call abraham their father. we call islamists all kinds of names yet forget that "christians" fought and killed thousand in the name of God too, who are we to judge, God knows the truth and whats what, we all will be surprised one day in heaven if ever we enquire about the truth of world history as given by man to events surrounding wars, one will ultimately find that Jesus' word is true, the root of all evil is the love of money" its just convinient to get religion as the sounding board to achieve it.............................love thy neighbour, hate satan

 

[phil36]

phil36, your explanation makes some sense. but there is Big difference between the story of Esau and that of Ishmael



This doesn`t make sense, no where it is written that Hagar worshipped the demons nor false gods.
Hagar is considered as a slave women and wathever the error the mom did, the kid should not be held responsible for it ... it wouldn`t be Just, for the kid.



in this quote it seems to me that the reason of Ishmael and his mom to be Cast out, was because Ishmael laughed. many rabbinical scholars said that the laugh of Ishmael was a criminal laugh, because it was a moking laugh.
so is this the crime Ishmael commited ?


That is what amazes Me ...it seems that in the case of Ishmael, not only he commited the big crime of laughing at Sarah`s child while he was in the cradle but he also can`t repent. Ishmael and whoever or wathever may come from his progeny is already condemned in advance. In other words : (Genesis 16:11-12 RSV).

Hi Peacebeupon you, you have, made loveschilds comments sound like mIne???

 

[phil36]

what is interesting is God used(s) Ishmael to lead His people into captivity when they,as a nation, turn their back on God. I feel its not so much as that God would reject them outright, but became a part of His redemptive plan for all, for out of the evil God will bring good from it. To suggest that they are rejected could imply they are not part of His redemptive plan, even though he was born to Hagar Gods promise to Abraham could not be taken back, His word does not return void with exceptions when He speaks, for Ishmael still enjoyed Gods providence in becoming a nation and being blessed in the land regardless that he wasn't born to Sarah. I never said it didnt I said he would be a nation. When you look at God's dealings with Israel, you are forgetting one big thing, and that is the covenant model.. all throughout scripture this is important, for when the Israelite's are punished by God for not staying within the covenant .. what do they say time after time after time... God is steadfast. He alone is Faithful. If you cannot see the covenant framework then you are missing what is going on! you have basically said what I said, gut missed the link what was so important in Scripture 'The covenant'.

another point, we all enjoy God's providence, for it rains on the just and unjust alike. However, those who do not enjoy Christ are condemned (Christs own words not mine).


as for Esau, he sold His inheritance for a morsel of bread, his selfishness to feed his own belly was more important than honoring his father, as is for us if we do the same, "MacDonald's Christianity" eat in or takeaway - now,and hows Jacobs form, he cheated Esau out of it to boot and still got the blessing from his father (Jacob=schemer) , makes one wonder yet know His ways are truly not ours, however being God, nothing is impossible

All of creation is part of God's plan, this is true, and God will use anything or anyone He wants to accomplish His plan. Yet not all people will go to heaven, this we know as a fact, no matter how hard it is to think of it. when I use Esau, I use it in the idea that God Chose their siblings over them, even though they were the elder which was of great importance in those times.

Yep, I love how you show Jacob cheated His elder brother out of his inheritance, but what you forget to mention here is that God had already said the older will serve the younger (remember the covenant with Abraham? do you remember the seed? It is God's line to Christ not mans)!, nevertheless, Jacob was a cheat, and was a sinner like us all, yet God still bestowed His favour upon him and not Esau!

Lets focus on how you say God used these nations to punish? Yes He certainly did, he used ungodly pagan nations to punish Israel. For this was to bring His children back, a good parent always punishes their child for wrong doing, this was the effect of the COVENANT of LAW, the cursings and blessing???? Remember if you cannot grasp how important the covenant is or don't understand it, you will never understand the OT properly.

So although you are nearly right, you have missed the whole framework upon which God decided to use with His people and that is covenant! When Israel went wrong they invoked the cursings of the covenant, when they stayed within the covenant they received the blessings.

What we have to remember and most people even pastors/teachers miss this part, is that from God's promise with Abraham He has a seed line for His true son the Christ, Mans efforts and satans influence would never have changed this. there is a line of seed from Abraham to David to Christ.. This was a promise God made, God took the obligation of this covenant (Abrahamic), that is why we have 2 gospels showing the genealogy of Christ.

Israel is a type and shadow of the things to come, Christ is the true Israel fulfilling all things and we are adopted sons, ingrafted, not overtaking but ingrafted into the vine, Paul says wild olive branches grafted into a cultivated olive tree (Israel). we are now the Spiritual Israel, not the physical like the Hebrews, and through God's plans for His people and creation there will be a new Jerusalem.

Covenant is important in understanding God's redemptive History, the bible is not really about us, although sometimes we read it that way. It is about God. apart from creation itself, everything really kicks of with Abraham. nation,land,King,blessing to all nations (world) and this is like a Royal grant, God takes on the obligations.

Mt Sinai is altogether different, Israel take the obligations and the blessing,nation and land are linked with the blessings and cursings, and is temporal.

Howoever, through Abraham and God's promise to him, we have the ultimate King the true seed from Abraham, the Christ and we the sons of promise will inherit the land of promise the New Jerusalem at the end of the age.

If you read Paul this is his whole argument about gentiles and Jews. anyhow to really understand the OT you need to understand covenant. for this is how God deals with His people, and How the people live with God. I don't think there is a Psalm that doesn't mention it.. Steadfast!

Phil

 

[Mulehide]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate

I believe both Isaac and Ishmael were blessed by God. Of course the convenant was made with Isaac. but when i look at the life of Ishmael, it seems to me that he was blessed from his birth to his death. He did not earn God`s anger nor was he punished by God.

What is interesting is when you look at the etymology of the words Ishmael and Isaac

Ishmael means in Hebrew and Arabic: [the one] God has heard

Isaac means in Hebrew and Arabic: [the one] who [will] laugh

I would like to direct your attention on that, i mean after all, these names are not man made names. It is God who chose to give them these names. and he then informed Abraham of the names that shall be given to his sons.

I would like to hear what you think of that. Why Isaac`s name mean: laugh ! and why ishmael`s name mean: God heard ?

Peace be upon you,

After Hagar concieved, Sarai then despised Hagar and dealth harshly with her and Hagar fled. God then found Hagar alone by a well. He spoke to her and assured her that He had heard her cries and would bless her son as well. Ishmael, God heard, was constant affirmation to Hagar and those after her that no matter what happens in our life, God is truly "only a prayer away." (Gen. 16:1-16)

Similarly, when Sarah later heard that she would have a child in her old age. She laughed, and not a joyful laugh but a disbelieving laugh. Even still, Sarah did not believe the promises/word of God. Isaac, laughter, is a reminder for Sarah and those to come of the dangers when we do not trust God but rather take matters into our own hands. (Gen. 18:9-15 and 21:1-7)