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Angela, I apologize if I came off that way but I don't think those things at all. I regret setting my username as Hitchens and maybe I would come off less antigonistic without it. I have actually seen that debate more than once in fact along with many others and I certainly do acknowledge Craig argued very well and made good points. Hitchens did fail to address most of those points, I don't fully understand why since I've seen him respond to similar arguments in other encounters, but I disagree that these debates can be won by either side. The issue is in this case is neither side could ever definitively prove the other one wrong so generally, people leave with the same ideas with which they came in. I have never been as arrogant as to say there is no god or that anyone's wrong for living by and seeking jesus, nor do i necessarily believe such things.
My respect for Christopher Hitchens doesn't come so much from his anti-theism, but for his overall mission in life. He spent the last decade and a half of his life often openly challenging religion but he spent a much longer lifetime as a journalist traveling the world and fighting totalitarianism as he saw it. I totally see the beauty, the benefit and the truths of christianity but with some people, I also do see ills, negativity and people misrepresenting what christ was trulely about. This is why I'm here, to try to weed out what I see as non or counter productive messages in the text and find the deeper truth to it.
Too few christians I see legitimately strive to be christ-like
My respect for Christopher Hitchens doesn't come so much from his anti-theism, but for his overall mission in life. He spent the last decade and a half of his life often openly challenging religion but he spent a much longer lifetime as a journalist traveling the world and fighting totalitarianism as he saw it. I totally see the beauty, the benefit and the truths of christianity but with some people, I also do see ills, negativity and people misrepresenting what christ was trulely about. This is why I'm here, to try to weed out what I see as non or counter productive messages in the text and find the deeper truth to it.
Too few christians I see legitimately strive to be christ-like
The embolden statement is clear evidence that you are (in fact) against God. Simple truth. And, to believe that you would be well versed enough to question the Law handed down to Moses and be who you claim to be is not possible. If you come here misrepresenting who you are, and then expect people to believe you are sincere in your questions.......yeah, nah........
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prehbein, Are you implying that I'm not 22? Whether you believe me or not- I am 22, I do not wish to be insulting or antagonistic or disrespectful, and I do have a relationship and understanding of god. God as I understand him is not God as you understand him, but that doesn't mean we cant potentially learn from eachother. I don't identify with any one religion or necesarilly take what others say about god to be truth. But i learn what i can, I respect others beliefs, and above all I try and treat others with love as brothers and sisters
Sorry, your comments do not fit the profile you are trying to sell. And as for the emboldened above, there isn't much chance of that............sorry.......
When you question/deny the One True God, that in no way "respects" the beliefs of Christians. Just the opposite. It insults both God and Christians. Maybe this is a "learning moment" for you?
When you question/deny the One True God, that in no way "respects" the beliefs of Christians. Just the opposite. It insults both God and Christians. Maybe this is a "learning moment" for you?
So you have watched these debates already, yet you come in here with some very simplistic arguments about what sin is?
And how does a non-Christian, who admittedly does not know the Bible nor was raised in a Christian home know about what "Christ-like" means?
I want to believe you are sincere, but it confuses me when you admire someone like Hitchens in one breath, then condemn and judge people who are not up to your standard of "Christ-like."
Does this mean perhaps you are 22, and were raised in a Christian home? I find it extremely puzzling, because I went to Sunday school as a child, had a Christian grandmother, and when I came to Christ at age 26, I knew more about Hinduism and Buddhism than I did about the Bible or Christ.
And you know nothing about the spiritual journeys of people who have come to Christ. God saves us by his grace, and then spends the rest of our lives sanctifying us. We are not perfect, like Christ, until we see Jesus face to face. None of us is instantaneously perfect!
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." 1 Cor. 13:12
"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2
I have read a number of your posts here... gosh, I remember being twenty two; I hitch-hiked out west, from Toronto to Vancouver, with two friends and my guitar, and a knap sack on my back. I was young and restless, and reckless, too, but that was the very last time I ever hitch-hiked. When I was 24 I went to see the Monty Python movie, The Life of Brian, and I almost walked out because I was at first so offended, which puzzled me somewhat, since I did not consider myself to be a religious person or a Christian, although I had been brought up fairly strictly in that fashion... I rejected it all as a teenager. If you feel/believe you have a relationship with God then it is very likely He has a call on your life that will become more and more clear to you as you progress through your life and seek Him out. You may rest assured that He keeps His promises, and reveals Himself to those who diligently seek Him, even knowing that it is not really Him we are seeking at first, since we do not know Him, and have many preconceived prejudicial ideas about Him that actually prevent us from wanting to know the one true God.
You seem to have done some fairly serious research already. The internet is amazing in this regard, making so much available to us at any one time, given the proper motivations to follow through. I have learned so much just talking to people online in this fashion, not so much as I am speaking to you now, but on a couple of other sites where I have manly engaged with atheists who are fairly hostile to Christians/Christianity in particular, and religion in general. Your tone does not come across to me as theirs' does, no, not at all. With that said, consider the following:
Driving home at three o'clock in the morning it is easy to rationalize to yourself that it would be safer for you to get home as quickly as possible because you are tired, but you assume that nobody else is around to be impacted (no pun intended) by your speeding, which presents two problems: 1. If nobody else is around, there is nobody for you to harm but yourself, so speeding is not really justifiable. (Not to minimize any damage you might cause to yourself should an accident occur with a stationary object due to your tiredness.) 2. Assuming that nobody else is around to be impacted by speeding could be an assumption another driver makes. Outcome: two vehicles collide at high speeds or cause a horrific accident while attempting to avoid the other at high speeds. Or a pedestrian may think at 3 am that nobody is out on the streets this late and walks down the middle of the road where too late you see them. That is just one example of how your thinking is somewhat faulty.
You seem to have done some fairly serious research already. The internet is amazing in this regard, making so much available to us at any one time, given the proper motivations to follow through. I have learned so much just talking to people online in this fashion, not so much as I am speaking to you now, but on a couple of other sites where I have manly engaged with atheists who are fairly hostile to Christians/Christianity in particular, and religion in general. Your tone does not come across to me as theirs' does, no, not at all. With that said, consider the following:
Driving home at three o'clock in the morning it is easy to rationalize to yourself that it would be safer for you to get home as quickly as possible because you are tired, but you assume that nobody else is around to be impacted (no pun intended) by your speeding, which presents two problems: 1. If nobody else is around, there is nobody for you to harm but yourself, so speeding is not really justifiable. (Not to minimize any damage you might cause to yourself should an accident occur with a stationary object due to your tiredness.) 2. Assuming that nobody else is around to be impacted by speeding could be an assumption another driver makes. Outcome: two vehicles collide at high speeds or cause a horrific accident while attempting to avoid the other at high speeds. Or a pedestrian may think at 3 am that nobody is out on the streets this late and walks down the middle of the road where too late you see them. That is just one example of how your thinking is somewhat faulty.
Hmm! I hitched hiked to Vancouver from Edmonton when I was 16, 17, 18, and finally moved there when I was 19. I was thinking we were both in Vancouver at the same time, but then I moved to the interior of BC. Although I did come back annually to sell jewellry at craft fairs, till I became a musician, and then went back to school and finally God saved me.
Maybe we met somewhere??
Maybe we have met somewhere! Haha, that would be so awesome... and we are close in age, as well. Ah, the hippie life style... the years of not going anywhere without my guitar, all the jamming with friends... they were special days just because it was my youth, and we are only young once... but in reality, it was an extremely painful time for me. I was lost. I was baptized less than eleven years ago 
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Thanks Magenta, sincerely appreciate the kind and gentle tone I interpreted from what you wrote. I totally agree that the driving hypothetical i described is kinda stupid, I really just meant to insert any arbitrary reason to drive fast... maybe you left a stove on or a woman is going into labor or someone seriously injured you're taking to a hospital. The situation is irrelevant, my point was more that there can always be factors more important than established rules. That the importance of man-made laws (like everything else) is relative which in my mind translates to determining the right and wrong action becomes not so black and white. If its up to us to determine the wrong in any given situation than we become ceceptable to subjectivity and people greatly disagree about whats right and wrong, especially in the case of all sort of mental illness or people who've simply been led to believe crazy things. Or if its objective then the speed limit suddenly becomes more important than getting that friend to the hospital in time to save them. This is the dilemma for me; where truly is the source of morality or determining sin in a situation for which god has not given us a definitive answer?
and to p_rehbein,
Im not denying your God, I'm trying to learn how the bible would define sin here. Really it's more of a question about morality in general and since a christian derives morality from the word of god, I figure people here might be able to respond to me in a way that provokes new ideas for me or deeper understanding. No matter where someone comes from or what they believe, morality is an applicable discussion. You may have closed yourself off to the possibility that i might offer a perspective or idea or method of reason new to you but i certainly believe theres potential for me to learn from you. You chastise me for asking questions to learn about a christian perspective and dismiss it because im not well enough versed in scripture instead of offering a response. Why is it that you dont believe im 22?
and to p_rehbein,
Im not denying your God, I'm trying to learn how the bible would define sin here. Really it's more of a question about morality in general and since a christian derives morality from the word of god, I figure people here might be able to respond to me in a way that provokes new ideas for me or deeper understanding. No matter where someone comes from or what they believe, morality is an applicable discussion. You may have closed yourself off to the possibility that i might offer a perspective or idea or method of reason new to you but i certainly believe theres potential for me to learn from you. You chastise me for asking questions to learn about a christian perspective and dismiss it because im not well enough versed in scripture instead of offering a response. Why is it that you dont believe im 22?
You are welcome It is always a pleasure to meet a seeker, plus, you are being very respectful, which, quite frankly, compared to the people on the other sites I referred to, is really a delightfully refreshing rarity. I joined here less than two weeks ago! Overall I am liking it very much, even just being mostly in this forum (Bible Discussion), and I hope you likewise enjoy your time here and find it fruitful.
I understand. The definitive answer that God has given us through His revealed written Word is that we are to obey the laws of the land, and to treat others as being better than ourselves. This is admittedly not always an easy thing to do. The natural inclination of many is to look out for number one, put our needs first, and not seek the will of God, perhaps especially when in a crisis situation, feeling that time is of the essence. Or perhaps we are aware of God's will, but it seems to be too at odds with our own self will. Or maybe we have little to no inkling, and run our lives entirely on self will and people pleasing, both of which are recipes for disaster. The rules are established to help steer us away from potentially living such a life, and/or to protect ourselves from being overly influenced/impacted by people living such lives. (I needed to hear that.) That the ten commandments place God first and foremost informs us of how important it is to be God focused. Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all else will be added unto you. Submit to His will, and you have nothing to fear. He wants the best for all of us, knows what is best, certainly knows better than us. If you have a sense of being led by some spirit, try to stay tuned to that, follow that, investigate that. You will find out soon enough whether it be for or against you. God does have a plan for your life; the talents and abilities needed to fulfill your role are being developed through your life's challenges. I think you have a vision of what it is to be but are unsure of your next steps. Put your faith in Him and step out in confidence.
It is always a pleasure to meet a seeker, plus, you are being very respectful, which, quite frankly, compared to the people on the other sites I referred to, is really a delightfully refreshing rarity. I joined here less than two weeks ago! Overall I am liking it very much, even just being mostly in this forum (Bible Discussion), and I hope you likewise enjoy your time here and find it fruitful.I understand. The definitive answer that God has given us through His revealed written Word is that we are to obey the laws of the land, and to treat others as being better than ourselves. This is admittedly not always an easy thing to do. The natural inclination of many is to look out for number one, put our needs first, and not seek the will of God, perhaps especially when in a crisis situation, feeling that time is of the essence. Or perhaps we are aware of God's will, but it seems to be too at odds with our own self will. Or maybe we have little to no inkling, and run our lives entirely on self will and people pleasing, both of which are recipes for disaster. The rules are established to help steer us away from potentially living such a life, and/or to protect ourselves from being overly influenced/impacted by people living such lives. (I needed to hear that.) That the ten commandments place God first and foremost informs us of how important it is to be God focused. Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all else will be added unto you. Submit to His will, and you have nothing to fear. He wants the best for all of us, knows what is best, certainly knows better than us. If you have a sense of being led by some spirit, try to stay tuned to that, follow that, investigate that. You will find out soon enough whether it be for or against you. God does have a plan for your life; the talents and abilities needed to fulfill your role are being developed through your life's challenges. I think you have a vision of what it is to be but are unsure of your next steps. Put your faith in Him and step out in confidence.
By recognizing/stating that there are more than one God, you are denying God. Given your obvious level of intelligence (based on your highly advanced and developed vocabulary and writing skills for one who professes to be so young) I would think you would realize that.
As you were well versed enough in Scripture to put forth the discussion points from the Law of Moses, how is it now that you are not well versed enough now? I believe you know far more about the Word of God than you are pretending to here. The average atheist is well versed in Scripture, and they have numerous web sites which teach them the questions to ask, the points of Scripture to debate and how to do so. I suspect this isn't your first venture into the world of Christian Web Sites, and surely won't be your last.
Do I believe you are sincere? No. Simply because you have misrepresented who you actually are. When one starts by being dishonest, sincerity is left out in the cold. Do I believe you are 22 years old? No. Why? Experience in dealing with people pretending to be someone they are not on Christian Forums. Years of dealing with these people have taught me the little "tells" to look for in how a person composes their comments, and the level of vocabulary skills they display. These are an immediate give away. You should suggest to others who do such as this to design a course on how to become proficient in "young adult speak." At least you went with 22 this time..........instead of the usual 18 years of age that most who come here claim to be.
If you are going to claim an "upbringing" void of any and all things Christian/Biblical...........do not, do not, then go into a discussion of Biblical points. And surely do not pretend to have an understanding of what it is to "walk Christ-like." Dude, DEAD GIVE AWAY........seriously. Maybe you should go back and practice a bit more, refine your skills, adjust your Profile Information to fit the level of education revealed in your writing/vocabulary skills........oh, I don't know, at least the mid Thirties, and then come back and try again.
Yes, the "kinder, more respectful" atheist is a good touch, but you are not the first to use that approach. You are not even in the top 100 of those who have used this approach. While it does tend to keep you around longer, it never actually works. Just saying. Sooner or later, they all "slip" and let their "real selves" get the better of them.
As you were well versed enough in Scripture to put forth the discussion points from the Law of Moses, how is it now that you are not well versed enough now? I believe you know far more about the Word of God than you are pretending to here. The average atheist is well versed in Scripture, and they have numerous web sites which teach them the questions to ask, the points of Scripture to debate and how to do so. I suspect this isn't your first venture into the world of Christian Web Sites, and surely won't be your last.
Do I believe you are sincere? No. Simply because you have misrepresented who you actually are. When one starts by being dishonest, sincerity is left out in the cold. Do I believe you are 22 years old? No. Why? Experience in dealing with people pretending to be someone they are not on Christian Forums. Years of dealing with these people have taught me the little "tells" to look for in how a person composes their comments, and the level of vocabulary skills they display. These are an immediate give away. You should suggest to others who do such as this to design a course on how to become proficient in "young adult speak." At least you went with 22 this time..........instead of the usual 18 years of age that most who come here claim to be.
If you are going to claim an "upbringing" void of any and all things Christian/Biblical...........do not, do not, then go into a discussion of Biblical points. And surely do not pretend to have an understanding of what it is to "walk Christ-like." Dude, DEAD GIVE AWAY........seriously. Maybe you should go back and practice a bit more, refine your skills, adjust your Profile Information to fit the level of education revealed in your writing/vocabulary skills........oh, I don't know, at least the mid Thirties, and then come back and try again.
Yes, the "kinder, more respectful" atheist is a good touch, but you are not the first to use that approach. You are not even in the top 100 of those who have used this approach. While it does tend to keep you around longer, it never actually works. Just saying. Sooner or later, they all "slip" and let their "real selves" get the better of them.
I suggest you read Matthew 5.21 ff from someone Who was qualified to say what sin was.
Sin is to go against God' teaching (1 John 3.4; 5.17).
Sin is to fail to do the good that I know I should do (James 4.17).
Sin is to do anything my conscience does not approve of (Rom 2.15)
Sin is to do anything that goes against what I believe (Rom 14.23).
Breaking local laws and your country's laws is sin because the authorities have been put there by God to make such decisions (Rom 13.1-6).
Sin is to do anything to someone that you would not want done to you (Matt 7.12).
Sin is to fail to do something for someone that you would want them to do for you (Matt 7.12).
Sin is to go against God' teaching (1 John 3.4; 5.17).
Sin is to fail to do the good that I know I should do (James 4.17).
Sin is to do anything my conscience does not approve of (Rom 2.15)
Sin is to do anything that goes against what I believe (Rom 14.23).
Breaking local laws and your country's laws is sin because the authorities have been put there by God to make such decisions (Rom 13.1-6).
Sin is to do anything to someone that you would not want done to you (Matt 7.12).
Sin is to fail to do something for someone that you would want them to do for you (Matt 7.12).
Proverbs 2:10 .) When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
11 .) Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
12 .) To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
13 .) Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;
14 .) Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
15 .) Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:
11 .) Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
12 .) To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
13 .) Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;
14 .) Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
15 .) Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:
