What is the Messianic Kingdom?
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A
Im sorry if i derail this thread. Im not always on task.
My interest is showing the highly unlikelyness of any biblical
support for a future earthly kingdom than how this
age will end.
I think the bible is clear that Jesus is now sitting on davids everlasting Throne.
Although its not salvic it bugs me
My interest is showing the highly unlikelyness of any biblical
support for a future earthly kingdom than how this
age will end.
I think the bible is clear that Jesus is now sitting on davids everlasting Throne.
Although its not salvic it bugs me
Red herring.
It's not about skipping and twisiting, it's about your not addressing Daniel's interpretation in 2:44-45.
1) In the time of those kings (Da 2:44) - the kings typified in the vision of the statue in Da 2, between 626 BC and 476 AD.
2) the God of heaven set up a kingdom (Da 2:44) - that is the kingdom set up by Christ at his first coming during the Roman empire of 63 BC to 476 AD.
3) it will endure forever (Da 2:44) - there will be no other Messianic kingdom in the sphere of time
4) this is the meaning of the rock. . .that broke the iron and the clay (Da 2:45)
The iron and the clay were both broken by the rock, which was the fifth kingdom, set up by God, during the time of those kings, which was between 626 BC and 476 AD.
Daniel's interpretation of the four kingdoms does not allow for a separation of the Roman empire into two kingdoms, one of iron, and millennia later, another of clay to become a fifth kingdom in the statue.
That is your private interpretation which disagrees with Daniel's interpretation.
So drop the red herring of skipping and twisting, and address the points of Daniel's intepretation presented above.
It's not about skipping and twisiting, it's about your not addressing Daniel's interpretation in 2:44-45.
1) In the time of those kings (Da 2:44) - the kings typified in the vision of the statue in Da 2, between 626 BC and 476 AD.
2) the God of heaven set up a kingdom (Da 2:44) - that is the kingdom set up by Christ at his first coming during the Roman empire of 63 BC to 476 AD.
3) it will endure forever (Da 2:44) - there will be no other Messianic kingdom in the sphere of time
4) this is the meaning of the rock. . .that broke the iron and the clay (Da 2:45)
The iron and the clay were both broken by the rock, which was the fifth kingdom, set up by God, during the time of those kings, which was between 626 BC and 476 AD.
Daniel's interpretation of the four kingdoms does not allow for a separation of the Roman empire into two kingdoms, one of iron, and millennia later, another of clay to become a fifth kingdom in the statue.
That is your private interpretation which disagrees with Daniel's interpretation.
So drop the red herring of skipping and twisting, and address the points of Daniel's intepretation presented above.
Not according to Daniel.
The fifth kingdom set up by God during the Roman empire (63 BC to 476 AD) endures forever.
There is nothing in Daniel's interpretation which has the fifth kingdom set up by God broken into parts.
That is more private interpretation, nowhere found in Daniel's interpretation, and is being driven by your theology.
The fifth kingdom set up by God during the Roman empire (63 BC to 476 AD) endures forever.
There is nothing in Daniel's interpretation which has the fifth kingdom set up by God broken into parts.
That is more private interpretation, nowhere found in Daniel's interpretation, and is being driven by your theology.
I figure bookends to be a guzzler, but ok, we can teach him how to sip
I didnt think it was aimed at me, but wanted u to know i do mock.
But not in any disrespect or guile or bitterness or that stuff.
And ive watched the thread and i seen some near hate, but only from
one person. Even in that, its not important.
I didnt think it was aimed at me, but wanted u to know i do mock.
But not in any disrespect or guile or bitterness or that stuff.
And ive watched the thread and i seen some near hate, but only from
one person. Even in that, its not important.
The Roman empire was strong at one time, and actually it's strength fluctuated at times, but like all nations that get to big, the weaken and fall, especially if are involved in a Caesar cult. So I don't see a problem with the feet and clay still being Rome. All the other nations, gold, silver, bronze had a complete change from one type of metal to another and didn't intermix. So when Iron is mix with clay suggest to me that it's still Rome, but it had changed some how and I think it means it weakened.
A
That is why God said it is a fractured kingdom/. and why in chapter 7 God said it would hold together for only a short time.. it does not mean it will not happen. God said it will.. should we question god??
Otherwise it seems Daniel 2 would have been written differently. Like a 4th kingdom, then something about
Messiah, then back to biz as usual then Jesus coming again, then another kingdom, the gog/magog, then.................
It seems to me its plain the Kingdom of God, for he informs us it is to occur "in the days of these kings..." so at this time im not hip to a future thingy.
I think ill be back if the thread stays on this with my "clay" thingy. And Mingled seed. Then ill write a book and direct a movie
This is a kingdom you can't see with your eyes yet. It's Christ's spiritual kingdom. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world" and that it "doesn't come by with observance." Before Christ's death:
Luke 17:21
The Coming of the Kingdom
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; [SUP]21 [/SUP]nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
After Christ's death, resurrection and ascension.
1 Peter 2:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
EG, I know you don't agree, this is the proof text we use in demonstrating that ancient Israel is an anti-type to true Israel, the Israel of God, the Church.
Galatians 6:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And as many as walk according to this rule (what rule? the Glory of the cross, verses 11-15, and also the main issue Paul was addressing in Galatians), peace and mercy be upon them (the Galatian Church in general), and upon the Israel of God (The whole Church).
No matter if you realize it or not, you are in His kingdom EG!
Luke 17:21
The Coming of the Kingdom
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; [SUP]21 [/SUP]nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
After Christ's death, resurrection and ascension.
1 Peter 2:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
EG, I know you don't agree, this is the proof text we use in demonstrating that ancient Israel is an anti-type to true Israel, the Israel of God, the Church.
Galatians 6:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And as many as walk according to this rule (what rule? the Glory of the cross, verses 11-15, and also the main issue Paul was addressing in Galatians), peace and mercy be upon them (the Galatian Church in general), and upon the Israel of God (The whole Church).
No matter if you realize it or not, you are in His kingdom EG!
hi Bookends...what about this possibility: the Clay mingled with the Iron (Rome) is the Herod Family/Dynasty.
the Herods ruled specifically in Israel at the time the specific 10 Horns (Caesers) ruled the empire. which makes them important figures that are always overlooked.
and i think the point is that they all were crushed by The Stone, Jesus.
the Kingdom, His Kingdom, for His people (whoever they are who have Him to rule over them - believe upon Him) will never have another King.
The Kingdom will not be given to another. i guess you have to know the King Personally at this time.
anyways....just some thoughts:
Daniel 7:7
"After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
Ten Horns/Kings/Caesars
1) Augustus
2) Tiberius
3) Caligula
4) Claudius
5) Nero
6) Galba
7) Otho
8) Vitellius
9) Vespasian
10) Titus
ex:
Luke 2
1In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2This was the first registration whena Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3And all went to be registered, each to his own town. 4And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5to be registered with Mary, his betrothed,b who was with child. 6And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn
the Ten Horns are concurrent with the 7 Heads/With 7 Crowns
Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
Revelation 13:1
And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
1) Herod Antipater
2) Herod The Great
3) Herod Archelaus
4) Herod Antipas
5) Herod Philip
6) Herod Aristobulus
7) Herod Agrippa I
ex:
Matthew 2:
The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
Herod Kills the Children
16Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. 17Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:
18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
weeping and loud lamentation,
Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.”
~
Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
~
so...ya
i dunno. makes the most sense to me. IN THE DAYS OF ALL THOSE KINGS...The Caesars and the Herods.
the Herods and Caesars are continually in it together, running around trying to kill Jesus and the Christians. in Israel.
so...ya. just seems like they all fit into the whole wrap up for the Promises, including the end of the Old Covenant in reality in 70Ad with Titus.
plus this part:
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men
kinda matches this in more than one place:
His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
i do believe there's a glimpse at the final days events in Revelation 17:9.
it isn't the same as the above, and
i'm not going into it here.
tty
z
excuse typos etc
Revelation 13:1
And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
the Herods claimed to be Kings of The Jews.
the Herods ruled specifically in Israel at the time the specific 10 Horns (Caesers) ruled the empire. which makes them important figures that are always overlooked.
and i think the point is that they all were crushed by The Stone, Jesus.
the Kingdom, His Kingdom, for His people (whoever they are who have Him to rule over them - believe upon Him) will never have another King.
The Kingdom will not be given to another. i guess you have to know the King Personally at this time.
anyways....just some thoughts:
Daniel 7:7
"After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
Ten Horns/Kings/Caesars
1) Augustus
2) Tiberius
3) Caligula
4) Claudius
5) Nero
6) Galba
7) Otho
8) Vitellius
9) Vespasian
10) Titus
ex:
Luke 2
1In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2This was the first registration whena Quirinius was governor of Syria. 3And all went to be registered, each to his own town. 4And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5to be registered with Mary, his betrothed,b who was with child. 6And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn
the Ten Horns are concurrent with the 7 Heads/With 7 Crowns
Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
Revelation 13:1
And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
1) Herod Antipater
2) Herod The Great
3) Herod Archelaus
4) Herod Antipas
5) Herod Philip
6) Herod Aristobulus
7) Herod Agrippa I
ex:
Matthew 2:
The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
Herod Kills the Children
16Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. 17Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:
18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
weeping and loud lamentation,
Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.”
~
Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
~
so...ya
i dunno. makes the most sense to me. IN THE DAYS OF ALL THOSE KINGS...The Caesars and the Herods.
the Herods and Caesars are continually in it together, running around trying to kill Jesus and the Christians. in Israel.
so...ya. just seems like they all fit into the whole wrap up for the Promises, including the end of the Old Covenant in reality in 70Ad with Titus.
plus this part:
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men
kinda matches this in more than one place:
His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
i do believe there's a glimpse at the final days events in Revelation 17:9.
it isn't the same as the above, and
i'm not going into it here.
tty
z
excuse typos etc
Revelation 13:1
And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
the Herods claimed to be Kings of The Jews.
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