What is the resurrection of bodies for?

p_rehbein · Oct 23, 2018

comment I quoted speaks of not sowing the bodies that shall be.............you DID NOT show that we WILL receive new bodies....you left it hanging there..........AS IF we remain with these shells we now live in.......

Clarify........no flesh and blood...........

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal mustput on immortality.

you cherry picked one verse......not the entire passage..........hey, it AIN'T that hard to copy/paste ALL of it

p_rehbein · Oct 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:

It does not state our heavenly/celestial bodies are IN HEAVEN (as in like, right now) goodness........it says we will be CHANGED, when He comes..........He ain't bringing a whole bunch of empty bodies with Him for us to all jump in

You are ONLY partially right.........that being this earthly, fleshy body............the resurrection HAPPENS HERE..........Christ COMES FROM HEAVEN HERE................read the Scripture...........goodness..........

presidente · Oct 23, 2018

ewq1938 said:

You are assuming Paul is talking about resurrection as opposed to rapture (resurrection plus rapture.) The passage talks about being clothed with something heavenly.

Look at the words again:
II Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul speaks of putting something on, something from heaven. He does not talk about a new version of himself being created. If the rapture happens, this heavenly dwelling will cloth him, not replace him. It is the same for the resurrection.

These verses from I Corinthians 15 contradict your viewpoint:

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

It dies, then is quickened-- which means comes to life, ζωοποιεῖται.

This also disproves your argument:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You have two separate bodies.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

II Corinthians 5 speaks of being clothed with the house from heaven. Here is a reference to bearing the heavenly image.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

See in verse 52, the dead are raised incorruptable. The dead stand up again, but incorruptable. Their body is not replaced with a superior version in heaven. The dead are raised, instead. The bodies of those who remain are transformed, changed-- not replaced with another body.

But we put something on. We put on the heavenly image, immortality.

From a historical creedal perspective, your view would be considered heresy since the Apostles Creed includes a profession of belief in the resurrection of the body.

Look at this Strong's entry for what anastasis. translations 'resurrection' means from https://biblehub.com/greek/386.htm

anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

ewq1938 · Oct 23, 2018

p_rehbein said:

lol...that is exactly what I am arguing against. When a saved person dies, they NEVER return back to their old body. There is a new body in heaven mad just for them when the time for resurrection comes.

ewq1938 · Oct 23, 2018

p_rehbein said:

It says exactly that.

Wrong people. That is about the living saints not the ones who are dead and in heaven.

Obviously not but no one suggested such a thing.

The resurrection does not happen here. It happens in heaven. Only the Allusso (changing of mortal body into immortal) happens on the Earth then those same people are caught up in the rapture. The dead in Christ resurrect before all that happens which further proves they resurrect in heaven not on the Earth.

........He ain't bringing a whole bunch of bodiless spirits with Him and make them jump into old mortal bodies

ewq1938 · Oct 23, 2018

presidente said:

But he is speaking of a new body not his old mortal body. That "something from heaven" mention is obviously not the old body in heaven is it?

stopped a bit too soon:

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

He literally says the original body that is sowed is NOT the body that shall be...not the body that will be resurrected.

That supports me as I have always said there is a new body in heaven for righteous.

Yep...that's the new body yet again.

That is still what I have presenteed. They stand up in a new body, not back into the old one.

The dead are the dead in Christ, their spirits do enter a new body...that's what is raised up to life, a persons spirit within a new body from heaven.

Yet you.argue that the dead in Christ return to their old bodies which would require the same transformation but as we see, only the living have mortal bodies that are changed into immortal. The bodies the dead in Christ receive are in fact new and already immortal bodies. No change from mortal to immortal for their bodies.

Yes the new immortal body is put on.

The dead in Christ stand up in a new body not the old body. All scriptures in this post support what I have said and that is not accidental...I have well studied the issue and know what the scripture declare about what body the dead receive.

Deade · Oct 23, 2018

I know what a spiritual body is: it is spirit. Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two cherubim in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. God can do anything he wants.

John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” This is what your spiritual bodies are. God does not need a body. We would not even recognize Him in His glorified form.

2 Corinthians 5:16: "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." He is now in glory.

Everything made in our universe was made by the unseen (spirits).

Hebrews 11:3: “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

1 Timothy 1:17: “Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

I think we are trying to understand stuff that is way above our pay grade: as it said in 2 Cor. 5:16 above.

ewq1938 · Oct 23, 2018

Deade said:

Jesus returned after the ascension?

Also, the spiritual body is not "spirit". It simply means it has a spiritual origin but it is as physical as Christ's resurrected body was.

Deade · Oct 24, 2018

ewq1938 said:

That was for recognition purposes only. You think He looks like that now? Read the scripture I gave.

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2018

Deade said:

Yes he looks like that now and it was the scars that was for recognition purposes.

presidente · Oct 24, 2018

Locutus said:

That is not resurrection. The verse is resurrection, but not what you describe.

In I Thessalonians we see the dead rise first and we are caught up together with them.

presidente · Oct 24, 2018

ewq1938
If you plant wheat, the wheat plant, which is more glorious than the seed grows out of the ground where the seed was planted. The body is sown in weakness, and it is raised in power. That's not what you are arguing for. You are talking about a weak body dying here, and another body being created in heaven. That's a different story. Paul has bodies here being clothed with the heavenly. Again, different from what you propose.

If someone believed what you do about the body of Jesus, wouldn't they be heretics? If I am not mistaken, some JWs have held to that idea.

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2018

presidente said:

Yet it is what Paul is teaching and example was used to help people understand in more simpler terms. Don't forget what Paul states:

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

And in verse 37 he makes clear what was sown is a different body than what is raised.

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul's point is there are two different bodies. One is mortal, and one is immortal. He does not speak of the living saints having their mortal bodies changed (allusso in the Greek) In this passage he speaks solely of those that died and resurrect into a new body not the old body.

I don't know what Jw's believe but what I believe in is scriptural. Anyone denying Christ is still in a immortal physical body is not adhering to the scriptures.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

If he ascended bodily then he will return bodily.

https://www.gotquestions.org/ascension-Jesus-Christ.html

presidente · Oct 24, 2018

ewq1938,

In the first century, there were Saducees, the Zadokite group, many of whom did not accept the Bible as really that authoritative beyond the first five books. The Saducees said there was no resurrection. There was also a more Bible-oriented group, many of whom were into oral Torah, the Pharisees, who accepted the whole Old Testament as scripture. They believed in the resurrection. Paul was on this group's side when it came to the resurrection and made this disagreement over the resurrection a key issue in his trial, and used it as an occasion for evangelism. The Saducees also did not like it early in Acts when Peter and John were teaching, through Jesus, the resurrection of the dead. The temple was their territory, and no doubt preaching on the resurrection with real proof of it ran against their stance on the issue.

Jesus argued with Saducees for the resurrection out of the Torah. But it is perhaps more clearly described in the writings of Daniel.

Daniel 12:
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
(NKJV)

This is a clear statement about the resurrection. It shows how the 'Hebrew resurrection' works, the resurrection Hebrews believed in, the kind the Old Testament taught. The Egyptians thought the dead Pharoah's had a ka, another version of himself in the afterworld. The Greeks believed they would wake up with another version of themselves in realm of Hades, hopefully in the blissful Elysian fields. But the Hebrews, or at least the Pharisees and those who agreed with them, believed in the resurrection of the body.

Notice it says 'those who sleep in the dust.' Paul frequently refers to the dead in Christ as being asleep. Christ also said Lazarus slept. He said another girl He raised slept, and they laughed at Him.

There are also these words of Christ,
John5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

We also read this.
Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Look also at Romans 8.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. (NKJV)

and the implications of a verse prior, which may have application for the present time, as well as for the resurrection.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Anastasia is resurrection. It's when a dead body comes to life. The body is sown. It goes down into the ground. The body comes back up. But it is different. The seed falls into the ground, and is just a puny little seed. It springs up as something more glorious, a whole plant. The body is sown in weakness, it comes up in power. But the body rises. Christ's body died, and rose again.
(NKJV)

presidente · Oct 24, 2018

ewq1938 said:

No we do not see that. The bodies of those who are alive are transformed, but you add the word 'only' and that is not true. We all wait the redemption of our body, including Paul, who wrote Romans 8.

'Resurrection' in English means a dead body comes back to life. It does not mean another superior duplicate body is created somewhere else. And in Greek 'anastasia' means the dead coming to life again, not another superior duplicate body created elsewhere.

At the parousia, the dead in Christ rise first, then they that are alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The resurrection occurs at the return of Christ.

The resurrection we wait for is a Biblical resurrection, the one established in the Old Testament, such as in this passage:

Daniel 2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
(NKJV)

maxwel · Oct 24, 2018

trofimus said:

This is a really interesting question.

Apparently God feels that having a physical body within which to place the soul is the zenith of man's existence...
because...
that's the very thing He's planned for the zenith of our existence.

We can sit around and ponder why... it's pretty interesting.
But God does consider that kind of state to be the very best thing for man.

---

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2018

presidente said:

Sure but Paul writes about a new body in heaven for the saints so how do you resolve any apparent contradiction?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Perhaps the increased knowledge comes in the NT about the specific details?

Yes but "the grave" is also code for where spirits of dead are...hades or heaven (Abraham's bosom).

Paul also writes how the living saints will be changed (allaso).

That word is not in that verse. zōopoieō refer to a resurrection or the changing of mortal to immortal which I believe this verse refers to.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

This is subject in this passage, where Paul is very clear the dead resurrect into a different body than they were born into. Later in chapter he switches subject to those who remain alive and what happens to them.

Paul says it is not the same body. 1Co 15:37, 44

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2018

presidente said:

Yes but the Greek word can mean "a standing up" which would happen if spirit of a dead saint was given a new body that came to life. They would literally stand up.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

While Paul still lived his mortal body he declared that there was a body that "we have" which is from heaven and is eternal in heaven. That body is still there and Paul only awaits the time of resurrection when he will enter that new body and "stand up".

presidente · Oct 24, 2018

ewq1938 said:

I do not see a contradiction. Let us look at II Corinthians 5.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Why do you think he has the resurrection in mind, necessarily, as opposed to the rapture/bodies being changed? The transformed saints will be clothed with immortality and will bear the image of the heavenly, won't they?

And compare what Paul says here in verse 5 with what he says in Romans about we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit groaning waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

Paul is talking about the same thing here, what we will experience, whether we die first or not. We will be clothed with the heavenly.

The New Jerusalem also descends out of heaven. The New Jerusalem is apparently, the bride, so we may be in the city, and we may also be the city. These are some other ideas for contemplation.

I'd like you to consider a Pascal's wager approach to the issue. If I were wrong about this and we all get a totally separate body in heaven, then my belief about the bodies rising up would just be a wrong idea. But if you are wrong, then you do not really believe in the resurrection as scripture teaches it. Paul delivered a couple of men to Satan for teaching the wrong doctrine about the resurrection-- that it had already occured. Also, you would be considered a heretic historically, because the apostles' creed includes a confession of the belief in the resurrection of the body.

But not contradictory to Daniel.

But this is a word for a tomb, not Hades or Sheol.

I think the first sentence you made there actually disproves your argument about the resurrection.

Read those verses with the idea of the body they went down in being different from the body that comes up, and it makes sense, especially the planting metaphor.

Paul says it is not the same body. 1Co 15:37, 44[/QUOTE]

Look at verse 37
7 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

If you plant wheat in the ground, does the plant spring up out of that same seed right where you planted it, or does the plant spring up up in heaven far away from the seed you planted? The plant grows out of that seed, but the plant is far beyond that little seed in many ways.

44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Again, the body that is sown is sown a natural body. That same body is raised as a spiritual body. Again, this is a sowing metaphor. Try planting a seed and watering it and see if the plant springs up in the pot or way up in heaven somewhere.

ewq1938 · Oct 24, 2018

presidente said:

Because he says so.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Then later he changes the subject to the living bodies changing:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Yes but the issue here is none of the dead saints return to their old bodies. Paul is clear their new bodies await them in heaven.

Yes but not in the same way. The dead get new bodies, the living have their mortal bodies changed into an immortal body.

Not "we all" there is a difference between dead saints and living saints as I explained above.

Nope. I have presented scriptures which show how the dead get immortality is different than how the living do.

Doesn't change symbology.

Paul still says the two bodies are different.

It springs up in heaven. Planted in the Earth, springs up in heaven where Paul says the new body is located. What scripture shows the dead saints at the second coming, arising out of their graves? scripture shows the dead being raptured up with the living or rapture up at all? They don't. They were already in heaven, resurrected there and follow Christ to clouds where only the living who changed into immortals are raptured up to meet dead in Christ (now resurrected) and Christ.

Your interpretation has the dead resurrecting on Earth along with living being changed and somehow both groups are raptured but scripture does not present it that way. Only the living are raptured to clouds not the dead in Christ. Remember living cannot "prevent/precede" the dead because simply the dead in Christ resurrected in heaven before leaving to follow Christ.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again, only the living are rapture up and that's simply because the dead already in heaven and resurrected and thus follow Christ as other scriptures affirm.

Again, Paul makes it quite clear it is not the same body that arises.

The metaphor uses symbolic language and symbols to express a complex concept at least complex for the people of the day.

What is the resurrection of bodies for?

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