What is the resurrection of bodies for?

[Hevosmies]

I am something between amill and postmill.

But generally, I am agnostic regarding eschatology. I lean to the most simple solutions, but the simplicity does not make it the "right one" automatically...

I've done a 180. All these premill charts and maps are just too complicated. The fact that death is destroyed at the second coming according to the bible, yet in premillennialism it continues for a millennium after. Just doesn't make sense. ive tried to fit it, but you just have to twist so much scripture in the NT, Paul, Peter, Jesus' parables. 2 Peter 3:10-13 is especially clear, just like 2 thess 1:6-8, the parable of wheat and tares, the fishnet parable, and on and on.

Revelation 20:11 looks a lot like 2 Peter 3:10-13, the second coming. After which there is a resurrection and death is destroyed, it matches with the rest of the NT witness easily.

I will tune in to a Sam Storms podcast today, that guy is an eschatology genius.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The fact that death is destroyed at the second coming according to the bible, yet in premillennialism it continues for a millennium after. Just doesn't make sense.

Did you see the post (or posts) where I've shown the parallel between:

--Revelation 19:19 / 16:14-16

[and]

--Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which states, "21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/punished." [in Amill-teaching, there IS NO "after many days" at this point in the chronology, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth; however, both Isa24:21-22 states that there is, as well as Rev19-20, and other passages such as Lk19:12,15,17,19 and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and all of the parallels to these...]

2 Peter 3:10-13 is especially clear, […]

Revelation 20:11 looks a lot like 2 Peter 3:10-13, the second coming. After which there is a resurrection and death is destroyed, it matches with the rest of the NT witness easily.

Have you compared the 2Pet3:12 (I think) verse, with both chapters of Isaiah 34-35 (as opposed to merely 34:4, one verse extracted from its entire context)?

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus is called the last Adam

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Both last and second.
Keep reading,
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[presidente]

If he is saying second as in 'second of the two I have just mentioned' is 'second Man' an appropriate title for Christ?

 

[trofimus]

I've done a 180. All these premill charts and maps are just too complicated. The fact that death is destroyed at the second coming according to the bible, yet in premillennialism it continues for a millennium after. Just doesn't make sense. ive tried to fit it, but you just have to twist so much scripture in the NT, Paul, Peter, Jesus' parables. 2 Peter 3:10-13 is especially clear, just like 2 thess 1:6-8, the parable of wheat and tares, the fishnet parable, and on and on.

Revelation 20:11 looks a lot like 2 Peter 3:10-13, the second coming. After which there is a resurrection and death is destroyed, it matches with the rest of the NT witness easily.

I will tune in to a Sam Storms podcast today, that guy is an eschatology genius.

Yes, premill is too complicated. Not to say the dispensationalists´s view mixing Israel, temple etc into it.

 

[Hungry]

If people would just study the Bible, Christianity is fairly simple to understand. Most misunderstandings are a result of man’s preference to be told something rather than learn it themselves. There is so much conjecture injected into Bible teaching.

A New Earth might be drastically different than this one. Our new bodies will be built to suit it.

 

[Hevosmies]

Did you see the post (or posts) where I've shown the parallel between:

--Revelation 19:19 / 16:14-16

[and]

--Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which states, "21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/punished." [in Amill-teaching, there IS NO "after many days" at this point in the chronology, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth; however, both Isa24:21-22 states that there is, as well as Rev19-20, and other passages such as Lk19:12,15,17,19 and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and all of the parallels to these...]



Have you compared the 2Pet3:12 (I think) verse, with both chapters of Isaiah 34-35 (as opposed to merely 34:4, one verse extracted from its entire context)?

I dont believe Isaiah 34 is future, so moot point
Its clearly about the judgment of EDOM. It says that right there. Its apocalyptic language.

 

[garee]

when He first created man He looked and saw it was very good. and Adam had a body which was made of dust. good.

He has a purpose for that, evidently. same reason He isn't just making a spirit earth, but a new one.

The hidden glory of God in many cases is the bottom line is in respect to the Holy Place as unseen glory of a God who hides himself awaiting the last day to revel his glory.

He is our hiding place or city of refuge as his eternal bride the church.

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Adam's body which became a body of death was corrupted as was the whole creation . being informed....In dying the process of corrupting you will die.

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

Satan is called the morning star.. a reflection of God who is Light the faithful Creator

Which is unlike Christ who was both the bright as the light and morning star the lamp upon our path.(the source and the reflected light)A important difference to be noted

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

It would seem to have taken place on day three when God found pride in the heart of his most beautiful creation Satan .

The glory of God as the light of the world departed on the fourth day he set up the temporal time keepers .(Sun and the Moon the source of light and a reflection ) They will not be part of the new order. The Glory of God will be the light as it was before he corrupted the first creation on day 4 as it would seem.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.revelation 21:23

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.Ezekiel 28 12-15

What these bodies of death were before the rudiments of this world started to die we are not told. We do know when it started to die something happened to reveal the nakedness. Perhaps it lost a glow like the body of Moses when he left the presence of the glory of God. And Moses was required to wear a mask. We know flesh and blood as rudiments of this world will not be part of the new. Neither will Jew or Gentile as division of nations, neither male nor female.

We have our new disembodied eternal spirits that will be raised on the last day knowing our old corrupted bodies do return to the lifeless ,spiritless dust from where they were formed of. Again no one knows what the new bodies will be like .

 

[garee]

I dont believe Isaiah 34 is future, so moot point
Its clearly about the judgment of EDOM. It says that right there. Its apocalyptic language.

Yes Isaiah 34 is signifying that its the end of the world, the end of time, the last day .The Sun and moon the two temporal time keepers under the feet of Christ chaste virgin bride the church as depicted or signified in Revelation 12.

The last day or last time.. two promises fulfilled


For it is the day of the Lord’s revenge, the year when Edom will be paid back for all it did to Israel.Isiah 34:8

Curses and rewards
.

Christ chaste virgin bride the church is clothed with the righteousness as the glory of God. Judgment day the last day typified by the word Edom to represent unconverted man. Zion to represent the heavenly city coming down to meet the saints reigning with Christ on earth and in the twinkling of the eye both receive their new incorruptible bodies. The former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind for ever and ever more.

Isaiah 65:17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Six times in the book of John God uses the metaphor " last day" for two purposes.(1) to represent salvation for the believer and (2) the end of spirit life for those who believe not. Again one work of His faith all in the twinkling of the eye . He will come like a thief in the night. Sudden destruction

 

[Absolutely]

If he is saying second as in 'second of the two I have just mentioned' is 'second Man' an appropriate title for Christ?

Through the first adam sin entered the world.
Through the last/second adam comes eternal life.
Adam and christ are both originals.
The target is a family of people in Gods image as his family. Eternal family
In rev 5 it says " no man was found"
Then Christ walks up.
A man was found. Jesus the God man.
He has redemption power. He alone.The only God man in the entire universe.
The second adam

 

[presidente]

What I mean is, if the use of 'second' here is like, "The first Adam I am describing is like this, and the second Adam I am discribing is like that'-- then 'second Adam' is a bit of an odd theological term to take out of a context like that, if 'second' describes the order in which Paul wrote about them in the previous statements.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I've done a 180. All these premill charts and maps are just too complicated. The fact that death is destroyed at the second coming according to the bible, yet in premillennialism it continues for a millennium after.

Good day Hevosmies,

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the information that death is destroyed at the second coming, which is by the way, is not according to the Bible?

Death is not destroyed until after the millennial period at the great white throne judgment, as revealed below:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The order of events are as follows:

* The Lord's appearing to gather the church (rapture)

* The seven year period of God's wrath

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

* The millennial period (literal thousand years)

* The great white throne judgment (where death and hades are cast into the lake of fire).

Just doesn't make sense. ive tried to fit it, but you just have to twist so much scripture in the NT, Paul, Peter, Jesus' parables. 2 Peter 3:10-13 is especially clear, just like 2 thes 1:6-8, the parable of wheat and tares, the fishnet parable, and on and on.

What is causing you your problem, is that you are not understanding that there is going to be a group of Gentile's who will become believers during that last seven years referred to as "the great tribulation saints." This group is not the church, but will be those who will believe in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. They will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark. They will not love their lives so much as to resist death. This group is described in Revelation 7:9-17, as that great number of white robed saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles).

In support of this, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. From chapter 4 onward the word "church" no longer appears and is no where mentioned within chapters 6 thru 18. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride, where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. And the next time the word "church" is used again, is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog.

Regarding 2 Pet.3:10, since we have other scriptures that gives us the chronological order of end-time events, then 2 Peter 3:10 cannot take place chronologically, but must be generalizing. For we know according to scripture, that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age (second coming), that he will establish a thousand year kingdom on this earth where He will rule form Jerusalem form the throne of David, according to the prophesies. Therefore, it is not when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age that the earth and its works will burned up, but not until after His thousand year reign on this present earth.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found.

I will tune in to a Sam Storms podcast today, that guy is an eschatology genius.

If the people on this podcast are teaching you this, then you need to stop listening to them, because what they are teaching is false.

 

[Hevosmies]

Good day Hevosmies,

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the information that death is destroyed at the second coming, which is by the way, is not according to the Bible?

Death is not destroyed until after the millennial period at the great white throne judgment, as revealed below:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The order of events are as follows:

* The Lord's appearing to gather the church (rapture)

* The seven year period of God's wrath

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

* The millennial period (literal thousand years)

* The great white throne judgment (where death and hades are cast into the lake of fire).



What is causing you your problem, is that you are not understanding that there is going to be a group of Gentile's who will become believers during that last seven years referred to as "the great tribulation saints." This group is not the church, but will be those who will believe in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. They will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark. They will not love their lives so much as to resist death. This group is described in Revelation 7:9-17, as that great number of white robed saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles).

In support of this, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. From chapter 4 onward the word "church" no longer appears and is no where mentioned within chapters 6 thru 18. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride, where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. And the next time the word "church" is used again, is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog.

Regarding 2 Pet.3:10, since we have other scriptures that gives us the chronological order of end-time events, then 2 Peter 3:10 cannot take place chronologically, but must be generalizing. For we know according to scripture, that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age (second coming), that he will establish a thousand year kingdom on this earth where He will rule form Jerusalem form the throne of David, according to the prophesies. Therefore, it is not when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age that the earth and its works will burned up, but not until after His thousand year reign on this present earth.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found.



If the people on this podcast are teaching you this, then you need to stop listening to them, because what they are teaching is false.

2 Peter 3:10 must take place at the second coming. Because otherwise Peter was lying to the people to whom he sent the letter. Had you gotten that letter in the 1st century you would of thought "OH okay. This is happening NEXT"

And 1 Corinthians 15 is where death is swallowed up in victory. The reason this is at the second coming is: 1. "Then cometh the end" 2. Its a quote from isaiah 25, which is also quoted in revelation 21 in relation to the NEW EARTH, not to the millennium, when all tears are wiped and death is swallowed up in victory. 3. Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God.

The third point alone is just devastating, no matter how I try to fit it, its just not possible. The new testament is just all too clear that once Jesus returns, its game over and unto eternity we go, no second chances, its either eternal life or eternal damnation. I think its best to go with the clear verses.

And anyone who were to get saved in the tribulation, WOULD be part of the church. The church is forever, according to Paul. And furthermore, by definition anyone who believes in Jesus is IN THE CHURCH. No such thing as believing in Jesus and not being in the church.
Thats just how it is. There will never ever be a day when another group other than the church pops up and is saved.

Also I realize you might not be a fan of Sam Storms, neither was I because he is a calvinist, and im not. But I decided to take the chance and listen to what he has to say, and he can make a good biblical case for amillennialism which i previously thought was absolutely impossible. At the end of the day ALL of the major three eschatological positions are WITHIN Orthodoxy of christianity, they have been around for ever

 

[Ahwatukee]

2 Peter 3:10 must take place at the second coming. Because otherwise Peter was lying to the people to whom he sent the letter. Had you gotten that letter in the 1st century you would of thought "OH okay. This is happening NEXT"

No, Peter was generalizing. Yes, the Lord is going to return like a thief and yes this earth is going to be destroyed with all of the elements melting in fervent heat, but not in that immediate sequential order. As I said and as scripture makes clear, after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, we have scriptures that show that the millennial period must take place following that. It is not until after the millennial period that the earth passes away and the new heavens and new earth are created. By claiming that this present heaven and earth are destroyed when the Lord returns to end the age, you get rid of His thousand year reign.

And 1 Corinthians 15 is where death is swallowed up in victory. The reason this is at the second coming is: 1. "Then cometh the end" 2. Its a quote from isaiah 25, which is also quoted in revelation 21 in relation to the NEW EARTH, not to the millennium, when all tears are wiped and death is swallowed up in victory. 3. Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God.

It is the after the millennial kingdom and great white throne judgment when the new heaven and new earth are created. It is not until after the millennial kingdom and during the great white throne judgment that death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. In support of this, death is still in operation during the millennial kingdom, for those whom Satan deceives, Gog and Magog, are killed after they surround the camp of God's people, the city that He loves (Israel).

Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Regarding the above, Paul was speaking about the gathering of the church being changed into their immoral and glorified bodies and being caught up.

The third point alone is just devastating, no matter how I try to fit it, its just not possible. The new testament is just all too clear that once Jesus returns, its game over and unto eternity we go, no second chances, its either eternal life or eternal damnation. I think its best to go with the clear verses.

Scripture does not teach that when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age that is the end. There will be the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the entire seven years alive and will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. The millennial kingdom is not the eternal state. Those who enter into the millennial kingdom will be in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth. Consider the following regarding the Lord's return to end the age and to establish His millennial kingdom:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." {Isa.2:4)

When has the above ever taken place? The answer is, never! And that because this is what is going to happen when the Lord returns to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. It will be a time of peace of the likes of which the world has never experienced. It will be a time when longevity will be like it was prior to the flood:

"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed."

It will be a time when the lion will eat straw like the Ox and there will be no ferocity between prey and predator animals. A young child will stick his hand in a vipers nest or play near a Cobra's den and not be hurt at all:

"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling a together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."

And anyone who were to get saved in the tribulation, WOULD be part of the church. The church is forever, according to Paul. And furthermore, by definition anyone who believes in Jesus is IN THE CHURCH. No such thing as believing in Jesus and not being in the church. Thats just how it is. There will never ever be a day when another group other than the church pops up and is saved.

That is not according to scripture. There is a group in Rev.7:1-8 which is not the church, but are the 144,000 who will acknowledge Christ as their Messiah who will be here during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Then there will also be a group of Gentile believers who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, which are referred as the great tribulation saints, which are also not the church. As I said, you will never find this group referred to as "the church." The very fact that the elder is asking John who those are in white robes and where they came from, would demonstrate that they are not the church, which John just got done writing letters to. Regarding this, John didn't know who they were, ergo, not the church.

If you can receive it, Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion of the gathered and called up.

Also I realize you might not be a fan of Sam Storms, neither was I because he is a calvinist, and im not. But I decided to take the chance and listen to what he has to say, and he can make a good biblical case for amillennialism which i previously thought was absolutely impossible. At the end of the day ALL of the major three eschatological positions are WITHIN Orthodoxy of christianity, they have been around for ever

I'm not a fan of anyone except of God and His word. Men can lead you astray by their teaches. I prefer to stick with the word of God. The chronological order remains the same:

* The appearing of the Lord to gather the church

* The seven years of God's wrath (seals, trumpets and bowls)

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and the church with Him

* The thousand year reign of Christ (millennial kingdom)

* The great white throne judgment (death is thrown into the lake of fire)

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (the eternal state)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The reason this is at the second coming is: 1. "Then cometh the end"

Consider that this word "then [G1534 - eita]" is a SEQUENCE word with no time-amount attached. It is different than the "then [G5119 - tote]" word, say, in 2Th2:8.

So the CONTEXT of 1Cor15 has a LISTING of things... SOME of which occurred 2000 yrs [roughly] before the NEXT LISTED item (see "Christ the firstfruit [32ad], then those of Christ at the coming of Him [yet future], THEN [G1534 - eita] the end when..." [this is 1000-yrs after the second LISTED item in the "SEQUENCE"---G1543 is a SEQUENCE word, with no time amount attached]. Note that "comes/cometh" is not in the Greek text.)


If the first two items in this LIST can be 2000-yrs apart, then it's perfectly reasonable to see the third listed item to be 1000-yrs after that.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I dont believe Isaiah 34 is future, so moot point
Its clearly about the judgment of EDOM. It says that right there. Its apocalyptic language.

Be informed and aware of those who draw on the "apocalyptic language" card as reason to disregard anything that may be prophetic.

I recommend this article by Dr Paul Martin Henebury:

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/

 

[garee]

Through the first adam sin entered the world.
Through the last/second adam comes eternal life.
Adam and christ are both originals.
The target is a family of people in Gods image as his family. Eternal family
In rev 5 it says " no man was found"
Then Christ walks up.
A man was found. Jesus the God man.
He has redemption power. He alone.The only God man in the entire universe.
The second adam

The phrase "God man" can cause confusion .

God is not a man as us. Never was never could be. God has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life. That idea belongs to natural man the creature as that seen having to do with natures as beginnings . God remains without Mother or father .(no beginning no natures))

The Catholics for one tried to establish two natures as beginnings 'and assigning them to God as a oral tradition of men .From that they like the apostate Jews that followed a law of the fathers created their own "queen of heaven" imagery to be used as idol images called workers with familiar spirits or what Catholicism has renamed "patron saints"

The foundation of necromancy ( seeking after the dead no longer here under the Sun in respect to those still alive) was a foundation for both the Apostate Jew and the Catholicism. There are over 3500 and rising workers with familiar spirits or called patron saints under Catholicism alone. How many the apostate Jews claim I don't it can be known .

We know Rachels family was involved with teraphims .(family idol images) She hid the idols images from her father that were needed to put a face on the unseen spirit guides when it (legion) comes up. It as the spirit of lies always come up as many, a legion . an image is needed to deceive the person is hearing the correct voice needed to fulfill the requested work again called "workers with familiar spirits" or "patron saints"

God is supernatural without nature as a beginning. It as it is written The word it defines the faith of God that does work in us, with us to both will and do the good pleasure of our God. It defines our God. When he left the demonstration of the corrupted flesh which he said could not profit. we understand it was to represent the spiritual work of pouring out his spirit .The promise.

Although for that temporal time period some did know Christ after his flesh as that seen. We know him that way forever more.

God is not a man as us. And neither is there a fleshly umpire as a mediator set between God not seen and man seen.

We walk by faith, the unseen eternal And not by sight the temporal, seen.

 

[Hevosmies]

Be informed and aware of those who draw on the "apocalyptic language" card as reason to disregard anything that may be prophetic.

I recommend this article by Dr Paul Martin Henebury:

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/apocalyptic-fixation/

sure.
But when you read Isaiah 34, it says its about Edom, specifically. And we can see that its been fulfilled Edom the area has no major cities today.

 

[Hevosmies]

No, Peter was generalizing. Yes, the Lord is going to return like a thief and yes this earth is going to be destroyed with all of the elements melting in fervent heat, but not in that immediate sequential order. As I said and as scripture makes clear, after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, we have scriptures that show that the millennial period must take place following that. It is not until after the millennial period that the earth passes away and the new heavens and new earth are created. By claiming that this present heaven and earth are destroyed when the Lord returns to end the age, you get rid of His thousand year reign.



It is the after the millennial kingdom and great white throne judgment when the new heaven and new earth are created. It is not until after the millennial kingdom and during the great white throne judgment that death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire. In support of this, death is still in operation during the millennial kingdom, for those whom Satan deceives, Gog and Magog, are killed after they surround the camp of God's people, the city that He loves (Israel).



Regarding the above, Paul was speaking about the gathering of the church being changed into their immoral and glorified bodies and being caught up.



Scripture does not teach that when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age that is the end. There will be the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the entire seven years alive and will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. The millennial kingdom is not the eternal state. Those who enter into the millennial kingdom will be in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth. Consider the following regarding the Lord's return to end the age and to establish His millennial kingdom:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." {Isa.2:4)

When has the above ever taken place? The answer is, never! And that because this is what is going to happen when the Lord returns to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. It will be a time of peace of the likes of which the world has never experienced. It will be a time when longevity will be like it was prior to the flood:

"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed."

It will be a time when the lion will eat straw like the Ox and there will be no ferocity between prey and predator animals. A young child will stick his hand in a vipers nest or play near a Cobra's den and not be hurt at all:

"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling a together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."





That is not according to scripture. There is a group in Rev.7:1-8 which is not the church, but are the 144,000 who will acknowledge Christ as their Messiah who will be here during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Then there will also be a group of Gentile believers who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, which are referred as the great tribulation saints, which are also not the church. As I said, you will never find this group referred to as "the church." The very fact that the elder is asking John who those are in white robes and where they came from, would demonstrate that they are not the church, which John just got done writing letters to. Regarding this, John didn't know who they were, ergo, not the church.

If you can receive it, Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion of the gathered and called up.



I'm not a fan of anyone except of God and His word. Men can lead you astray by their teaches. I prefer to stick with the word of God. The chronological order remains the same:

* The appearing of the Lord to gather the church

* The seven years of God's wrath (seals, trumpets and bowls)

* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age and the church with Him

* The thousand year reign of Christ (millennial kingdom)

* The great white throne judgment (death is thrown into the lake of fire)

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (the eternal state)

I have been quoted the sinner will die at 100 from Isaiah 65 a billion times. And I will continue to point out: Go back a few verses it says NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH. Isaiah 65:17. (This verse is quoted in Revelation 21, with a better promise, no death whatsoever).

Unless Isaiah switches topics and just randomly mentions new heaven and earth, then starts talking about the millennium.

Why arent the 144 000 the church? They are Israelites yes, but they believe in Jesus. Guess what that means? You are part of the Lord's church, jew or gentile, if you believe in Jesus, you qualify.

But I guess this is a pointless debate, I will probably NEVER budge on there being ONE people of God, made up of both JEWS and GENTILES. Why would God bother getting rid of the distinctions, breaking down the wall between jew and gentile, ONLY to bring it back? Thats absolute chaos and back and forth.

Nobody can be a believer in Christ, born again, and NOT be part of the Church. That would mean he isnt saved.
You guys disagree, thats fine, but most likely you will NEVER budge either on there being two (or three) peoples of God. Thats fine by me, guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

But Ahwatukee i'd like to ask. Since most likely you also believe that the churches in revelation are not only literal churches, but church eras, and most likely you believe Rev 3:10 is about the rapture:
If you were in the church of philadelphia in the first century and you got a letter from John, wouldnt you be surprised to find out that NONE OF IT, is to you? But to someone centuries centuries later escaping in a rapture, while the letter is adressed to you in the church of philadelphia? OR do you believe there was a 1st century application to that as well? I want to hear it. Double prophecy so to speak.

For the wolf lying down with the lamb passages, why cant these be in the new earth as well? Certainly there will be animals on the new earth too. With all of creation being restored.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I have been quoted the sinner will die at 100 from Isaiah 65 a billion times. And I will continue to point out: Go back a few verses it says NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH. Isaiah 65:17. (This verse is quoted in Revelation 21, with a better promise, no death whatsoever).

Yeah, but you've missed the point each time. Isaiah has to be referring to the millennial kingdom, because death is still in operation, where Rev.21 is referring to after the millennial kingdom where death no longer exists.

To be clear, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Immediately following that is Rev.20:1-7 which represents the millennial kingdom, where at the on-set Satan is thrown into the Abyss so that he can't deceive the nations during that thousand years, which would demonstrate that the earth is not destroyed at the second coming. My purpose for bringing up Isa.65:17 was to show you that death is still in operation and therefore must be referring to the millennial kingdom, where opposition, death is no longer existing in Rev.21, which is the eternal state. Rev.21 & 22 are not descriptions of the millennial kingdom, but of the eternal state after everything has been accomplished, the church has been gathered, God's wrath has been poured out, Jesus has returned to the earth to end the age, Satan has been restricted to the Abyss, The millennial period has completed, Satan is released from the Abyss and thrown into the lake of fire, the great white throne judgment is completed and then the eternal state which is what Revelation chapters 21 & 22 are describing.

But Ahwatukee i'd like to ask. Since most likely you also believe that the churches in revelation are not only literal churches, but church eras, and most likely you believe Rev 3:10 is about the rapture:

First of all, I believe that the letters to the seven churches were to those literal churches, as well as to the entire church period right up until the Lord appears and calls up the church. But at the same time, the letters also represent the entire church period i.e. the "what is now," which we are still living in. The letters are a catalyst for every believer throughout the entire church period to examine themselves against them and to apply the rebukes and repent if the shoe fits.

If you were in the church of philadelphia in the first century and you got a letter from John, wouldn't you be surprised to find out that NONE OF IT, is to you? But to someone centuries later escaping in a rapture, while the letter is addressed to you in the church of philadelphia? OR do you believe there was a 1st century application to that as well? I want to hear it. Double prophecy so to speak.

As I previously stated, the letters are not only to the literal churches of that time, but to the entire church period. Allow me to use your reasoning here to show you the error of this thinking by considering the following:

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

The prophecy above was given to king Ahaz almost 800 years before Christ's birth took place saying "the Lord will give you a sign." So obviously, though Christ's birth was prophesied as a sign to king Ahaz, it was not to be fulfilled during his life time, but 800 years later. Just because a prophecy is given to one party or group, does not mean that it must necessarily be fulfilled during the time of those to whom it was proclaimed. It is the same with the letters to the churches. Some of the information contained in the letters is specifically for the church of that time and other information could not pertain to them such as Rev.3:10. That information could only pertain to that generation of believers living just before the beginning of the "hour of trial" in order to be kept out of that time of tribulation.

In regards to Rev.3:10, Jesus says that "Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

Using common sense then, since the "hour of trial," which is referring to the time of God's wrath which has not yet taken place, then using simple deduction, the information must be to that generation of believers who will be existing right before the time when the dead in Christ are raised and the living are changed and caught up. I could use many other examples regarding this erroneous thinking. Consider what Paul wrote in the following:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. "

Paul wrote the above almost 2000 years ago and even included himself as those who would be alive when the Lord returned and would be "caught up." Yet, Paul died and therefore he could not be apart of those who are still alive when the Lord appears to be caught up, but instead will be resurrected. There are too many examples of this to mention, so I don't know why you think that just because a letter was written to the church of Philadelphia, that its contents must be fulfilled specifically for them and during their life time. Don't you think that God knew that the church throughout every generation would be reading those letters? The letters are to them and the entire church period until the Lord gathers us.

For the wolf lying down with the lamb passages, why cant these be in the new earth as well? Certainly there will be animals on the new earth too. With all of creation being restored.

In answer to your question, will there be mortal people with their sinful natures living on the new heaven and earth, or will everyone at that time be in their immortal and glorified bodies? Scripture supports the latter. During the eternal state, which is what Rev.21 & 22 is referring to, there will be no marriage between men and women, for Jesus said, "in the resurrection they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be like the angels in heaven" and therefore no child bearing. Therefore, according to the scripture, where a young child will play near a Cobra's den and will lead those animals around, how could there be young children existing in the eternal state, since the former things will have passed away? Isaiah 65 would then have to be referring to the millennial kingdom and not the eternal state which follows.