What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[SpoonJuly]

The majority views---
The "church" will be raptured before the tribulation--
The anti-Christ will come from a revised Roman empire--
The anti-Christ will make a 7 year peace treaty with Israel--
The anti-Christ will break that treaty after three and a half years--
The seals and trumps are the wrath of God--
When Paul told the Corinthians that we would be changed at the LAST trump he did not mean LAST--

Something that I have learned over the years is that the majority view of Scripture is wrong most of the time.
Those who teach the majority views as listed above are wrong.

 

[John146]

Oh boy, here we go! When I do Bible Study, I really do Bible Study. I "hang" on every word, look up the meaning of words, read the context before and after the verse or verses in question and ask God the Holy Spirit to open the eyes of my heart. Now, I am not saying that some of you don't study the Bible intensively but it should be notied that many of the answers are verses or verses pulled out of context because you are not comparing scripture with scripture and not paying attention to what is being said.

You just stated that Matthew 24 is not the rapture and but it is describong the second coming. You also said "The Church is not yet founded." Contraire my friend, the Church is founded and do you know how I know? Just read the question that "four" of the disciples had ask Jesus. There were only four of them according to Mark 13:3, look it up.

Matthew 24:3, "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying. Tell us, (Tell us what can be found at verses 1-2.) (1) WHEN will these things be, (2) and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?" The term "coming" (Greek, parousia) refers to both arrival and presence. The second part of the question, "and the end of the world" the Greek word is aion, "age" period, era"

The following is what people fail to notice, like you failed to notice. Jesus DID NOT answer these questions according to a chronological sequence, but topically. Hwe wanted His followers to be more concerned about being ready for His coming than exactly when it woud occur. This is the idea that the Apostle Paul was stressing in his writings at 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

You know, be sober, be alert, were sons of light. Put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. And here at Matthew 24:4, "See to it that no one misleads you." In fact, (now that I think about it) please notice what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy2:15-18, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling ACCURATELY the word of truth."

Vs16, "But avoid worldy and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangerene, Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they have upset the faith of some." In other words, look how upset Paul was because a couple of guys were speading around that the resurrection had already occured. My point is that we should be extremely careful on what we say and that's why Paul told Timothy to "handle accurately the word of truth."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The Church, which is the body of Christ, did not begin until after the resurrection of Christ.

Let’s go through some verses in Matthew 24 shall we.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Has the end come? How come? Paul said that his gospel, the gospel of grace, has been preached in all the world, gone out to all nations, and preached to every creature under heaven.

You see, the gospel of the kingdom is a Jewish gospel concerning their Jewish Messiah ruling in Jerusalem on the throne of David. Matthew is concerning the Jews not the Church.

Romans 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Colossians 1
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The gospel of the kingdom will go back into effect during the tribulation leading up to the millennium kingdom on earth when Christ returns as King.

 

[John146]

Oh boy, here we go! When I do Bible Study, I really do Bible Study. I "hang" on every word, look up the meaning of words, read the context before and after the verse or verses in question and ask God the Holy Spirit to open the eyes of my heart. Now, I am not saying that some of you don't study the Bible intensively but it should be notied that many of the answers are verses or verses pulled out of context because you are not comparing scripture with scripture and not paying attention to what is being said.

You just stated that Matthew 24 is not the rapture and but it is describong the second coming. You also said "The Church is not yet founded." Contraire my friend, the Church is founded and do you know how I know? Just read the question that "four" of the disciples had ask Jesus. There were only four of them according to Mark 13:3, look it up.

Matthew 24:3, "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying. Tell us, (Tell us what can be found at verses 1-2.) (1) WHEN will these things be, (2) and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?" The term "coming" (Greek, parousia) refers to both arrival and presence. The second part of the question, "and the end of the world" the Greek word is aion, "age" period, era"

The following is what people fail to notice, like you failed to notice. Jesus DID NOT answer these questions according to a chronological sequence, but topically. Hwe wanted His followers to be more concerned about being ready for His coming than exactly when it woud occur. This is the idea that the Apostle Paul was stressing in his writings at 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

You know, be sober, be alert, were sons of light. Put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. And here at Matthew 24:4, "See to it that no one misleads you." In fact, (now that I think about it) please notice what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy2:15-18, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling ACCURATELY the word of truth."

Vs16, "But avoid worldy and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangerene, Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they have upset the faith of some." In other words, look how upset Paul was because a couple of guys were speading around that the resurrection had already occured. My point is that we should be extremely careful on what we say and that's why Paul told Timothy to "handle accurately the word of truth."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The Church is not in Judea. This is Israel. Also, the Church is not concerned with the sabbath like a Jew would be.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 

[John146]

Oh boy, here we go! When I do Bible Study, I really do Bible Study. I "hang" on every word, look up the meaning of words, read the context before and after the verse or verses in question and ask God the Holy Spirit to open the eyes of my heart. Now, I am not saying that some of you don't study the Bible intensively but it should be notied that many of the answers are verses or verses pulled out of context because you are not comparing scripture with scripture and not paying attention to what is being said.

You just stated that Matthew 24 is not the rapture and but it is describong the second coming. You also said "The Church is not yet founded." Contraire my friend, the Church is founded and do you know how I know? Just read the question that "four" of the disciples had ask Jesus. There were only four of them according to Mark 13:3, look it up.

Matthew 24:3, "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying. Tell us, (Tell us what can be found at verses 1-2.) (1) WHEN will these things be, (2) and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?" The term "coming" (Greek, parousia) refers to both arrival and presence. The second part of the question, "and the end of the world" the Greek word is aion, "age" period, era"

The following is what people fail to notice, like you failed to notice. Jesus DID NOT answer these questions according to a chronological sequence, but topically. Hwe wanted His followers to be more concerned about being ready for His coming than exactly when it woud occur. This is the idea that the Apostle Paul was stressing in his writings at 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

You know, be sober, be alert, were sons of light. Put on the breastplate of faith and love etc. And here at Matthew 24:4, "See to it that no one misleads you." In fact, (now that I think about it) please notice what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy2:15-18, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling ACCURATELY the word of truth."

Vs16, "But avoid worldy and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, vs17, and their talk will spread like gangerene, Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they have upset the faith of some." In other words, look how upset Paul was because a couple of guys were speading around that the resurrection had already occured. My point is that we should be extremely careful on what we say and that's why Paul told Timothy to "handle accurately the word of truth."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The temple is not the church’s holy place, but the Jews.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

 

[Nehemiah6]

the Church is founded [already] and do you know how I know? Just read the question that "four" of the disciples had ask Jesus. There were only four of them according to Mark 13:3, look it up.

How does that possibly prove that the Church was already in existence? At that point even the apostles had not received the gift of the Holy Ghost (which happened only after the resurrection of Christ). And the Church actually came into existence on the day of Pentecost, since the gift of the Holy Spirit to all believers was essential for the formation of the Church. So while you are berating others for not properly interpreting the Scriptures, you are seriously blundering on key issues yourself.

Matthew 24 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to say about the Church. It is primarily about Jerusalem, Judea, and the Jews, although worldwide developments are also included to indicate events between the first and second comings of Christ. Even the gathering of the *elect* by the holy angels mentioned in this chapter does not correspond to the Rapture, where Christ comes PERSONALLY to catch away His Bride. And in any even since the saints and angels come WITH Christ at His Second Coming, and these elect (Jews) are gathered up subsequently and brought to Israel after His return, that in itself should make it clear that the Rapture is not presented in Matthew 24 (or Mark 13 or Luke 21).

 

[bluto]

How does that possibly prove that the Church was already in existence? At that point even the apostles had not received the gift of the Holy Ghost (which happened only after the resurrection of Christ). And the Church actually came into existence on the day of Pentecost, since the gift of the Holy Spirit to all believers was essential for the formation of the Church. So while you are berating others for not properly interpreting the Scriptures, you are seriously blundering on key issues yourself.

Matthew 24 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to say about the Church. It is primarily about Jerusalem, Judea, and the Jews, although worldwide developments are also included to indicate events between the first and second comings of Christ. Even the gathering of the *elect* by the holy angels mentioned in this chapter does not correspond to the Rapture, where Christ comes PERSONALLY to catch away His Bride. And in any even since the saints and angels come WITH Christ at His Second Coming, and these elect (Jews) are gathered up subsequently and brought to Israel after His return, that in itself should make it clear that the Rapture is not presented in Matthew 24 (or Mark 13 or Luke 21).

Look, I am "NOT" discounting what happened to Jerusalem about 40 years later/70AD when the Roman army captured Jerusalem and destroyed the city and the Temple. I'm saying this was a "pre-figure" of what is going to happen at the end of the world based on the diciples question at Matthew 24:3. So my question still stands, when does the pretrib rapture happen anywhere in the events that Jesus talked about in Matthew chapter 24? Where are you going to "shoehorn" it in? Or to put in another way, where or how are you going to fit two pounds of bologna in a one pound bag?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Nehemiah6]

So my question still stands, when does the pretrib rapture happen anywhere in the events that Jesus talked about in Matthew chapter 24?

It is not a part of the narrative. Jesus would introduce the doctrine of the Rapture at the Last Supper, and just before His crucifixion. See John 14. But He gives intimation of His imminent coming for His saints in Matthew 24 and 25.

 

[John146]

Look, I am "NOT" discounting what happened to Jerusalem about 40 years later/70AD when the Roman army captured Jerusalem and destroyed the city and the Temple. I'm saying this was a "pre-figure" of what is going to happen at the end of the world based on the diciples question at Matthew 24:3. So my question still stands, when does the pretrib rapture happen anywhere in the events that Jesus talked about in Matthew chapter 24? Where are you going to "shoehorn" it in? Or to put in another way, where or how are you going to fit two pounds of bologna in a one pound bag?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You should learn to rightly divide the Church from Israel. The Church is not found in the chapter, therefore the rapture of the Church is not found. The gathering of the elect are the Jewish servants during the tribulation.

 

[bluto]

It is not a part of the narrative. Jesus would introduce the doctrine of the Rapture at the Last Supper, and just before His crucifixion. See John 14. But He gives intimation of His imminent coming for His saints in Matthew 24 and 25.

Can you please be more specific as to what Jesus said at the Last Supper that proves the rapture? Btw, the church began (formally)on the day of Pentecost 50 days after the crucifixion of Jesus and remember, He appeared often for about 40 days before the Day of Pentecost. So again, from the Day of Pentecost until now where was the pretrib rapture taught?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[TooFastTurtle]

The majority views---
The "church" will be raptured before the tribulation--
The anti-Christ will come from a revised Roman empire--
The anti-Christ will make a 7 year peace treaty with Israel--
The anti-Christ will break that treaty after three and a half years--
The seals and trumps are the wrath of God--
When Paul told the Corinthians that we would be changed at the LAST trump he did not mean LAST--

Something that I have learned over the years is that the majority view of Scripture is wrong most of the time.
Those who teach the majority views as listed above are wrong.

If you knew. This is not the majority view that you described. The majority view is amillennialism. Pre-trib is far from majority. Catholics alone are 1 billion amillennialists

 

[SpoonJuly]

If you knew. This is not the majority view that you described. The majority view is amillennialism. Pre-trib is far from majority. Catholics alone are 1 billion amillennialists

I was speaking about Christians not Catholics.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Can you please be more specific as to what Jesus said at the Last Supper that proves the rapture? Btw, the church began (formally)on the day of Pentecost 50 days after the crucifixion of Jesus and remember, He appeared often for about 40 days before the Day of Pentecost. So again, from the Day of Pentecost until now where was the pretrib rapture taught?

The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist (2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8). There isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period. In fact, if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible. If we compare Scriptures having to do with the Translation of the Church (i.e., the Rapture), with those passages relating to the setting up of Christ's Kingdom, one can only reasonably conclude that it would be utterly IMPOSSIBLE for these two events to occur simultaneously. Let's look at some of the comparisons:

Matthew 25:31,32 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations" Carefully notice that Jesus is going to sit upon His throne in Jerusalem when He returns, and the nations of earth will be gathered before Him to be judged. How can this fact be reconciled with 1st Thessalonians 4:17, which states that the saints will be caught up together to meet with the Lord in the air?


Matthew 25:32 to 34 - "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." When the Lord returns to the earth at the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going to gather the nations of the earth together—separating the sheep from the goats (vs. 32), i.e., the righteous from the unrighteous. The sheep (saved) will simply enter the Kingdom, and the goats (unbelievers) be cast into everlasting fire. The test in this judgment is the treatment accorded by the nations to those whom Christ here calls "my brethren." These brethren are the Jewish remnant (i.e., the 144,000) who will have preached the Gospel of the kingdom to all nations during the Tribulation. Carefully notice, there is NO mention of a resurrection and the persons judged are the nations of the earth. In sharp contrast, according to 1st Corinthians 15:52 there WILL BE a resurrection at the time of the Rapture.

It is important to recognize that when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom there is NO Rapture, i.e., no one is caught up into the air to be with the Lord. People who become Christians during the Tribulation Period will enter with their earthly bodies into the Millennium. Proof of this is found in Isaiah 65:20-25, and in Zechariah 8:5 where children are mentioned playing during the Millennium. Those saved during the Tribulation will enter physically into the Millennial Kingdom. Where will these humans come from if the saints are ALL raptured and changed at the END of the Tribulation, i.e., a Postribulation Rapture? Obviously this cannot be. The only logical conclusion is a Pretribulation Rapture!


Jude 1:14 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." Carefully notice that NO mention is made of a Rapture at this time. Quite the contrary, here the Lord Jesus is returning with TEN THOUSANDS of His saints to the earth. That is drastically different than having our bodies changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and being "caught up" into the clouds to meet with the Lord. It would make no sense to say that Jesus is going to Rapture the saints, while coming to set up His Kingdom at the same time. Proof that this is not the case is the fact that Jesus will gather the nations and separate the sheep from the goats, i.e., the saved from the unsaved, at His Second Coming. Why would Jesus separate the saints TWICE? That is, why would Jesus Rapture the saints into the air, and then regather the SAME people a short time later when He arrived on the earth? Do you see the dilemma of the Postribulation heresy?


Revelation 19:11 to 14 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Here we read about ARMIES from Heaven, riding upon white horses, following Christ into the Battle of Armageddon. There is NO mention of a Rapture. There is NOTHING in 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 or 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 about armies, or ten thousands of saints, coming to earth to war. The exact opposite is stated... we will be LEAVING this sin-cursed earth! Amen!

These are but a few clear and irrefutable Scriptural evidences teaching a Pretribulation Rapture.

Source

 

[SpoonJuly]

The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist (2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8). There isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period. In fact, if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible. If we compare Scriptures having to do with the Translation of the Church (i.e., the Rapture), with those passages relating to the setting up of Christ's Kingdom, one can only reasonably conclude that it would be utterly IMPOSSIBLE for these two events to occur simultaneously. Let's look at some of the comparisons:

Matthew 25:31,32 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations" Carefully notice that Jesus is going to sit upon His throne in Jerusalem when He returns, and the nations of earth will be gathered before Him to be judged. How can this fact be reconciled with 1st Thessalonians 4:17, which states that the saints will be caught up together to meet with the Lord in the air?


Matthew 25:32 to 34 - "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." When the Lord returns to the earth at the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going to gather the nations of the earth together—separating the sheep from the goats (vs. 32), i.e., the righteous from the unrighteous. The sheep (saved) will simply enter the Kingdom, and the goats (unbelievers) be cast into everlasting fire. The test in this judgment is the treatment accorded by the nations to those whom Christ here calls "my brethren." These brethren are the Jewish remnant (i.e., the 144,000) who will have preached the Gospel of the kingdom to all nations during the Tribulation. Carefully notice, there is NO mention of a resurrection and the persons judged are the nations of the earth. In sharp contrast, according to 1st Corinthians 15:52 there WILL BE a resurrection at the time of the Rapture.

It is important to recognize that when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom there is NO Rapture, i.e., no one is caught up into the air to be with the Lord. People who become Christians during the Tribulation Period will enter with their earthly bodies into the Millennium. Proof of this is found in Isaiah 65:20-25, and in Zechariah 8:5 where children are mentioned playing during the Millennium. Those saved during the Tribulation will enter physically into the Millennial Kingdom. Where will these humans come from if the saints are ALL raptured and changed at the END of the Tribulation, i.e., a Postribulation Rapture? Obviously this cannot be. The only logical conclusion is a Pretribulation Rapture!


Jude 1:14 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." Carefully notice that NO mention is made of a Rapture at this time. Quite the contrary, here the Lord Jesus is returning with TEN THOUSANDS of His saints to the earth. That is drastically different than having our bodies changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and being "caught up" into the clouds to meet with the Lord. It would make no sense to say that Jesus is going to Rapture the saints, while coming to set up His Kingdom at the same time. Proof that this is not the case is the fact that Jesus will gather the nations and separate the sheep from the goats, i.e., the saved from the unsaved, at His Second Coming. Why would Jesus separate the saints TWICE? That is, why would Jesus Rapture the saints into the air, and then regather the SAME people a short time later when He arrived on the earth? Do you see the dilemma of the Postribulation heresy?


Revelation 19:11 to 14 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Here we read about ARMIES from Heaven, riding upon white horses, following Christ into the Battle of Armageddon. There is NO mention of a Rapture. There is NOTHING in 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 or 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 about armies, or ten thousands of saints, coming to earth to war. The exact opposite is stated... we will be LEAVING this sin-cursed earth! Amen!

These are but a few clear and irrefutable Scriptural evidences teaching a Pretribulation Rapture.

Source

So Paul lied in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 when he said the dead shall rise and we shall be changed at the LAST trump.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

So Paul lied in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 when he said the dead shall rise and we shall be changed at the LAST trump.

Now you are just trying to use provocative language and acting as if we do not believe in 1 Cor 15:51-53 or think Paul lied. That is not a proper way to conduct yourself

Despite this I will give an answer for the hope that I have:

I believe Jesus fulfills all the Jewish feasts:

Passover - Sacrifice of the Messiah as our passover lamb
Unleavened bread - The sinless life of Christ
First fruits - The resurrection of the Lord Jesus as the first fruits (first resurrection)
Pentecost - The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Church was founded here

These spring feasts have already been fulfilled, these autumn feasts are yet to be fulfilled:

Feast of Trumpets - The blessed hope, the rapture, resurrection of the Church. Jesus coming to take us home
Day of Atonement - This is the second coming WITH the Church, at which point many Jews mourn and are converted.
Feast of Tabernacles - This happens when the Lord reigns on the earth, the Lord tabernacles with the people.

You can read these in order from Leviticus 23.

Reason I bring this up is because I believe the 'last trumpet mentioned by Paul is the last trumpet being sounded to fulfill the feast of trumpets. The Corinthians had no idea about the trumpets of Revelation, the book was not written until later.
Perhaps some made the connection Matthew 24, I will give you that, but on close examination, you notice there is no resurrection mentioned in Matthew 24.

 

[bluto]

The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist (2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8). There isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period. In fact, if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible. If we compare Scriptures having to do with the Translation of the Church (i.e., the Rapture), with those passages relating to the setting up of Christ's Kingdom, one can only reasonably conclude that it would be utterly IMPOSSIBLE for these two events to occur simultaneously. Let's look at some of the comparisons:

Matthew 25:31,32 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations" Carefully notice that Jesus is going to sit upon His throne in Jerusalem when He returns, and the nations of earth will be gathered before Him to be judged. How can this fact be reconciled with 1st Thessalonians 4:17, which states that the saints will be caught up together to meet with the Lord in the air?


Matthew 25:32 to 34 - "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." When the Lord returns to the earth at the Second Coming WITH His own, He is going to gather the nations of the earth together—separating the sheep from the goats (vs. 32), i.e., the righteous from the unrighteous. The sheep (saved) will simply enter the Kingdom, and the goats (unbelievers) be cast into everlasting fire. The test in this judgment is the treatment accorded by the nations to those whom Christ here calls "my brethren." These brethren are the Jewish remnant (i.e., the 144,000) who will have preached the Gospel of the kingdom to all nations during the Tribulation. Carefully notice, there is NO mention of a resurrection and the persons judged are the nations of the earth. In sharp contrast, according to 1st Corinthians 15:52 there WILL BE a resurrection at the time of the Rapture.

It is important to recognize that when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom there is NO Rapture, i.e., no one is caught up into the air to be with the Lord. People who become Christians during the Tribulation Period will enter with their earthly bodies into the Millennium. Proof of this is found in Isaiah 65:20-25, and in Zechariah 8:5 where children are mentioned playing during the Millennium. Those saved during the Tribulation will enter physically into the Millennial Kingdom. Where will these humans come from if the saints are ALL raptured and changed at the END of the Tribulation, i.e., a Postribulation Rapture? Obviously this cannot be. The only logical conclusion is a Pretribulation Rapture!


Jude 1:14 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." Carefully notice that NO mention is made of a Rapture at this time. Quite the contrary, here the Lord Jesus is returning with TEN THOUSANDS of His saints to the earth. That is drastically different than having our bodies changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and being "caught up" into the clouds to meet with the Lord. It would make no sense to say that Jesus is going to Rapture the saints, while coming to set up His Kingdom at the same time. Proof that this is not the case is the fact that Jesus will gather the nations and separate the sheep from the goats, i.e., the saved from the unsaved, at His Second Coming. Why would Jesus separate the saints TWICE? That is, why would Jesus Rapture the saints into the air, and then regather the SAME people a short time later when He arrived on the earth? Do you see the dilemma of the Postribulation heresy?


Revelation 19:11 to 14 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Here we read about ARMIES from Heaven, riding upon white horses, following Christ into the Battle of Armageddon. There is NO mention of a Rapture. There is NOTHING in 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 or 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 about armies, or ten thousands of saints, coming to earth to war. The exact opposite is stated... we will be LEAVING this sin-cursed earth! Amen!

These are but a few clear and irrefutable Scriptural evidences teaching a Pretribulation Rapture.

Source

Now that's rich! You said the following to me: "if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible." What do you think I have been doing for the last 57 years, playing jacks? Why aren't you studying the Bible for yorself instead of quoting David Stewart as a source for your post?

And no, I'm not picking on you, just making an observation. I have one question for you from Matthew 24:3 to get you to think for yourself. It says, "And He/Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, (Please read what was said at verses 1 and 2), and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE WORLD?" So please read the rest of chapter 24 of Matthew and tell me where the rapture can be found? I'm not interested in hapter 25, chapter 24 comes first.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[SpoonJuly]

Now you are just trying to use provocative language and acting as if we do not believe in 1 Cor 15:51-53 or think Paul lied. That is not a proper way to conduct yourself

Despite this I will give an answer for the hope that I have:

I believe Jesus fulfills all the Jewish feasts:

Passover - Sacrifice of the Messiah as our passover lamb
Unleavened bread - The sinless life of Christ
First fruits - The resurrection of the Lord Jesus as the first fruits (first resurrection)
Pentecost - The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Church was founded here

These spring feasts have already been fulfilled, these autumn feasts are yet to be fulfilled:

Feast of Trumpets - The blessed hope, the rapture, resurrection of the Church. Jesus coming to take us home
Day of Atonement - This is the second coming WITH the Church, at which point many Jews mourn and are converted.
Feast of Tabernacles - This happens when the Lord reigns on the earth, the Lord tabernacles with the people.

You can read these in order from Leviticus 23.

Reason I bring this up is because I believe the 'last trumpet mentioned by Paul is the last trumpet being sounded to fulfill the feast of trumpets. The Corinthians had no idea about the trumpets of Revelation, the book was not written until later.
Perhaps some made the connection Matthew 24, I will give you that, but on close examination, you notice there is no resurrection mentioned in Matthew 24.

Well, that is the first time that I heard that explanation for the Last trump.

I learnd a long time ago that discussing end time events on this or any internet forum is a waste of time.
I have never seen anyone change their mind. So I will leave you to your misunderstanding of Scripture.

 

[John146]

Now that's rich! You said the following to me: "if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible." What do you think I have been doing for the last 57 years, playing jacks? Why aren't you studying the Bible for yorself instead of quoting David Stewart as a source for your post?

And no, I'm not picking on you, just making an observation. I have one question for you from Matthew 24:3 to get you to think for yourself. It says, "And He/Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, (Please read what was said at verses 1 and 2), and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE WORLD?" So please read the rest of chapter 24 of Matthew and tell me where the rapture can be found? I'm not interested in hapter 25, chapter 24 comes first.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Better yet, show us where the Church is in chapter 24. Thanks.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Now that's rich! You said the following to me: "if you want proof of a Pretribulation Rapture, you'll find it simply by studying the Bible." What do you think I have been doing for the last 57 years, playing jacks? Why aren't you studying the Bible for yorself instead of quoting David Stewart as a source for your post?

And no, I'm not picking on you, just making an observation. I have one question for you from Matthew 24:3 to get you to think for yourself. It says, "And He/Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, (Please read what was said at verses 1 and 2), and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE WORLD?" So please read the rest of chapter 24 of Matthew and tell me where the rapture can be found? I'm not interested in hapter 25, chapter 24 comes first.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

As you saw I quoted an article.

Where can the rapture be found in Matthew 24? Matthew 24:36 is about it in my opinion, but honestly I believe Matthew 24 is not about the rapture that is not what the disciples asked, Jesus introduces that topic later in John 14:1-3. You cannot reconcile John 14:1-3 with the gathering in Matthew 24:31. In Matthew the elect are gathered to Jerusalem and its on the earth, whereas in John 14:1-3 it is in heaven, these are different events clearly.

The actual specifics of the rapture is a mystery revealed to Paul later on, meaning exactly how it all happens, how are we transformed. Paul says it himself:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Well, that is the first time that I heard that explanation for the Last trump.

I learnd a long time ago that discussing end time events on this or any internet forum is a waste of time.
I have never seen anyone change their mind. So I will leave you to your misunderstanding of Scripture.

Yet you decided to partake and waste your time? Not very smart.

You are correct that people rarely change their minds. I went from unsure to fully persuaded.

Thanks for your condescending remarks, God will bless me for it.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Yet you decided to partake and waste your time? Not very smart.

You are correct that people rarely change their minds. I went from unsure to fully persuaded.

Thanks for your condescending remarks, God will bless me for it.

If I offended you by what I said or how I said it I am sorry. Was not my intent.
This is why I usually stay away from these discussions. People seem to be very easily offended by what i say or how i say it.