What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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I'm not going to try to prove nothing ; I can tell someone what that's all I can do , But I can not make them under stand or keep them from twisting it ,where it don't what they don't like . WHEN THE BIBLE SAYS SOMETHING , THAT SATTLES FOR ME . But one thing that GOD has showed is that when HIS word don't line up all the way through the BIBLE , It is because we are misunderstanding what it is saying.
The BIBLE explains it's self , & don't tell one thing in one place & another thing somewhere else . If we are not twisting it . GOD BE WITH YOU AS HE SEES FIT .
Its too general.

Not a discussion.

In a discussion you defend your position.

That is what is meant by "proof"
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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To be dead is to be asleep in the ground , Till Jesus comes and waketh them op , When they wake up ,even if it's been a1000 years it will be as a blink of the eye ,
Soul sleep vs going to heaven.

Both have talking points
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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Great question!! Vespasian, Titus and Domitian were all declared Caesar at the same time in Dec 69 AD. They were the unholy Trinity. This was done to ensure a stable line of succession for the new Flavian Dynasty. When Titus broke through to the Temple, his solders bowed down, made sacrifices to him and worshiped him declaring him imperator.

Imperator ("commander"): Roman title, awarded to victorious commanders and emperors.
No mark or restrictions of comerce.

Preterism is a rabbit trail
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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To be dead is to be asleep in the ground , Till Jesus comes and waketh them op , When they wake up ,even if it's been a1000 years it will be as a blink of the eye ,
I reiterate what I said, and it's important. There are two types of being alive and two types of death. Actually, to be dead is NOT to be asleep in the ground. Physical death is when one's mortal body dies. It decays and returns to dust from whence it came. This teaching is clear. The flesh body has served its usefulness and not one molecule of it is part of our spiritual body. This body, dead, decayed and dust is eaten by worms, it's corrupted and Paul makes clear no part of our corrupt body can become spiritual.

BELIEVER: BORN (1st life) ACCEPTS CHRIST (2nd life) DIES (1st DEATH) the second death has no power.
UNBELIEVER: BORN (1st Life) DIES (1st Death), CONDEMNED (2nd DEATH) has no second life.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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To be dead is to be asleep in the ground , Till Jesus comes and waketh them op , When they wake up ,even if it's been a1000 years it will be as a blink of the eye ,
Your point about sleeping, I should be more clear. "Sleeping" in this context means await in Hades until Christ returned circa 66 AD and freed the captives who were "sleeping" or "resting" there. We don't sleep anymore. When we die, we immediately go to heaven. Hades is closed to us.

Did someone else say something? I couldn't tell.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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To be even more clear, the resurrection (leaving Hades) does not apply to us. We become new creatures when we accept Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


This is one of the main benefits and examples of the powers of our age as compared to the last age.
 

bud62

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Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
Your point about sleeping, I should be more clear. "Sleeping" in this context means await in Hades until Christ returned circa 66 AD and freed the captives who were "sleeping" or "resting" there. We don't sleep anymore. When we die, we immediately go to heaven. Hades is closed to us.

Did someone else say something? I couldn't tell.
I want you to know that JESUS was raised From the Grave first ,then preached to those in prison which are lost people that are in sin , that's was those that where in prison , He was not preaching to a Ghost ,like you are thinking ,ECCLESIASTES 9:5 For the living know that they shall die ; but thedead knownot any thing , neither have they any more a reward ; for the memory of them is forgotten .
Also their love, & their hatred, & their envy , is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. He had to go to peter & the rest of them . And preach to the living dead . When we are in sin , WE are in prison to sin . JESUS tells us that .
 

bud62

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washburn Tn
we don't get no second chance once we Die there is no getting right with GOD .SO shall a tree fall, so shall it lay .
Preaching to someone that is dead go against all the BIBLE teaches GOD BLESS AS HE SEES FIT .
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Great question!! Vespasian, Titus and Domitian were all declared Caesar at the same time in Dec 69 AD. They were the unholy Trinity. This was done to ensure a stable line of succession for the new Flavian Dynasty. When Titus broke through to the Temple, his solders bowed down, made sacrifices to him and worshiped him declaring him imperator.

Imperator ("commander"): Roman title, awarded to victorious commanders and emperors.

lol, Cassius Dio I liked the part in 7,2 where neither got Judaicus then chapter 8 where Vespasian can heal people with a withered hand and the blind(Just like Jesus) but my favorite is ch.9.4 where Vespasian spent most of his time impaling flies on a stylus. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/65*.html
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Nope
Israel is not the head that recieves a deadly wound.
Your using "receives" (future tense) but in Revelation 17:8 the beast that was(past tense) and is not(don't exist anymore at that time) ,,,and shall ascend(future tense) ect. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+17:8&version=KJV

So at the time Revelation was given and 17:8 was being explained to John the beast that was,is not yet is had already received it's deadly wound and the angel is explaining it would ascend out of the pit at some time after the Revelation was given/seen so it received it's wound prior to Revelation being received and ascended out of the pit afterwards in time. Your thinking it's going to receive a wound and the is saying it already had received it.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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lol, I don't see Cassius Dio as a credible source of history either.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I want you to know that JESUS was raised From the Grave first ,then preached to those in prison which are lost people that are in sin , that's was those that where in prison , He was not preaching to a Ghost ,like you are thinking ,ECCLESIASTES 9:5 For the living know that they shall die ; but thedead knownot any thing , neither have they any more a reward ; for the memory of them is forgotten .
Also their love, & their hatred, & their envy , is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. He had to go to peter & the rest of them . And preach to the living dead . When we are in sin , WE are in prison to sin . JESUS tells us that .
The Ecc passage deals with the lost dead. Guess you need to read up a little more if you don't think Christ went to Hades. Since He went to Hades while His body was in the tomb, what do you suppose He was doing there, playing backgammon?

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient...

Acts 2:27
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31
he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

1 Corinthians 15:55
“O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?


1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:18
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


I wonder what Christ did with the Keys to Hades?? Did Hades have a lock trapping souls inside? Hmm.
 

bud62

Active member
Jan 4, 2020
342
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washburn Tn
The Ecc passage deals with the lost dead. Guess you need to read up a little more if you don't think Christ went to Hades. Since He went to Hades while His body was in the tomb, what do you suppose He was doing there, playing backgammon?

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient...

Acts 2:27
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.


Acts 2:31
he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.


1 Corinthians 15:55
“O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?


1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:18
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.


Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


I wonder what Christ did with the Keys to Hades?? Did Hades have a lock trapping souls inside? Hmm.
No they are a sleep wating on the second resurrection . They don't anything as the BIBLE says they are.
No you are wrong IT is all the dead that is asleep in their Graves .
This verse should show you that the dead is in the dust , even Isaiah is still in the dust ,
Isaiah 26:19 thy dead man shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. awake and sing, ye that dfwell in the dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. .And their are with Isaiah body .
AND Hades MEANS THE GRAVE , The place of the dead ,I HAVE looked it UP .
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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we don't get no second chance once we Die there is no getting right with GOD .SO shall a tree fall, so shall it lay .
Preaching to someone that is dead go against all the BIBLE teaches GOD BLESS AS HE SEES FIT .
Except for those who never heard the Word before the Gospel was preached to the world. Everyone gets to make a personal choice of acceptance or rejection.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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No they are a sleep wating on the second resurrection . They don't anything as the BIBLE says they are.
No you are wrong IT is all the dead that is asleep in their Graves .
This verse should show you that the dead is in the dust , even Isaiah is still in the dust ,
Isaiah 26:19 thy dead man shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. awake and sing, ye that dfwell in the dust; for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. .And their are with Isaiah body .
AND Hades MEANS THE GRAVE , The place of the dead ,I HAVE looked it UP .
Hades is NOT the grave. It is not multiple holes in the ground containing the rotting corpses of the dead. Read Luke 16. It is the underworld realm of the dead, the place where souls went. Hades was divided into two parts separated by a gulf. In the OT, Hades is called Sheol. Check out the footnote below this passage.

Psm 86
12 I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart,
And I will glorify Your name forevermore.
13 For great is Your mercy toward me,
And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol [d].


d. Psalm 86:13 The abode of the dead.

We see in Acts 2 that David's body is still in the ground.

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

The timing of this deliverance of David's soul from Sheol (Hades) Peter explains, as David did, was when Christ made His enemies His footstool. Christ's enemies where those who put Him to death and they got what was coming to them in 70 AD.

The Isa 26 passage you quoted is similar to the Ezek 37 passage of dry bones coming back to life. These are both metaphors for Israel returning to life as a powerful nation after their Babylonian judgment captivity. I hope this helps?
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Do you really believe Vespasian had healing powers?
As a son of (belonging to) Satan? Of course, Rev 13 tells us that Satan gives the Beast of the Earth (Israel) powers to perform miracles. Vespasian was the 7th head of the Beast. All of the Caesars were Satanic and many were sick puppies. Did you read about the conception of Augustus? Not saying I believe a snake impregnated his mother literally, rather I think the message was that this dude was spawned by Satan. The Romans were an Imperial Cult. They worshiped the Greek Gods and considered the Caesars as gods. Much of their coinage states this. Clearly there was a lot of evil in those days and the historians of those days wrote a lot about it.

It matters less what we think and more about what they were thinking. This from Josephus:

for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

Many of them knew it was Vespasian.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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If Jim or Plain would, I am curious as to how you answer these questions? If not, I completely understand.


Is this the "restored earth" with only of the true theocracy but also of that more perfect state of (even physical) things which existed before the fall?
Was all prophecy fulfilled?
How is it I am flesh and blood yet flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
Why hasn't EVERYONE put on incorruption? How is it possible that when Christ returns ALL are changed, but we STILL have not?

If a "millennium" is a thousand years, then how are we still in it?
Okay the very heart of the matter, all that scripture you posted, praise His name, all points to what I am saying here, but I LOVE this question "So my question are if Christ returned from heaven, where is He now?"
Well, He is sitting on His throne at the right hand of the Father with All authority in heaven and on earth. Ruling until, by His will and power, His Spirit on earth is bringing everything under Christ, to His kingdom, a spiritual kingdom that we are in "RIGHT NOW TODAY", if we are in Him. This kingdom will know no end, and He even tells us how it grows in the parable you posted, it grows like the mustard seed, starts off the smallest, but over time grows to shade the whole garden so all can find rest in it's shade and branches. Also He does have to, after all enemies have been made a foot stool for His feet, return to earth, believers and unbelievers will be raised, and final judgment will occur. Then there will be a new heaven and earth and the entrance into the eternal state.

What He tells us the kingdom is NOT is something we point to and say "there is the kingdom of God", think about it. If you are waiting for Jesus to bring His kingdom on the clouds in a way we can point to and say "there is the kingdom of God", I think that is exactly what He told us it wasn't, and was and is to this day the same misconception the Jews have on what the Messiah will be. That's just what I think. As far as the 1000 year thing I have to just admit I'm not 100% on that particular issue yet. I haven't looked into it yet much, but thank you I have a motivation to answer that now, just to kind of show I already looked into it trying to see any possible argument that are out there and I haven't read much at all , just glanced over one that spoke about the verse that talks about the "ushering in of the millennial kingdom", again I am going look look into this much deeper now, but that ushering in maybe giving time in between some of this 1,000. I realize how weak, shoddy, and hollow this is, and I don't even accept it as any kind of answer to your question, but it was just all I could find in a quick Google search in the middle of a comment.:D