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K
Originally Posted by KingdomGeneration
He is saying,Have you or your church ever operated in the the healing or delivering power of the cross through the holy spirit.
In other words,Have you ever been delivered By the power of what Christ Jesus did on the cross by the which is written,"By His stripes are we healed",
Or have you ever been in close contact to a person that has had this happen or this exact expierience.
I think.......
He is saying,Have you or your church ever operated in the the healing or delivering power of the cross through the holy spirit.
In other words,Have you ever been delivered By the power of what Christ Jesus did on the cross by the which is written,"By His stripes are we healed",
Or have you ever been in close contact to a person that has had this happen or this exact expierience.
I think.......
Here's what I'm implying....
When Jesus was questioned by the pharisees and the like about by who's authority does you do these things (signs and wonders) Jesus would reply that His Father in heaven honors His requests. Scripture also tells us that signs and wonders SHALL FOLLOW those that truly believe.
I tell you that through the power of the Cross, which is the infinite love of the father and his son and for his people, I was not only delivered but also sanctified from the chains of lust. I tell you I am free, Praise God! However, just because what I had to say did not match up with his doctrine, this guy jumps on here and attempts to deny the work in which God has done in my life. So I asked him, when was the last time that he or someone else in his church was healed or delivered or operated in that kind of annointing and all I got was a desperate attempt to hide behind religious speech.
BLC, when was the last time God honored your request? When was the last time the manifested presence of God bore witness to the doctrine that you preach? When's the last time 10, 20, 50, 100, 1000 people rushed to the alters in repentance not because of some fancy speech but because God himself was in the house? How many people were healed? How many delivered? Just what is the fruit of your ministry?
If your answer is none or never, then you need to check yourself my friend because you may very well be a pharisee...
C
Heretics like Paul Washer teach that sinners must stop living in sin in order to be saved; whereas the Bible teaches that we need only come as GUILTY sinners to Jesus for forgiveness. God is the One Who changes our life. There's a big difference between repentance "OF" one's sins, verses "FROM" one's sins. The Word of God teaches that we simply need to realize we are GUILTY sinners for violating God's holy Law and turn to Jesus to be forgiven (Romans 3:19; Acts 16:31).
I'd choose to listen to Charles Stanley any day over the false teacher paul washer.
I'd choose to listen to Charles Stanley any day over the false teacher paul washer.
KindomGeneration,
First I am thankful for anything that God has delivered you from. It reveals to me the goodness of God. The fruit of the Spirit is love. If I forgive my brother or bear his burden is that somehow lacking in God's power and benefits of grace? If I lay my life down for my friend and cover his sin, is the Holy Spirit some how not a part of that love? If I give a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple is that something God takes lightly? If I visit the sick and feed those that hunger and cloth the naked, am I doing something outside the will of God? If I don't let my right know what my left hand is doing, does that go unnoticed with God? If I bestow more abundant honor on them that seem to be less honorable, is that lacking the power of God's love?
If I sow the precious seed or even water that which has been sowed by others, is it not God that gives the increase? If I visit the fatherless and the widows, is not this pure and undefiled before God? If I refuse to think evil because that is what love does, should I be judged for not thinking evil? If I pray and believe that all things are possible, am I doing wrong or lacking in faith? If I preach the gospel and confess the name of Christ to 1,000 people with no response, does God consider that to be in vanity with no fruit? When a mother loves her children and brings them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord is she not obeying what God desires because of love? When we walk by faith and not by sight and trust God, is that not pleasing to the Father? Are not all these things that have been mentioned part of the anointing and instructions that we have of God through the Holy Spirit? Is there no power of God revealed in these things that can effect others for eternity?
First I am thankful for anything that God has delivered you from. It reveals to me the goodness of God. The fruit of the Spirit is love. If I forgive my brother or bear his burden is that somehow lacking in God's power and benefits of grace? If I lay my life down for my friend and cover his sin, is the Holy Spirit some how not a part of that love? If I give a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple is that something God takes lightly? If I visit the sick and feed those that hunger and cloth the naked, am I doing something outside the will of God? If I don't let my right know what my left hand is doing, does that go unnoticed with God? If I bestow more abundant honor on them that seem to be less honorable, is that lacking the power of God's love?
If I sow the precious seed or even water that which has been sowed by others, is it not God that gives the increase? If I visit the fatherless and the widows, is not this pure and undefiled before God? If I refuse to think evil because that is what love does, should I be judged for not thinking evil? If I pray and believe that all things are possible, am I doing wrong or lacking in faith? If I preach the gospel and confess the name of Christ to 1,000 people with no response, does God consider that to be in vanity with no fruit? When a mother loves her children and brings them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord is she not obeying what God desires because of love? When we walk by faith and not by sight and trust God, is that not pleasing to the Father? Are not all these things that have been mentioned part of the anointing and instructions that we have of God through the Holy Spirit? Is there no power of God revealed in these things that can effect others for eternity?
Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation:
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Apostolic Christian position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But the following verses, as well as Church Teaching, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.
Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."
1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).
Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace. Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation. 2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life. 1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His Commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Apostolic Christian position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But the following verses, as well as Church Teaching, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.
Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."
1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).
Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace. Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.
2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation. 2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life. 1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His Commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.
K
That is a shame Canadian that, in your own religious pride, you would rather continue live in sexual immorality than accept the possibility that you may have put your trust in false teachings. May god have mercy on you sincerely...
I'll never understand how certain denominations can be so full of pride...
I'll never understand how certain denominations can be so full of pride...
C
No, at the time I was saved I didn't even know who Charles Stanley was. I believed in God before I was saved and I knew OF Jesus Christ but I didn't KNOW Jesus Christ. What caused my breakthrough was that God allowed me to see demons. I could see them basically everywhere. When I saw the demons, I saw absolute pure evil. From my experience, it's actually hard for our human minds to comprehend how evil they really are. The demons spiritually attacked me for months, on a daily basis. This wasn't just a one time sighting. At the same time, God showed me that the entire Bible is totally true. I put all my faith and trust in Jesus Christ ALONE. I was shown that Jesus is the TRUTH.
I've since spoken to other individuals with the similar experiences that identify seeing these demons and God showing us that this is totally really- that this event caused me and some others to totally turn to God. God does allow some to see beyond the veil in order for us to come to him. It's amazing how some other stories out there are similar to mine.
satan knows that I know the truth now. only recently has he fled. satan used demonic intimidation and harrassment for months. I mean, I saw demons with the most evil grin I have ever seen.
I give all my thanks and praise to God. Calling upon Jesus' name is powerful. I give ALL the glory to Jesus Christ because it's truly amazing how good he is and how he is so powerful to keep such evil away and protect his children. God is definately in control.
During the harassment, I heard a demon speak 'audibly' to me. It was trying to tell me that it was my friend. In fact, the exact wording was "I am your friend". I knew it was a demon. It's hard to descibe how I knew, but I just knew for sure it was not God or any 'heavenly' being. But God has spoken to me a few times, and I recognize his voice immediately. It's a gentle voice. A loving voice. It's mostly like a 'gentle thought' that I clearly KNOW is not from me. I am one of the sheep that hear his voice, quite literally. Obviously, everyone's experience is different. But I hear his voice and I know it's him. He spoken to me on a few occassions. That's how I know that I am one of God's children.
I've since spoken to other individuals with the similar experiences that identify seeing these demons and God showing us that this is totally really- that this event caused me and some others to totally turn to God. God does allow some to see beyond the veil in order for us to come to him. It's amazing how some other stories out there are similar to mine.
satan knows that I know the truth now. only recently has he fled. satan used demonic intimidation and harrassment for months. I mean, I saw demons with the most evil grin I have ever seen.
I give all my thanks and praise to God. Calling upon Jesus' name is powerful. I give ALL the glory to Jesus Christ because it's truly amazing how good he is and how he is so powerful to keep such evil away and protect his children. God is definately in control.
During the harassment, I heard a demon speak 'audibly' to me. It was trying to tell me that it was my friend. In fact, the exact wording was "I am your friend". I knew it was a demon. It's hard to descibe how I knew, but I just knew for sure it was not God or any 'heavenly' being. But God has spoken to me a few times, and I recognize his voice immediately. It's a gentle voice. A loving voice. It's mostly like a 'gentle thought' that I clearly KNOW is not from me. I am one of the sheep that hear his voice, quite literally. Obviously, everyone's experience is different. But I hear his voice and I know it's him. He spoken to me on a few occassions. That's how I know that I am one of God's children.
I agree CC is in need of our prayer, we should keep him and others like him in our prayers constantly, believing in faith that God will open their eyes before it is too late.
Scriptures that show that no sinner shall inherit God's Kingdom
Romans 1:29-32
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murders, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So it is not only those that live in sin that are worthy of death, but those that accept it and or take pleasure in those that live in sin.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornication, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Pretty clear, there is no if, and, or buts, those that live in sin will not make it to heaven.
Colossians 3:24-25
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
We that serve the Lord shall receive our inheritance, but those that commit sin shall also receive what they deserve. God will not turn a blind eye to your sin, while judging others for theirs, for there is no respect with God. He treats us all equally.
Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be you therefore followers of God as dear children,
2 And walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saint;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
The scripture is clear, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God nor of Christ. It also emphatically states that you should not allow yourself to be deceived by vain talkers, such as those that promote the OSAS doctrine. If you partake in the sins of the world you will also partake in the wrath of God with them.
Revelation 21:7-8
7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This passage states that the overcomers shall inherit all things but that all sinners will burn in the lake of fire. So if you claim yourself to be a ''sinner'' saved by grace then you will burn with the sinners. If you think you can continue in sin without consequence you are mistaken.
All sinners will be judged. Whether they say they are saved, believe themselves to be saved. Whether they believe in Jesus or have been baptized or not. No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.
Scriptures that show that no sinner shall inherit God's Kingdom
Romans 1:29-32
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murders, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So it is not only those that live in sin that are worthy of death, but those that accept it and or take pleasure in those that live in sin.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornication, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Pretty clear, there is no if, and, or buts, those that live in sin will not make it to heaven.
Colossians 3:24-25
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
We that serve the Lord shall receive our inheritance, but those that commit sin shall also receive what they deserve. God will not turn a blind eye to your sin, while judging others for theirs, for there is no respect with God. He treats us all equally.
Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be you therefore followers of God as dear children,
2 And walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saint;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
The scripture is clear, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God nor of Christ. It also emphatically states that you should not allow yourself to be deceived by vain talkers, such as those that promote the OSAS doctrine. If you partake in the sins of the world you will also partake in the wrath of God with them.
Revelation 21:7-8
7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This passage states that the overcomers shall inherit all things but that all sinners will burn in the lake of fire. So if you claim yourself to be a ''sinner'' saved by grace then you will burn with the sinners. If you think you can continue in sin without consequence you are mistaken.
All sinners will be judged. Whether they say they are saved, believe themselves to be saved. Whether they believe in Jesus or have been baptized or not. No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.
K
I agree completely Watchmen.
Here are a few Scriptures that I feel completely prove the falsehood of Carnal Christianity:
"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." - Matthew 6: 23 & 24 (KJV)
"And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. " - Luke 16: 12 & 13 (KJV)
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." - James 1: 8 (KJV)
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God,
and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness."
- James 4:7-9 (KJV)
Here are a few Scriptures that I feel completely prove the falsehood of Carnal Christianity:
"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." - Matthew 6: 23 & 24 (KJV)
"And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. " - Luke 16: 12 & 13 (KJV)
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." - James 1: 8 (KJV)
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God,
and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness."
- James 4:7-9 (KJV)
Some self-professed christians teach that all you have to do to achieve salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, and your salvation is assured in this life. You only have to make a once in a lifetime commitment and no matter what you do for the rest of your life, you can be certain that you will go to Heaven when you die. Once you do this, it is an impossibility that you will ever lose your salvation. That train of thought, however, is not Biblical, and in reality it is a sin of presumption. Jesus did not die just so we could sin.
Let us examine Holy Scripture and see what it has to say.
"For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in your heart that GOD has raised Him from the dead, You shall be saved." Romans 10:9
"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13
This is what St. Paul said. Some non-Apostlic "christians" use these two verses, taken completely out of context, to try to provide justification for their false, man made, "Once saved, always saved" belief.
A text without a context is only a pretext.
If they would only read further on in the same chapter they would clearly see the context of Romans 10:9 and 13, and the fallacy of this false belief:
Romans 10:14 "But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?"
In this verse we see that in order to properly hear the word of GOD so that they may believe, there is a condition attached.
They cannot "believe in Him" unless they have heard it, and have heard it from a preacher.
Does that verse mean any preacher, even a false one (2Cor 11:12-15)?
No, definitely not, for Holy Scripture teaches that it could not be just any preacher, but only a preacher who is sent by GOD.
The very next verse will teach us this.
Romans 10:15, "And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written (Isaiah 52:7, Nahum 1:15*), "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"" (Please note that "good news" is the meaning of the word "Gospel".)
"And how can men preach unless they are sent?" Sent?
If anyone has been sent, then it stands to reason that "someone" had to do the sending. Isn't that true?
By simple deduction, and by common sense, the question must be asked that they who were sent then, were sent by whom?
In this verse we can see and hear the death knell of the "Once saved, always saved" false belief.
The word for "sent", as used in the Greek language of which the book of Romans was written, is apostello.
Doesn't that sound like another Biblical word for which we are all familiar?
Apostello means to send out properly on a mission. From apostello we get the Greek word "apostolos", meaning "Apostle".
The Greek word "Apostolos" means "he who is sent".
So who are the "they" who are those sent, and by whom are "they" sent?
The same Greek word, apostello, is used by Jesus Christ when He spoke to His "Apostolos" in John 20:21:
"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.""
It is obvious that those who are sent (apostello) by GOD are also given authority by Jesus Christ who is GOD.
That authority was delegated to the Apostles alone by Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:15 had said, "And how can men preach unless they are sent?". I must ask, "Sent by whom and with what authority?"
"And He appointed twelve, to be with Him, and to be sent out to preach..." Mark 3:14
So, those who are sent, are sent with the authority given to them by GOD. Consequently, the only persons authorized to preach are the Apostles, and those who followed them in a long line of succession, the office of the Bishops (Psalms 109:8, Acts 1:20).
This was said by Saint Paul:
"So, if I brag a little too much about the authority which the Lord gave us, I'm not ashamed. The Lord gave us this authority to help you, not to hurt you." 2Corinthians 10:8
In addition there were a few others mentioned in Scripture who were appointed directly by the Lord such as the seventy who were sent in Luke 10:1.
There is another Greek word for sent, and it is pempo.
Pempo is used in verses where sent means not sent with the authority of GOD, such as in Matthew 14:10.
Non-Apostolic "christian" preachers and ministers will have a hard time proving that they were sent by the authority of GOD since they are not in the line of succession going all the way back to the Apostles. So by what authority do these men preach?
"Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God. Therefore he who resists the authority, withstands the ordinance of God; and those who withstand will receive to themselves judgment."
Romans 13:1-2
None of those non-Apostolic "christian" preachers and ministers can claim that they have GOD given pastoral authority, since it would be at most only a private revelation if that, and not a public one, so how could anyone "prove" that their claim to "GOD gave me the authority" is to be believed? Anyone can utter the excuse that "GOD told me!". History is repleat with heretics, criminals, dictators, and despots who used that term as their supposed justification for their evil deeds.
In Luke 10:16, Jesus said, "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." That verse is a verse of authority and it is a verse of infallibility as well. It is a verse also of obedience for those who were sent. Now there are well over 36,000 protestant sects, each with at least one preacher and all of them are preaching something different from one another. So, given the fact that there can be only one truth and with obedience to only one authority, which one of those tens of thousands is the model of obedience and has the authority and infallibility given to him or her by Jesus Christ?
Which one of the tens of thousands of them could lay claim to Luke 10:16?
"...and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." What else could this part of Luke 10:16 mean other than to be applied to those who reject the teaching of His "Apostolos" and their successors through the one Church which He founded?
So by taking Romans 10:9-15 in context, verse 15 clearly negates any thought of "Once saved, always saved" as being a foregone conclusion.
But that is not all, as there is more which negates the false belief of, "Once saved, always saved" in Romans 10:
Romans 10:16, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?""
How can anyone obey the Gospel when they are preached to by someone who is not sent? And just who are "us"?
"Us" are those who are sent with the authority of GOD.
Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ."
So from where does "the preaching of Christ" in absolute truth come? Again, it is from those who are sent with the authority to do so given to them by GOD. Authority from GOD is the only guarantee for those sent, of preaching only one truth, and with only one authority. It is the lack of the authority from GOD that has created the tens of thousands of non-Apostolic "christian" sects that we see today, with all of them preaching their own individual interpretation of Scripture. Theirs is nothing more than personal opinionated preaching. Truth stands alone. It comes from Jesus Christ, who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" in John 14:6. Truth is not dependant upon private opinions. Jesus Christ said that he cares not for the opinions of men, Mark 12:14.
Therefore the opinions of mankind have no bearing whatsoever on doctrinal truth.
Romans 10:18, "But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Whose voice "has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world"?
Again, it is those who are sent, the Apostles and their successors whose words have gone out to all the earth and to the ends of the world as commanded by Jesus Christ Himself to the Apostles in:
Matthew 28:18-20, "And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
And in:
Acts 1:8, "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."
--------------------------------------------------
From what has been presented here for Romans 10, it is to be a lesson learned
that no one should ever take a verse or two out of context in order to promote a false belief.
It is impossible for anyone to write a text of which any person could take a line or two out of context and twist it to mean something entirely different from what the author had intended. By taking verses out of context, a true statement could easily be transformed into something other than the truth.
*Nahum 1:15, "Behold, on the mountains the feet of him who brings good tidings (good news, Gospel), who proclaims peace!"
The mountain is the dwelling place of GOD as shown in many verses.
See Ex 3:1, Psa 48:2-3, Isa 2:2-3,30:29,65:25,66:20, Jer 31:23, Ez 11:23,20:40,
Dan 9:16,20, Joel 2:1,3:17, Mic 4:1-2, Hag 1:8, Zech 8:3.
The mountain also prefigures the Church, which is the dwelling place of GOD.
Matt 5:14, the city which is set upon a mountain and cannot be hidden is a prefigurement of the highly visible Church which Jesus Christ founded.
Elucidation:
From the mountain of GOD, he who brings the Gospel, is the preacher whom GOD has sent.
Jesus taught from a mountain: Matt 5:1
From a mountain, Jesus in turn commanded His disciples to teach all nations: Matt 28:16-20
On a mountain, Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes, which fed 5000: Jn 6:3-14
Jesus was transfigured on a mountain: Matt 17:1-5, Mk 9:2, Lk 9:28-29
Mountain heights symbolize the heights of authority.
Let us examine Holy Scripture and see what it has to say.
"For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in your heart that GOD has raised Him from the dead, You shall be saved." Romans 10:9
"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13
This is what St. Paul said. Some non-Apostlic "christians" use these two verses, taken completely out of context, to try to provide justification for their false, man made, "Once saved, always saved" belief.
A text without a context is only a pretext.
If they would only read further on in the same chapter they would clearly see the context of Romans 10:9 and 13, and the fallacy of this false belief:
Romans 10:14 "But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?"
In this verse we see that in order to properly hear the word of GOD so that they may believe, there is a condition attached.
They cannot "believe in Him" unless they have heard it, and have heard it from a preacher.
Does that verse mean any preacher, even a false one (2Cor 11:12-15)?
No, definitely not, for Holy Scripture teaches that it could not be just any preacher, but only a preacher who is sent by GOD.
The very next verse will teach us this.
Romans 10:15, "And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written (Isaiah 52:7, Nahum 1:15*), "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"" (Please note that "good news" is the meaning of the word "Gospel".)
"And how can men preach unless they are sent?" Sent?
If anyone has been sent, then it stands to reason that "someone" had to do the sending. Isn't that true?
By simple deduction, and by common sense, the question must be asked that they who were sent then, were sent by whom?
In this verse we can see and hear the death knell of the "Once saved, always saved" false belief.
The word for "sent", as used in the Greek language of which the book of Romans was written, is apostello.
Doesn't that sound like another Biblical word for which we are all familiar?
Apostello means to send out properly on a mission. From apostello we get the Greek word "apostolos", meaning "Apostle".
The Greek word "Apostolos" means "he who is sent".
So who are the "they" who are those sent, and by whom are "they" sent?
The same Greek word, apostello, is used by Jesus Christ when He spoke to His "Apostolos" in John 20:21:
"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.""
It is obvious that those who are sent (apostello) by GOD are also given authority by Jesus Christ who is GOD.
That authority was delegated to the Apostles alone by Jesus Christ.
Romans 10:15 had said, "And how can men preach unless they are sent?". I must ask, "Sent by whom and with what authority?"
"And He appointed twelve, to be with Him, and to be sent out to preach..." Mark 3:14
So, those who are sent, are sent with the authority given to them by GOD. Consequently, the only persons authorized to preach are the Apostles, and those who followed them in a long line of succession, the office of the Bishops (Psalms 109:8, Acts 1:20).
This was said by Saint Paul:
"So, if I brag a little too much about the authority which the Lord gave us, I'm not ashamed. The Lord gave us this authority to help you, not to hurt you." 2Corinthians 10:8
In addition there were a few others mentioned in Scripture who were appointed directly by the Lord such as the seventy who were sent in Luke 10:1.
There is another Greek word for sent, and it is pempo.
Pempo is used in verses where sent means not sent with the authority of GOD, such as in Matthew 14:10.
Non-Apostolic "christian" preachers and ministers will have a hard time proving that they were sent by the authority of GOD since they are not in the line of succession going all the way back to the Apostles. So by what authority do these men preach?
"Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God. Therefore he who resists the authority, withstands the ordinance of God; and those who withstand will receive to themselves judgment."
Romans 13:1-2
None of those non-Apostolic "christian" preachers and ministers can claim that they have GOD given pastoral authority, since it would be at most only a private revelation if that, and not a public one, so how could anyone "prove" that their claim to "GOD gave me the authority" is to be believed? Anyone can utter the excuse that "GOD told me!". History is repleat with heretics, criminals, dictators, and despots who used that term as their supposed justification for their evil deeds.
In Luke 10:16, Jesus said, "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." That verse is a verse of authority and it is a verse of infallibility as well. It is a verse also of obedience for those who were sent. Now there are well over 36,000 protestant sects, each with at least one preacher and all of them are preaching something different from one another. So, given the fact that there can be only one truth and with obedience to only one authority, which one of those tens of thousands is the model of obedience and has the authority and infallibility given to him or her by Jesus Christ?
Which one of the tens of thousands of them could lay claim to Luke 10:16?
"...and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." What else could this part of Luke 10:16 mean other than to be applied to those who reject the teaching of His "Apostolos" and their successors through the one Church which He founded?
So by taking Romans 10:9-15 in context, verse 15 clearly negates any thought of "Once saved, always saved" as being a foregone conclusion.
But that is not all, as there is more which negates the false belief of, "Once saved, always saved" in Romans 10:
Romans 10:16, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?""
How can anyone obey the Gospel when they are preached to by someone who is not sent? And just who are "us"?
"Us" are those who are sent with the authority of GOD.
Romans 10:17, "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ."
So from where does "the preaching of Christ" in absolute truth come? Again, it is from those who are sent with the authority to do so given to them by GOD. Authority from GOD is the only guarantee for those sent, of preaching only one truth, and with only one authority. It is the lack of the authority from GOD that has created the tens of thousands of non-Apostolic "christian" sects that we see today, with all of them preaching their own individual interpretation of Scripture. Theirs is nothing more than personal opinionated preaching. Truth stands alone. It comes from Jesus Christ, who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life" in John 14:6. Truth is not dependant upon private opinions. Jesus Christ said that he cares not for the opinions of men, Mark 12:14.
Therefore the opinions of mankind have no bearing whatsoever on doctrinal truth.
Romans 10:18, "But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Whose voice "has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world"?
Again, it is those who are sent, the Apostles and their successors whose words have gone out to all the earth and to the ends of the world as commanded by Jesus Christ Himself to the Apostles in:
Matthew 28:18-20, "And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
And in:
Acts 1:8, "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."
--------------------------------------------------
From what has been presented here for Romans 10, it is to be a lesson learned
that no one should ever take a verse or two out of context in order to promote a false belief.
It is impossible for anyone to write a text of which any person could take a line or two out of context and twist it to mean something entirely different from what the author had intended. By taking verses out of context, a true statement could easily be transformed into something other than the truth.
*Nahum 1:15, "Behold, on the mountains the feet of him who brings good tidings (good news, Gospel), who proclaims peace!"
The mountain is the dwelling place of GOD as shown in many verses.
See Ex 3:1, Psa 48:2-3, Isa 2:2-3,30:29,65:25,66:20, Jer 31:23, Ez 11:23,20:40,
Dan 9:16,20, Joel 2:1,3:17, Mic 4:1-2, Hag 1:8, Zech 8:3.
The mountain also prefigures the Church, which is the dwelling place of GOD.
Matt 5:14, the city which is set upon a mountain and cannot be hidden is a prefigurement of the highly visible Church which Jesus Christ founded.
Elucidation:
From the mountain of GOD, he who brings the Gospel, is the preacher whom GOD has sent.
Jesus taught from a mountain: Matt 5:1
From a mountain, Jesus in turn commanded His disciples to teach all nations: Matt 28:16-20
On a mountain, Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes, which fed 5000: Jn 6:3-14
Jesus was transfigured on a mountain: Matt 17:1-5, Mk 9:2, Lk 9:28-29
Mountain heights symbolize the heights of authority.
I'm in the ironic position of having been heavily influenced in a very positive way by Paul Washer's videos but not being fully convinced that his claim that "salvation is by faith and faith alone" is true, when there are so many references to salvation by God's grace in the Bible.
Washer's videos were a much needed slap in the face for me, and after seeing them I made alot of changes in my life. I believe God used him to make me see how sinful a life I was living, despite calling myself a Christian. Would God use a heretic to bring a believer closer to Him?
In saying that, I still don't see how Jesus' death could be insufficient to cover our sins. What if someone truly believes in Him and has repented from sin, but lives in sinfulness while in constant prayer to God, begging that He lead them away from temptation and sin? This person hasn't shown any fruit yet. I was in this situation for several years. I was a believer but could not break my cycle of sin. Was I not praying hard enough for God to change my life?
As someone who only recently realsed that the grace vs. faith issue existed, this is a very difficult issue for me, and I still don't have an opinion. I've been a Christian all my life, living under the assruance of believing I am saved, but I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I died while living in grievous sin, without fruit. What would I have said to God during my judgement?
I've been back and forward on the issue so many times but I still don't know what the answer is. Both viewpoints seem to make sense, when considered independently.
Washer's videos were a much needed slap in the face for me, and after seeing them I made alot of changes in my life. I believe God used him to make me see how sinful a life I was living, despite calling myself a Christian. Would God use a heretic to bring a believer closer to Him?
In saying that, I still don't see how Jesus' death could be insufficient to cover our sins. What if someone truly believes in Him and has repented from sin, but lives in sinfulness while in constant prayer to God, begging that He lead them away from temptation and sin? This person hasn't shown any fruit yet. I was in this situation for several years. I was a believer but could not break my cycle of sin. Was I not praying hard enough for God to change my life?
As someone who only recently realsed that the grace vs. faith issue existed, this is a very difficult issue for me, and I still don't have an opinion. I've been a Christian all my life, living under the assruance of believing I am saved, but I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I died while living in grievous sin, without fruit. What would I have said to God during my judgement?
I've been back and forward on the issue so many times but I still don't know what the answer is. Both viewpoints seem to make sense, when considered independently.
C
full of pride? lol.
Your the self-rightous one who thinks he can add works to God's grace.
Keep watching your paul washer videos and believing that you have to stop sinning before you can be saved.
lol...pride. When will you realize that savation is ALL GOD'S DOING. We just have to trust in him with faith. When you believe that YOU need to stop sinning BEFORE you are saved, that's adding works to it.
And IF you are saved.......and I do stress the word IF, then God will start cleaning up the sin in our lives by convicting us with the Holy Spirit which a believer recieves IMMEDIATELY upon salvation.
My advice to you and watchmen and others who don't seem to have a clue about the simplicity of God's grace would be to drop your self-rightousness and trust in Jesus Alone. Once a true believer receives the Holy Spirit, it will convict them every time they sin.
But you kingdomgeneration are stil a sinner! Watchmen is still a sinner! I am still a sinner! We are litterally born into sinful flesh. A believer will never stop sinning while they are in the flesh.
If you don't think that a believer will NEVER stop sinning while in the flesh...that's YOUR pride!
God Bless you abundantly
It seems that many non-Apostolic christians misunderstand the Christian doctrine of salvation. They think that the Church teaches salvation by works as if Christians were trying to earn their way to heaven. This frustrates knowledgeable Christians because we know that the Church does not teach salvation by our own good works.
Objector: Perhaps the reason is that we hear this view from so many Christians. When we ask them how they hope to go to heaven, they tell us that if they are good, they hope they will be in heaven with God for eternity. But I do know better. I know the Church teaches salvation by grace coming from God through faith in Christ.
Apostolic Christian: I agree with salvation coming from grace through faith
OBJECTOR: Nevertheless, I still think that the Church compromises the true gospel of Jesus Christ by its belief that salvation is a process rather than a one-time act of God. In essence, the Apostolic Christian doctrine is semi-Pelagian. It believes that salvation is a cooperation between God and man in which man plays at least as important a role as God does.
Christian: We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God. God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things. And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability. Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever. In contrast, Semi-Pelagianism is only a weakened form of Pelagianism, which taught that a person could save himself. To be a semi-Pelagian is to believe that we could save ourselves but God just helps us to make it easier.
OBJECTOR: But that seems to me to be exactly what the Apostolic Church teaches when it says that we must work with God to achieve our salvation. It takes glory away from God the Savior.
Christian: No, the Church teaches that only God can save us. If that weren’t true, then Christ died for nothing. All that we do is respond with faith and obedience to God’s offer of grace in Christ. We insist that this is a lifelong commitment that should grow over time. God’s grace grows within us as we trust in God more and follow his commandments. The final outcome of a life of faith and obedience is eternal life with God.
OBJECTOR: What you describe sounds like a compromise. How can salvation be a process when Acts 16:31 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"? Paul affirms this same decisive act of salvation in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Christian: The Church affirms the teaching of these texts. They are calling us to decisive trust in Christ. We affirm that trust in Christ is essential to salvation. But are faith in and confession of Christ a one-time event, or are faith and verbal confession necessary for one’s entire life? We believe the Bible teaches that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure, as it were. One must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.
OBJECTOR: Anyone who takes the Bible seriously must affirm that obedience and works flow from true faith. What is objectionable is that your Christian faith confuses faith and works by making both of them necessary for salvation.
Christian: Wouldn’t you say that works are necessary? Doesn’t James 2:17 teach that faith without works is dead?
OBJECTOR: Of course works are necessary as evidence that the faith of the person believing is real and genuine, but that is different from believing, as your faith teaches, that works play an essential role in our final salvation. The root of the problem with Christian teaching is that it confuses justification and sanctification by seeing salvation as a process that lasts one’s lifetime.
Christian: We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.
OBJECTOR: That cannot be right, because justification is an act of God’s grace. This means that God justifies us when we believe in Christ. He declares us righteous for Christ’s sake, not because of our own merits. James is saying that Abraham’s offering of Isaac was a work that justified his faith. Sanctification or the pursuit of holiness is essential to prove our faith but it is not what saves us. Christ saves us!
Christian: But sanctification is Christ actively saving us! You say that Abraham’s work of offering up Isaac justified his faith as being real. But James 2:21 asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" From this James concludes in verse 22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works." This language of "active along with" and works "completing" faith is the language of cooperation.
OBJECTOR: I agree that we must cooperate with God in our sanctification because it is a process that lasts a lifetime. But sanctification is not what really saves us. What saves us is the merits of Christ being credited to our account. This "credit exchange" takes place in justification, an act of God’s grace that occurs when we believe in Christ and trust him completely.
Christian: We agree that justification begins the Christian life. Baptism is a sacrament of justification because in it all our previous sins are forgiven. And as I implied above, acts of justification or forgiveness may occur at many points in our lives. For example, when a priest declares a sinner forgiven in confession, this is an act of justification. We insist that many justifications take place in our lives as we journey toward heaven. These acts of justification are necessary for our growth in holiness or sanctification.
OBJECTOR: Well, as I said, your Church muddies the waters of salvation by its conflation and confusion of justification and sanctification. This makes our salvation depend on our degree of personal holiness. But because our growth in holiness cannot ever be complete in this life, we can never know whether we will be saved or not. That shows that the Christian view cannot be true, because the New Testament is full of assurance of salvation. One of the more well-known verses is 1 John 5:13.
Christian: We think that many "saved now" christians seriously misread the New Testament when it comes to the assurance of salvation. Though we can’t examine many texts on assurance right now, I can say that 1 John 5:13 has been ripped out of its context in John’s letter. If you examine chapters 4 and 5 of this small letter carefully, you will see that "this" refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.
OBJECTOR: Maybe you have a point on 1 John, but making our salvation dependent on a certain degree of personal holiness is wrong, because it transfers our trust from Christ to ourselves.
Christian: I don’t see that the pursuit of holiness in any way takes our trust away from Christ and puts it in ourselves. It seems to me that Hebrews makes it very clear that without holiness "no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Why would the author say this? Because God is holy and, if we’re going to live with God forever, we too must be holy. So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained for us by his death on the cross. God desires to put this holiness within us, or as Hebrews 12:10 says, "that we may share his holiness." That is the ultimate rationale behind the Apostolic view of salvation: to share in the holiness of God. Nothing less will save us!
Objector: Perhaps the reason is that we hear this view from so many Christians. When we ask them how they hope to go to heaven, they tell us that if they are good, they hope they will be in heaven with God for eternity. But I do know better. I know the Church teaches salvation by grace coming from God through faith in Christ.
Apostolic Christian: I agree with salvation coming from grace through faith
OBJECTOR: Nevertheless, I still think that the Church compromises the true gospel of Jesus Christ by its belief that salvation is a process rather than a one-time act of God. In essence, the Apostolic Christian doctrine is semi-Pelagian. It believes that salvation is a cooperation between God and man in which man plays at least as important a role as God does.
Christian: We believe that salvation is a process by which we come closer to God throughout our whole life as we participate in the sacraments and the grace that comes through them. But it is not true that man plays as important a role as God. God the Father planned our salvation, not man. God the Son gained our salvation by his death and resurrection; no one else did these things. And God the Holy Spirit infused the very love of God into our hearts by his presence (cf. Rom. 5:5). This is beyond our human ability. Still, we must cooperate with God’s grace to find eternal happiness with God. If we don’t, we will be cut off from God forever. In contrast, Semi-Pelagianism is only a weakened form of Pelagianism, which taught that a person could save himself. To be a semi-Pelagian is to believe that we could save ourselves but God just helps us to make it easier.
OBJECTOR: But that seems to me to be exactly what the Apostolic Church teaches when it says that we must work with God to achieve our salvation. It takes glory away from God the Savior.
Christian: No, the Church teaches that only God can save us. If that weren’t true, then Christ died for nothing. All that we do is respond with faith and obedience to God’s offer of grace in Christ. We insist that this is a lifelong commitment that should grow over time. God’s grace grows within us as we trust in God more and follow his commandments. The final outcome of a life of faith and obedience is eternal life with God.
OBJECTOR: What you describe sounds like a compromise. How can salvation be a process when Acts 16:31 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"? Paul affirms this same decisive act of salvation in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Christian: The Church affirms the teaching of these texts. They are calling us to decisive trust in Christ. We affirm that trust in Christ is essential to salvation. But are faith in and confession of Christ a one-time event, or are faith and verbal confession necessary for one’s entire life? We believe the Bible teaches that one cannot just profess faith once and then be eternally secure, as it were. One must live out this faith by a life of obedience and good works.
OBJECTOR: Anyone who takes the Bible seriously must affirm that obedience and works flow from true faith. What is objectionable is that your Christian faith confuses faith and works by making both of them necessary for salvation.
Christian: Wouldn’t you say that works are necessary? Doesn’t James 2:17 teach that faith without works is dead?
OBJECTOR: Of course works are necessary as evidence that the faith of the person believing is real and genuine, but that is different from believing, as your faith teaches, that works play an essential role in our final salvation. The root of the problem with Christian teaching is that it confuses justification and sanctification by seeing salvation as a process that lasts one’s lifetime.
Christian: We do believe that works are evidence of true faith, but that is not the only role they play. Works also play a role in our final justification. If we take Paul’s statements about Abraham being justified by faith in Galatians 3:6 and Romans 4:3–4 and put them together with James’s statement about Abraham being justified by his work of offering up Isaac in James 2:21, we rightly conclude that salvation is a process with many points of justification along the path to heaven.
OBJECTOR: That cannot be right, because justification is an act of God’s grace. This means that God justifies us when we believe in Christ. He declares us righteous for Christ’s sake, not because of our own merits. James is saying that Abraham’s offering of Isaac was a work that justified his faith. Sanctification or the pursuit of holiness is essential to prove our faith but it is not what saves us. Christ saves us!
Christian: But sanctification is Christ actively saving us! You say that Abraham’s work of offering up Isaac justified his faith as being real. But James 2:21 asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" From this James concludes in verse 22: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works." This language of "active along with" and works "completing" faith is the language of cooperation.
OBJECTOR: I agree that we must cooperate with God in our sanctification because it is a process that lasts a lifetime. But sanctification is not what really saves us. What saves us is the merits of Christ being credited to our account. This "credit exchange" takes place in justification, an act of God’s grace that occurs when we believe in Christ and trust him completely.
Christian: We agree that justification begins the Christian life. Baptism is a sacrament of justification because in it all our previous sins are forgiven. And as I implied above, acts of justification or forgiveness may occur at many points in our lives. For example, when a priest declares a sinner forgiven in confession, this is an act of justification. We insist that many justifications take place in our lives as we journey toward heaven. These acts of justification are necessary for our growth in holiness or sanctification.
OBJECTOR: Well, as I said, your Church muddies the waters of salvation by its conflation and confusion of justification and sanctification. This makes our salvation depend on our degree of personal holiness. But because our growth in holiness cannot ever be complete in this life, we can never know whether we will be saved or not. That shows that the Christian view cannot be true, because the New Testament is full of assurance of salvation. One of the more well-known verses is 1 John 5:13.
Christian: We think that many "saved now" christians seriously misread the New Testament when it comes to the assurance of salvation. Though we can’t examine many texts on assurance right now, I can say that 1 John 5:13 has been ripped out of its context in John’s letter. If you examine chapters 4 and 5 of this small letter carefully, you will see that "this" refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.
OBJECTOR: Maybe you have a point on 1 John, but making our salvation dependent on a certain degree of personal holiness is wrong, because it transfers our trust from Christ to ourselves.
Christian: I don’t see that the pursuit of holiness in any way takes our trust away from Christ and puts it in ourselves. It seems to me that Hebrews makes it very clear that without holiness "no one will see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14). Why would the author say this? Because God is holy and, if we’re going to live with God forever, we too must be holy. So our entire life should be a pursuit of the holiness that Christ gained for us by his death on the cross. God desires to put this holiness within us, or as Hebrews 12:10 says, "that we may share his holiness." That is the ultimate rationale behind the Apostolic view of salvation: to share in the holiness of God. Nothing less will save us!
K
You obviously have not read a my testimony about being delivered from lust by the grace of God have you? One would think that since you openly admitted to struggling with lust also that you would find hope in that story that you too could be set free. But instead you have chosen to live not only to continue to live in bondage but also cling to religious doctrine that God obvious does not bear witness to.
My heart really goes out to you man...
My heart really goes out to you man...
K
It's obvious to me that those who believe in OSAS clearly lack spiritual discernment. How clear can a person be. Living a life of obedience has absolutely nothing do with with believing that works can save you. It has everything to with loving and trusting in God who declares His word is true. Ironically enough the same people who believe that one can not forfiet his or her salvation also do not believe in the baptism or the gifts of the Holy Spirit (the majority of them anyways). Considering discernment is a gift of the Holy Spirit, a concept that they do not believe in, then it's safe to say that a person can not operate in in something in which they do not believe.
To be honest with you, I'm beginning to wonder if we are actually reading the same Bible and worshiping the same God.
To be honest with you, I'm beginning to wonder if we are actually reading the same Bible and worshiping the same God.
It has everything to do with performing good works out of grace. The criticism is against "works of the law" not good works. I suggest that if you read the bible, you try to understand what you are reading. Otherwise, the bible does you no good.
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Christian theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).
James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham's justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.
Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 6:23 – this is why Paul says the "wages" of sin is death. Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay us for our works; otherwise, we are in a system of law, not a system of grace.
Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of "works," lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the "works" of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.
This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.
Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul's teaching on "works" referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for "good works" - a clear distinction between "works of law" (Mosaic law/legal payment) and "good works" (law of Christ/reward of grace). Eph. 2:11-16 - this section further explains Paul's reference to "works" which relates to following the Jewish legal ordinances.
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Christian theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).
James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham's justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.
Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 - many Protestants err in their understanding of what Paul means by "works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul's mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the "works of the law." Here is the proof:
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
Rom. 6:23 – this is why Paul says the "wages" of sin is death. Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay us for our works; otherwise, we are in a system of law, not a system of grace.
Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of "works," lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the "works" of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.
This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.
Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul's teaching on "works" referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for "good works" - a clear distinction between "works of law" (Mosaic law/legal payment) and "good works" (law of Christ/reward of grace). Eph. 2:11-16 - this section further explains Paul's reference to "works" which relates to following the Jewish legal ordinances.
It does, actually, as Scripture shows.
First of all we have the analogy between simply looking upon the brass serpent and living:
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole. And it happened that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked upon the serpent of brass, he lived.
And simply "looking" or believing in Christ, and being saved:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
We also have Abraham as our example, who was not justified after works, but was justified when he believed God's promise, before he had done any works...
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Like Abraham, who heard God's promise (Gen 15:1-6), and believed, it is the hearing of faith by which we are justified, not by the works of faith, which show the faith.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Justification is therefore at the moment of belief, not at the moment of works to show (or establish) that belief.
Faith that justifies does produce works. However the point of salvation is the moment one believes God's promises not the moment a person does a good work.
First of all we have the analogy between simply looking upon the brass serpent and living:
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole. And it happened that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked upon the serpent of brass, he lived.
And simply "looking" or believing in Christ, and being saved:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
We also have Abraham as our example, who was not justified after works, but was justified when he believed God's promise, before he had done any works...
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Like Abraham, who heard God's promise (Gen 15:1-6), and believed, it is the hearing of faith by which we are justified, not by the works of faith, which show the faith.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Justification is therefore at the moment of belief, not at the moment of works to show (or establish) that belief.
Faith that justifies does produce works. However the point of salvation is the moment one believes God's promises not the moment a person does a good work.
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