What Pentecostal denomination does NOT believe in the initial evidence doctrine?

[Waggles]

Have you a scripture for that please?

The book of Acts for starters and Mark 16:17 (Jesus)

In the Revival Fellowship ALL of the congregation speaks, or rather prays, in tongues.
Every person who have sought to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit can testify to speaking out in a new tongue and also to the
sure knowledge that they have received the Holy Spirit.
From youngsters to teens to young adults to older people - ALL have the same evidence and the same experience.

History also verifies this with Holy Spirit revivals from the 1890s to WWII being known with multitudes speaking out in tongues and
enjoying the ensuing miracles and healings that followed.
The AOG and your Four Square Pentecostal churches would have openly preached that speaking in tongues is the initial Bible
evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately over the decades, and particularly after the great interruption of WWII, with the death of Pentecostal greats such as
John G. Lake and Smith Wigglesworth, the signs that Jesus said would follow became watered down doctrines.
And now many modern churches that came out of those wonderful days of speaking in tongues, miracles, healings and the demonstrable power of God in believers' lives have transcribed signs to now be gifts in the church where not all speak in tongues,
and not all are prophets, and not all have the gift of …

 

[PS]

The book of Acts for starters and Mark 16:17 (Jesus)

In the Revival Fellowship ALL of the congregation speaks, or rather prays, in tongues.
Every person who have sought to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit can testify to speaking out in a new tongue and also to the
sure knowledge that they have received the Holy Spirit.
From youngsters to teens to young adults to older people - ALL have the same evidence and the same experience.

History also verifies this with Holy Spirit revivals from the 1890s to WWII being known with multitudes speaking out in tongues and
enjoying the ensuing miracles and healings that followed.
The AOG and your Four Square Pentecostal churches would have openly preached that speaking in tongues is the initial Bible
evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately over the decades, and particularly after the great interruption of WWII, with the death of Pentecostal greats such as
John G. Lake and Smith Wigglesworth, the signs that Jesus said would follow became watered down doctrines.
And now many modern churches that came out of those wonderful days of speaking in tongues, miracles, healings and the demonstrable power of God in believers' lives have transcribed signs to now be gifts in the church where not all speak in tongues,
and not all are prophets, and not all have the gift of …

Just so you know where I am coming from, I was brought up in Elim Foursquare my father was a pastor and I can tell you categorically, this was never taught here in England.

For us, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are sought by believers and as you know there are various gifts. Some people never sought the gifts and some who do seek, do not always receive, but I would never say they are not saved.

To be honest, I do not know what to say, I can only think this was for the early church, but there we are, and you have personal experience, so being unsure of my ground I have to remain silent. All I can think is that I was once invited to an AGO church and some were barking like dogs, falling on the floor and gibbering away. I am very familiar with the gifts of the spirit but this was nothing like I have ever seen or heard. There was no order in the church at all. I don't know if you have heard of, I think it is called the "Ontario experience?" which is of the devil, and that is what I was seeing. It was completely out of order with no interpretation and there were far more than the three 'messages' that Paul speaks of, and they were happening all at the same time and Paul tells us to wait for the interpretation and if no interpretor is present, then we are to remain silent.

 

[Absolutely]

Just so you know where I am coming from, I was brought up in Elim Foursquare my father was a pastor and I can tell you categorically, this was never taught here in England.

For us, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are sought by believers and as you know there are various gifts. Some people never sought the gifts and some who do seek, do not always receive, but I would never say they are not saved.

To be honest, I do not know what to say, I can only think this was for the early church, but there we are, and you have personal experience, so being unsure of my ground I have to remain silent. All I can think is that I was once invited to an AGO church and some were barking like dogs, falling on the floor and gibbering away. I am very familiar with the gifts of the spirit but this was nothing like I have ever seen or heard. There was no order in the church at all. I don't know if you have heard of, I think it is called the "Ontario experience?" which is of the devil, and that is what I was seeing. It was completely out of order with no interpretation and there were far more than the three 'messages' that Paul speaks of, and they were happening all at the same time and Paul tells us to wait for the interpretation and if no interpretor is present, then we are to remain silent.

It is toranto.
You heard rumors.
There was plenty of order.
The Holy Spirit moved mightily and had a wonderful effect.
Demons,i am sure,screamed and screeched at Jesus's presence.
I bet some said about him "Jesus is of the devil,look at those followers scream,and screech!!"

In meetings,you don't know, or could possibly know ,what baggage people have brought in with them. When the Holy Spirit comes and shows up in power,demons manifest strange stuff.

Tell me,do you know of Dave Wilkerson??
If you think he is if the devil,you are confused.
I saw tons of people manifest strange mess in his church during the times square revival in the early nineties.

The fact people are carrying spirits does not mean Jesus,or the Holy Spirit is somehow fake or demonic.
You are spreading slander against toranto.
There are many,many hours of meetings with TOTAL ORDER and no wayward folks disrupting.
Then there are a choice few with those strange manifestations.

Ironically,the devils being rooted out PROVES AND AUTHENTICATES that the Holy Spirit is present,just like in Paul's and Jesus's ministries

 

[Absolutely]

And Btw,after HUNDREDS of hours directly and indirectly associated with Toranto,i personally NEVER SAW anyone barking. I only heard about it and nobody with any salt gave it any heed.

It like being at the world series and .01 percent of roudies and jerks frame the entire game?
Nope.

 

[Absolutely]

But what do you think of when someone says " toronto airport fellowship"?
Barking dogs of course.

The power of gossip.
Very powerful.

So powerful that when Jesus came to his hometown, he could do little to no miracles.

 

[PS]

It is toranto.
You heard rumors.
There was plenty of order.
The Holy Spirit moved mightily and had a wonderful effect.
Demons,i am sure,screamed and screeched at Jesus's presence.
I bet some said about him "Jesus is of the devil,look at those followers scream,and screech!!"

In meetings,you don't know, or could possibly know ,what baggage people have brought in with them. When the Holy Spirit comes and shows up in power,demons manifest strange stuff.

Tell me,do you know of Dave Wilkerson??
If you think he is if the devil,you are confused.
I saw tons of people manifest strange mess in his church during the times square revival in the early nineties.

The fact people are carrying spirits does not mean Jesus,or the Holy Spirit is somehow fake or demonic.
You are spreading slander against toranto.
There are many,many hours of meetings with TOTAL ORDER and no wayward folks disrupting.
Then there are a choice few with those strange manifestations.

Ironically,the devils being rooted out PROVES AND AUTHENTICATES that the Holy Spirit is present,just like in Paul's and Jesus's ministries

David Wilkerson, "The Cross and the Switchblade" Good man!

Then I do not know what to say.

 

[SpoonJuly]

You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding my point. You have never posted where there is any error in the creeds. Until the printing press Bibles were very expensive and rare. Only a rich man could afford one. A church with enough adherents might be able to afford one. Therefore the early elders used memorizing as a tool. They created the creeds to proclaim the beliefs required of a Christian. Before rejecting what has been found Biblical for approaching 2,000 years I suggest you define where it is in error considering many denominations use them in their service. I attended one church where the Apostles Creed was stated by the congregation. You keep ranting against what a very large segment of Christianity finds Biblical.

Question.
What would you use to tell a non Christian you are witnessing to what a Christian must believe. That is the purpose of the creeds!!

A large segment of Christianity teach heresy because they teach creeds (opinions) of men and not the Word of God.
When it comes to telling a non Christian what they must believe, I have several Bibles that I can use to SHOW them what the Word of God says.

May not be the smartest old man, but I am smart enough to read and understand the Bible.
Surely you are just as smart and can also read and understand the Bible and not have to rely on the opinions of others.

 

[RickyZ]

That is incortrect doctrine and poor teaching - unscriptural.
All who are baptized in the Holy Spirit shall speak in a new tongue. Jesus declared this to be so.

But how does that Jive with Paul saying not everyone will speak in tongues?

 

[CS1]

But how does that Jive with Paul saying not everyone will speak in tongues?

good question the initial empowering is where one will speak in tongues or prophesy as evidence they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. A person may never again speak in tongues or prophesy. Paul in 1cor 12 to 14 is not talking about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in 1cor 12 to 14 Paul is teaching on the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit." which the Holy Spirit uses as HE sees fit to do so. I am not saying I agree with this or not I am just explaining the difference and what are two things here
1. the Baptism in the Holy Spirit read in John chapter 1 and 2
2. the gifts of the Holy Spirit taught in cor 12 to 14

 

[CS1]

Just so you know where I am coming from, I was brought up in Elim Foursquare my father was a pastor and I can tell you categorically, this was never taught here in England.

For us, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are sought by believers and as you know there are various gifts. Some people never sought the gifts and some who do seek, do not always receive, but I would never say they are not saved.

To be honest, I do not know what to say, I can only think this was for the early church, but there we are, and you have personal experience, so being unsure of my ground I have to remain silent. All I can think is that I was once invited to an AGO church and some were barking like dogs, falling on the floor and gibbering away. I am very familiar with the gifts of the spirit but this was nothing like I have ever seen or heard. There was no order in the church at all. I don't know if you have heard of, I think it is called the "Ontario experience?" which is of the devil, and that is what I was seeing. It was completely out of order with no interpretation and there were far more than the three 'messages' that Paul speaks of, and they were happening all at the same time and Paul tells us to wait for the interpretation and if no interpretor is present, then we are to remain silent.

I think what you are saying is far, I do not agree with all of it but the abuses are not presenting the Power of the Holy Spirit reverently. The foolishness that is displayed on TV and other places is done to cause those who would be open to the power of the Holy Spirit not to receive. 1cor 14 says let all be done in order and disciplined we have not been given a Spirit without self-control. Yes, I speak in tongues and have the gift to interpret. The Lord has used me in the word of Knowledge and healing. there is an action by the person that can be harmful if not instructed in the Word and disciple. That is the Biggest issues I think. I could be wrong it is not important I am right but that people are not hurt by those who lack self-control. I am a Pentecostal and I make no apologies.

 

[Waggles]

For us, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are sought by believers and as you know there are various gifts. Some people never sought the gifts and some who do seek, do not always receive, but I would never say they are not saved.

Your experience of a charismatic congregation being totally out of order and chaotic is what I am referring to.
Oh how the righteous have fallen and degenerated into a circus performance to their shame.

BUT thank God not all have fallen and there are good well disciplined Pentecostal churches that still uphold the instructions
given by Paul on orderly worship -
Second, there is much confusion in modern Pentecostalism over tongues as the SIGN or evidence of receiving the indwelling
Holy Spirit as opposed to the GIFTS that are to be operated in a church meeting - speaking in an unknown tongue followed by
interpretation; and the gift of prophecy - all to be done decently and in order.
If your church is not operating the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit ye are truly missing out on much that God wants to say to
his church.

http://revivalfellowship.uk/

 

[PS]

Your experience of a charismatic congregation being totally out of order and chaotic is what I am referring to.
Oh how the righteous have fallen and degenerated into a circus performance to their shame.

BUT thank God not all have fallen and there are good well disciplined Pentecostal churches that still uphold the instructions
given by Paul on orderly worship -
Second, there is much confusion in modern Pentecostalism over tongues as the SIGN or evidence of receiving the indwelling
Holy Spirit as opposed to the GIFTS that are to be operated in a church meeting - speaking in an unknown tongue followed by
interpretation; and the gift of prophecy - all to be done decently and in order.
If your church is not operating the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit ye are truly missing out on much that God wants to say to
his church.

http://revivalfellowship.uk/

Fortunately it was a church I was visiting, in my own church everything is done in order according to New Testament teaching, it makes me wonder though if people who deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit know what they are talking about.

 

[Waggles]

Fortunately it was a church I was visiting, in my own church everything is done in order according to New Testament teaching, it makes me wonder though if people who deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit know what they are talking about.

NO they do not - but in the gladiatorial arena of the Bible Discussion Forum ignorance and unbelief never stopped the usual
gang of bullies from denouncing as heresy all that is not of their personal doctrine.

 

[RickyZ]

good question the initial empowering is where one will speak in tongues or prophesy as evidence they have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. A person may never again speak in tongues or prophesy. Paul in 1cor 12 to 14 is not talking about the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in 1cor 12 to 14 Paul is teaching on the " Gifts of the Holy Spirit." which the Holy Spirit uses as HE sees fit to do so. I am not saying I agree with this or not I am just explaining the difference and what are two things here
1. the Baptism in the Holy Spirit read in John chapter 1 and 2
2. the gifts of the Holy Spirit taught in cor 12 to 14

So in this scenario, the initial speaking in tongues at baptism of the HS is not an exercise of the gift of tongues? Can someone who never spoke in tongues work other gifts?

 

[CS1]

Your experience of a charismatic congregation being totally out of order and chaotic is what I am referring to.
Oh how the righteous have fallen and degenerated into a circus performance to their shame.

BUT thank God not all have fallen and there are good well disciplined Pentecostal churches that still uphold the instructions
given by Paul on orderly worship -
Second, there is much confusion in modern Pentecostalism over tongues as the SIGN or evidence of receiving the indwelling
Holy Spirit as opposed to the GIFTS that are to be operated in a church meeting - speaking in an unknown tongue followed by
interpretation; and the gift of prophecy - all to be done decently and in order.
If your church is not operating the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit ye are truly missing out on much that God wants to say to
his church.

http://revivalfellowship.uk/

I disagree with one point only one Pentecostals do not teach tongues as the Signor evidence of receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit but it is the initial evidence of being Baptized in the Holy Spirit for power as Jesus said. All who are saved have the indwelled HOly Spirit.

 

[CS1]

So in this scenario, the initial speaking in tongues at baptism of the HS is not an exercise of the gift of tongues? Can someone who never spoke in tongues work other gifts?

that is a very good question, no it is not an exercise. the second part of your question is too very good. From what I see in the book of Acts where all who were Baptized in the Holy Spirit after the day of Pentecost we do not see anywhere the gift of interpretation do we? Everyone who spoke in tongues or prophesied in Acts we do not see they spike in tounges and interpretation. It is 1cor chapter 12 to 14 where Paul teaches the gifts of the Holy Spirit and tongues and interpretation are listed as gifts of the Holy Spirit. It was a supernatural initial experience that was used to bring attention to people that something was happening as we see on the day of Pentecost. Many mocked said they were drunk but it was used to draw people in and 3000 were saved and added to the church. the Gift of Tongues is for the body of Christ and the church gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to those the Holy Spirit give too for the betterment of all as 1cor 12 says. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for power to be a witness as The Lord Jesus said in Acts 1:8
we who are saved all have the indwelled Holy Spirit
John 14:16-18

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


this is the wonderful difference of the working of the Holy Spirit from the OT .

In the OT the Spirit of God would come upon you and then HE would leave you. NOW he is living In us. and with us. HE is in and HE still comes upon to empower today.

 

[Waggles]

So in this scenario, the initial speaking in tongues at baptism of the HS is not an exercise of the gift of tongues? Can someone who never spoke in tongues work other gifts?

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is accompanied by the SIGN or evidence of speaking in a new tongue - a spiritual language for our
daily prayer (Mark 16:15-20, John 3:8, and of course the examples given in Acts).
Thus a Spirit-filled disciple can pray directly to God with spiritual power and faith; hence Pentecostals have numerous testimonies
to healings, miracles, providence and blessings.

This sign or evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a fundamental God given truth to avoid confusion and competing claims
as to who, how and when believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8: (ESV)
4 Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word.
5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ.
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed,
he was amazed.
14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

verses 15-17 teach us that people can believe the gospel, can be baptized, can desire to be right with God, but still NOT
have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. How did the Apostles know that these people had not received the Holy Ghost, and how did
the Apostles know that these believers had now received the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

2 And he [Paul] said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19: (ESV)
In my Pentecostal church - The Revival Fellowship - all speak in tongues when receiving the gift of the indwelling Holy Ghost.
There is no confusion, no arguments, no schisms - we all have the same testimonies to the transforming power of receiving the
Holy Spirit and beginning a new life in Christ Jesus.

 

[Waggles]

So in this scenario, the initial speaking in tongues at baptism of the HS is not an exercise of the gift of tongues? Can someone who never spoke in tongues work other gifts?

The nine gifts of the Holy Spirit are given and distributed to the Spirit-filled church: three of these gifts are "voice" gifts that only
operate within a church meeting:

7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according
to the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Corinthians 12:

I have personally never ever exercised any of the voice gifts in a church meeting, although I like all true Pentecostals, can pray
in tongues.
But I have on occasion uttered knowledge of the scriptures beyond my reading or knowing when witnessing to people.
In the church three gifts work together to produce a wonderful result that builds up (edifies) the body and the individual.
A person has a medical and ill-health issue, like cancer or an injury, and asks others to pray for them - the gifts of faith, working
of miracles and healing flow through the church and bring about the desired outcomes of healing, faith and the miraculous.

Continued in the next chat box

 

[Waggles]

So in this scenario, the initial speaking in tongues at baptism of the HS is not an exercise of the gift of tongues? Can someone who never spoke in tongues work other gifts?

28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
1Corinthians 12:
Here Paul is writing about the functioning and distribution of these nine gifts in the body of Christ: not everybody needs to be
the same and do the same.
You can tell how people in the congregation are endowed with particular gifts; evangelists (apostles) like Rita and Bob most
certainly have the gifts of knowledge and faith and working of miracles. This upholds and empowers their work.
Pastor Steve (a part time pastor with a full-time job) is a teacher and a prophet. He excels at his knowledge and understanding
of the full Bible and can deliver an enthralling uplifting 40 minute sermon. He really does shine out.
Some simply only give the voice gift of speaking in an unknown tongue, others can operate two gifts such as interpretation and
prophecy.

As for my self I have laid hands on people in need and received the gifts of faith, healing and working of miracles; and those
whom I have prayed for have been healed and raised up.
I have prayed to operate the voice gifts as Paul writes for us to desire, but that is not my cup of tea, and not my purpose in the
church congregation.
But I am a good counsellor and I have been given wisdom on occasion when needed to counsel others to keep their faith and to
remain in the fold (disciples can lose heart when things go wrong).

 

[KelbyofGod]

John 3:15-18
Ephesians 2:8
Salvation is the forgiveness of sin, eternal life, victory over death.
It is a gift of God to all WHO BY FAITH BELIEVE.

Not complicated at all.

Sorry I'm only now getting back to you on the idea of the use of the word "salvation" as if it is an agreed upon and very clear thing. I say it is not so clear of a concept.

For example:
I'd asked you to include every necessary part of "salvation" in your description, if it was so easily done. You said "Not complicated at all". But I didn't see any mention of repentance or turning from sin in your definition. Was that an omission of a necessary element, or do you believe that repentance is not a part of "salvation"?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby