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Colossians 2:10-17
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The whole old testament is a shadow of the work of Christ. What He has done and what He continues to do.
Passover was a shadow of what Christ would do for the whole world.
All the arguments about law and the old testament are arguments about whether to follow the shadow or follow Christ. Everyone puts their little twist on it, but that's what it boils down to.
If it were so important to follow the old testament the Apostles would have agreed with the pharisees who believed in Acts 15 and everyone would be following the law of Moses and all the shadows. But the Apostles knew that there was a better way.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The whole old testament is a shadow of the work of Christ. What He has done and what He continues to do.
Passover was a shadow of what Christ would do for the whole world.
All the arguments about law and the old testament are arguments about whether to follow the shadow or follow Christ. Everyone puts their little twist on it, but that's what it boils down to.
If it were so important to follow the old testament the Apostles would have agreed with the pharisees who believed in Acts 15 and everyone would be following the law of Moses and all the shadows. But the Apostles knew that there was a better way.
J
where i come from obeying what the teacher taught is not pride and arrogance, its learning and making the most of your lessons.
pride and arrogance comes in when you take what you learn and believe you are better than everyone around you. above everyone. if you find yourself at this point then it means you are doing something wrong. i am not aware of any teaching that says follow the law so you can be better and above all others.
those that try and follow Jesus dont do it to be better than everyone (pride) they do it because they believe its what He taught.
Jesus followed all the laws perfect, did it make Him prideful, he didnt act like it from what i have read.
pride and arrogance comes in when you take what you learn and believe you are better than everyone around you. above everyone. if you find yourself at this point then it means you are doing something wrong. i am not aware of any teaching that says follow the law so you can be better and above all others.
those that try and follow Jesus dont do it to be better than everyone (pride) they do it because they believe its what He taught.
Jesus followed all the laws perfect, did it make Him prideful, he didnt act like it from what i have read.
IF you honestly want to know how God explains the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, the best way to learn is to get a concordance and go through the Bible copying each passage you think is relevant into a document file and then prayerfully ask God what He was trying to communicate and then write out your reflections.
(I have done this and it is deeply helpful in understanding the old and new covenants.)
However, if you are just trying to promote your agenda, I heartily encourage you to do the above study anyway. We all can grow in God's wisdom and truth.
This is not a ten minute task, but God says we are to seek wisdom as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure. Pv 2:1-6.
He also says that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Heb 11:6
So, to you, is God (and His wisdom and truth) worth seeking? If so, do so, I will be happy to discuss the covenants with you in PMs.
W
My dear friend in Christ,
I disagree, and here's why
A correct understanding of the Bible {which BTW is a Catholic Book}, is that indeed the two major segments are intimately joined. The OT leads to the NT, which completes, fulfills, and even perfects the OT. The NT in many ways explains the OT, making it easier to comprehend.
That is why in my Catholic Catechesis for FIRST time readers of the bible, I suggest reading the NT forst, then the OT. And Here is WHY I do so:
[1] IN many way's the NT makes "sense" out of the OT.
Among many other things the NT points out the consistency of Just One. One God, One faith and One Chosen people
The use of priest in the OT being expanded and perfected in the NT through the Institution of the Seven sacraments by Jesus. From Baptism,{Jn 3:5} to Sacramental Confession {Jn 0:19-23} GOD"S WAY of sin forgiveness, to the Eucharist; the GIFT of Jesus Himself in Catholic Holy Communion as testified to by FIVE separate authors of the NT. ; and so-on.
[2] IN reading the OT first a novice can easily get a wrong impression of GOD, who can "come-off" as being vengeful, and even mean and cruel. When in FACT the God of the OT is the same God of the NT, now made visible through Jesus.
GOD can be briefly defined as "ALL Good things Perfected". Hence we can know that God can ONLY do and Desire GOD THINGS. So when we read in the OT of God inflicting severe actions; we can, if we take the time, discern that in each and every such case; God is ONLY being GOD. Because being Fair, being Just are GOOD things and God is exercising His Right; His Duty to punish evil and reward good.
[3] By first gaining insight into the incomprehensible love of GOD for His Created Humanity:Rom.5:[8] But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us..... we are better able to grasp the true Divine Nature and it's relationship to man.
[4] Yahweh in the OT is a hidden and feared God{not rightly and fully understood God} And certainly this is ONE of the many aspects of God which is not to overshadow the other attributes. .... Because of Grace, NOW made available to man in order to make man's salvation an enhanced possibility {salvation and redemption NOT having the same identical meaning}; makes evident God Love and Mercy. So very helpful when reading the OT.
So for THESE and many other reason, for novice bible readers, it seems prudent to first read the NT.
God Bless you
Patrick
W
REALLY??????
Certainly the OT was written before the Institution of the CC by Jesus; BUT it was {historically provable as no bible existed; all though the TORA did, and it WAS the Early Catholic Church Fathers {we Catholics were the ONLY recognized Christian for about 1,400 BEFORE the reformation} and the term Catholic was first used in 110 AD
Further it was CATHOLICS who authored the entire New Testament, and it was CATHOLICS who set the ORIGINAL Canon of the bible at 73 books... ALL historically provable
Might I suggest that you GOOGLE: History of the bible; KEEPING IN MIND that all references to "church" mean precisely and exclusively THEE Catholic Church as NO OTHER "recognized Christian churches even EXISTED" until AFTER the Reformation in the early 16th Century.
NOT just my opinion friend, but historical facts
GBY
Really...?
You are trying to equate the current Roman Catholic Church institution with the generic term "catholic" (meaning universal) that was commonly used before the RCC institution was ever instituted.
This is the historical fact. It is also a fact that the "Roman Catholic Church" did not author the New Testament. It was authored by Christian believers, who, if you wish, can be called a part of the "catholic" (universal) church of the time.
But the institution of the "Roman Catholic Church" did not exist until centuries after the New Testament books were written.
Do you accept that there is a distinction between the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and the generic term "catholic" which was used at the time to mean the world wide Christian church?
If not, why not, please?
W
Ahhhh.... the ONLY Christian AND THEREFORE Catholic Church to exist anywhere in the WORLD prior to the Great Easter Schism of 1054 AD is today's Catholic Church
CATHOLIC
CATHOLIC. Its original meaning of "general" or "universal" has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2), it is now mainly used in five recognized senses: 1. the Catholic Church as distinct from Christian ecclesiastical bodies that do not recognize the papal primacy; 2. the Catholic faith as the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed "everywhere, always, and by all" (Vincentian Canon); 3. orthodoxy as distinguished from what is heretical or schismatical; 4. the undivided Church before the Eastern Schism of 1054; thereafter the Eastern Church has called itself orthodox, in contrast with those Christian bodies which did not accept the definitions of Ephesus and Chalcedon on the divinity of Christ.
WHENEVER THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF "THE CHURCH" OR REFERENCES "THE CHURCHES"
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[TD]Originally Posted by SpeakKindly
How do we know we're correct, let alone following the full truth?
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Here's the answer I would give.
The Church has been Catholic from the 1st century. The English word Catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole.What "Catholic" Means | Catholic Answers
So one THEN can ask, where does kata holos appear in scripture and particularly kata holos ekklesia ?
Acts 9:31 the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς ,Judea and Galilee and Sama'ria..." = Kataholos Church.
Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch from ~69 a.d. to ~107 a.d. He was ordained by the apostles, and was a direct disciple of St John. It was in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christian Acts 11:26 . And Ignatius in his writings uses both "Christian" and "Catholic Church" in his writings.
- St Ignatius, uses Christian (ch 2) and Catholic Church (ch 8) Epistle to the Smyrnæans of which schismatics won't be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians (ch 3) . As an aside, where would Ignatius learn to teach that warning and corresponding consequence for one's soul, for commiting and remaining in the sin of schism / division from the Catholic Church? Paul condemned division / dissention from the Church Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 and Jesus does NOT approve of division in His Church John 17:20-23 , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus John 16:12-15 no one can say the HS inspired all the division we see today in Christianity. There is no expiration date to that warning and condemnation
- St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the "Catholic Church" The Martyrdom of Polycarp
- Muratorian canon http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...uratoria n.html uses authority of “Catholic Church”
- Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote "Against Heresies" called the Church the "Catholic Church" Adversus haereses [Bk 1 Chapter 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Chapter 3, v 2-3]
- Cyprian~250 a.d. calls the Church the Catholic Church Epistle 54
- The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it's a matter of faith to believe in the "One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church"
- Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her [i.e. the Catholic Church's] bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental (ch 5 v6)
Check your history my friend
GBY
OK. Thank you. You show that you are equating "catholic", as it was used by the early church, with the institution of the "Roman Catholic Church" because they both use the word "catholic". I don't think that is intellectually honest, but that is just my opinion. You are free to believe as you wish. Thank you for clarifying your position for me.
For the sake of clarification:
1) Because the Bible is 100% absolute truth and God's inerrant word (found in 66 books) for the Body of Christ (Born again believers)
2) Every reference to "church" or "churches" was intended by God and the authors of the NT to mean directly, precisely, and exclusively those who are born again, called as living stones to comprise the Body of Christ.
May the Lord give us all understanding!
1) Because the Bible is 100% absolute truth and God's inerrant word (found in 66 books) for the Body of Christ (Born again believers)
2) Every reference to "church" or "churches" was intended by God and the authors of the NT to mean directly, precisely, and exclusively those who are born again, called as living stones to comprise the Body of Christ.
May the Lord give us all understanding!
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J
Lol, LaurenTM! After bouncing over from a thread that was talking about comedy, the Stooges, Monty Python, and the Marx Brothers, I can't believe I read 'Everyone wants to be Jewish these days'.
Lol, I'm cracking up!
I can almost hear Groucho Marx replying,
Not me...I just want to be loved
!
(But I'll settle for Jewish, if it pays well,
and I get time off for good behavior!)
Thank you, Jesus, SOOO MUCH, for the gifts of humor and laughter,
I love you, Lord, and I love our sisters and brothers in Christ. God bless you.
Lol, I'm cracking up!
I can almost hear Groucho Marx replying,
Not me...I just want to be loved
!(But I'll settle for Jewish, if it pays well,
and I get time off for good behavior!)
Thank you, Jesus, SOOO MUCH, for the gifts of humor and laughter,
I love you, Lord, and I love our sisters and brothers in Christ. God bless you.