When are we saved ?

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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Keeping things in context; Paul is addressing the saints which are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus. The "we", "ye", "us", "our" in Eph 1 are to those he is addressing. Verse 13 is stating that, those who are being addressed, having already received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise of their eternal inheritance, which is the earnest of their inheritance. Eph 1 is not referencing the natural man.
Yes, that this epistle was written to those saints in Ephesus and those faithful in Christ Jesus, yet you disregard the verse 12 that these we", "ye", "us", "our" have first trusted in Christ and that is the point when these Ephesians believers were "in Christ" or when they were saved. Your first as the scripture of truth says is nothing in your context.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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No we were not in Him before we existed, but we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. You are getting tripped up by the preposition “in”. Do some digging on the various uses of the preposition
When did they get in him . Remember eph 2. 11-12 .
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,542
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No we were not in Him before we existed, but we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. You are getting tripped up by the preposition “in”. Do some digging on the various uses of the preposition
We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world...the fact that we can be chosen in Christ before we are placed into Christ is because of God’s perfect FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Not difficult at all
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,590
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No we were not in Him before we existed, but we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. You are getting tripped up by the preposition “in”. Do some digging on the various uses of the preposition
I don't need to zoom into isolated words and start greekifying everything as if we're all Greek scholars . Context , context, context.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world...the fact that we can be chosen in Christ before we are placed into Christ is because of God’s perfect FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Not difficult at all
Then explain eph 2.11-12
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,503
307
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There's never a covenant with the Church . Always Israel . You are deceived.
Can you agree that the followers of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah is the Church? Is God's covenant with the house of David from the tribe of Judah? Do you know that Ephraim is dispersed throughout the world? Do you know that Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah's Church gathers the body of Christ from the nations, that was dispersed by the curse of Deuteronomy 28:64. Do you know that God's old covenant with Israel was broken by Israel, before their dispersion throughout the world? Did you know that God made a knew covenant in the Old Testament with dispersed Israel, and promised that he will gather them again from the outskirts of the world? Do you know that Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah only came for the lost sheep of Israel? Do you know that the lost sheep of Israel may today, after 2700 years of dispersion in the outskirts of the world be in the body of an Indian, Frenchman, Spaniard, Khoisan, Jew, German, African, Chinese, Englishman, Russian, American, Mexican, etc...?


Deuteronomy 28 (ESV)


64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

Zephaniah 3 (NLT)


10 My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.


Matthew 15 (ESV)


24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


John 11 (ESV)


51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.


Acts 1 (ESV)


6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

True scattered Israel = The eternal covenant assembly of God = True gathered Church under eternal Kingship of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,542
973
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Then explain eph 2.11-12
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Because God chooses before time and saves in time. Are you sure you’re not an open theist?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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God chose us in Christ before we were in Christ because God has perfect foreknowledge.

Not that complicated, really.
So you don't exist . Your not even born , but some how God has chosen you in Jesus to be holy and blameless. Is this your position ? is this your idea of conditional election ?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,503
307
83
Can you agree that the followers of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah is the Church? Is God's covenant with the house of David from the tribe of Judah? Do you know that Ephraim is dispersed throughout the world? Do you know that Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah's Church gathers the body of Christ from the nations, that was dispersed by the curse of Deuteronomy 28:64. Do you know that God's old covenant with Israel was broken by Israel, before their dispersion throughout the world? Did you know that God made a knew covenant in the Old Testament with dispersed Israel, and promised that he will gather them again from the outskirts of the world? Do you know that Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah only came for the lost sheep of Israel? Do you know that the lost sheep of Israel may today, after 2700 years of dispersion in the outskirts of the world be in the body of an Indian, Frenchman, Spaniard, Khoisan, Jew, German, African, Chinese, Englishman, Russian, American, Mexican, etc...?


Deuteronomy 28 (ESV)


64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

Zephaniah 3 (NLT)


10 My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.


Matthew 15 (ESV)


24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


John 11 (ESV)


51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.


Acts 1 (ESV)


6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

True scattered Israel = The eternal covenant assembly of God = True gathered Church under eternal Kingship of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah
oftheCreator.com
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,590
113
Can you agree that the followers of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah is the Church? Is God's covenant with the house of David from the tribe of Judah? Do you know that Ephraim is dispersed throughout the world? Do you know that Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah's Church gathers the body of Christ from the nations, that was dispersed by the curse of Deuteronomy 28:64. Do you know that God's old covenant with Israel was broken by Israel, before their dispersion throughout the world? Did you know that God made a knew covenant in the Old Testament with dispersed Israel, and promised that he will gather them again from the outskirts of the world? Do you know that Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah only came for the lost sheep of Israel? Do you know that the lost sheep of Israel may today, after 2700 years of dispersion in the outskirts of the world be in the body of an Indian, Frenchman, Spaniard, Khoisan, Jew, German, African, Chinese, Englishman, Russian, American, Mexican, etc...?


Deuteronomy 28 (ESV)


64 "And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

Zephaniah 3 (NLT)


10 My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.


Matthew 15 (ESV)


24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


John 11 (ESV)


51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.


Acts 1 (ESV)


6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

True scattered Israel = The eternal covenant assembly of God = True gathered Church under eternal Kingship of Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah
Then Paul is converted after Israel is temporarily set aside because of their disobedience.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,590
113
Because God chooses before time and saves in time. Are you sure you’re not an open theist?
So i assume your saying there are some that God has not chosen to be saved ? before they even sinned ? before the fall even ? And you were chosen to be saved out side of the cross and resurrection?
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,503
307
83
Neither Jew or gentile = church

Abraham was not isreal he was father of many nations. Israel was one of his sons
Abraham is the father of Ishmael and Isaac.

Isaac is the father of Esau (Edomites which God "hates") and Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel, because he struggled with God, and persevered)

Jacob is the father of the 12 tribes of Israel, who became divided after the united kingdom's King Solomon fell into idol worship and collected 666 talents of gold in one year from the then united kingdom of the Israelites.

After King Solomon's death the kingdom of Israel split into the:

Northern kingdom of Israel (whose people today are the non-Jews in the Church regathered, formerly scattered lost tribes of Israel) where the ten northern tribes were under the half tribe of Ephraim son of Joseph, one of the 12 sons of Jacob; and the

Southern kindom of Judah (whose people today from the time of the Judean southern kingdom, were referred to as Jews, of which Messianic Jews are part of today's Church)