WHEN DID GRACE BY FAITH END AND SALVATION BY WORKS BEGIN AS IN SHEEP/GOAT JUDGEMENT

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
661
260
63
Pennsylvania
#1
The Judgment of the Nations
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
23,786
12,593
113
#2
The Judgment of the Nations
This is still in the future and will take place after the Second Coming of Christ. Right now we are still in the Gospel Age or the Day of Grace. Don't be too anxious to bring the future forward.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
661
260
63
Pennsylvania
#3
This is still in the future and will take place after the Second Coming of Christ. Right now we are still in the Gospel Age or the Day of Grace. Don't be too anxious to bring the future forward.
I agree somewhat but most things are in the future. How can you undertand the Tribulation if you do not understand this Judgement
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
766
113
#4
The Judgment of the Nations
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Why is the coming judgment of works, such a clear teaching of Scripture and such a central motivating force among God’s people for centuries, so badly ignored in the western church today?

Partly because, through misunderstandings and embracing half truths, we have come to believe that our works are not important to God. On the contrary, they are extremely important to God, and should be given careful attention by ourselves.

There are many references to the importance of works. As a start, look at the Book of Revelations:

Revelations 20 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life.* The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls........All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire.

To Christians Jesus says, “I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds” (Revelation 2:23).

Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them” (Revelation 14:13).
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
766
113
#5
Somewhere we’ve gotten the erroneous idea that to God “works” is a dirty word. This is totally false. While he condemns works done to earn salvation, and works done to impress others, our Lord enthusiastically commends righteous works done for the right reasons. Immediately after saying our salvation is “not by works,” Paul adds: “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Ephesians 2:8-10). Salvation is a matter of God’s work for man. Reward is a matter of man’s work for God.

God created us to do good works, has a lifetime of good works for each of us to do and will reward us according to whether or not we do them. Indeed, Scripture ties God’s reward-giving to his very character: “God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them” (Hebrews 6:10). The verses that follow in Hebrews 6 tell us that if we are to inherit God’s promised blessings we must not become lazy, but be diligent to do our God-given works.

Good works are essential to the Christian life, as James repeatedly states (James 2:17,18,22,24,26). “Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom” (James 3:13).
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
766
113
#6
Didn't Jesus teach us to do the Father's Will? To do the Father's will requires works of love.

When Jesus taught us the Lord's prayer, He taught us to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." This is not a nebulas part of the prayer, we pray that we will do the Father's will. What is the Father's will, it's to love God with our whole heart and our neighbor as ourself.

How important is the Father's will to each Christian? Didn't Jesus tell us that "Many will call Him Lord and will not be saved, but only those that do the Will of the Father in heaven will be saved." Matthew 7

And Jesus emphasized that fools only heard the word and didn't do the word, " Matthew 7
“Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.r
The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house.s But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
23,786
12,593
113
#7
I agree somewhat but most things are in the future. How can you understand the Tribulation if you do not understand this Judgement
Those are two separate events in the future. The Tribulation is BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ and the Judgment of the Nations is AFTER the Second Coming. It is even plainly stated as "When the Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:" (Mt 25:31)
 
May 17, 2023
830
57
28
#8
Those who are saved by grace have the love of the Lord shed abroad in their hearts.

Therefore, if given the opportunity, they will help "the least of these His brethren".

If they do not have the opportunity, God does not look on the outward appearance but the heart.

He knows whether or not you would have helped them if the opportunity had arisen.

And if you would have (because the love of the Lord is shed abroad in your heart),

you will be counted as having helped "the least of these His brethren"

It should be clear from such passages as Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6, and Titus 3:4-7, that salvation is "not by works of righteousness which we have done."
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,865
8,680
113
#9
The Judgment of the Nations
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
There is nothing new here. The lack of fruit and works has always been the symptom and effect of lack of salvation, not the root cause. Salvation shall always be by faith in Jesus and what He did. Fruit and works will follow true faith.

There is a Judgement that concerns works, but it is not the one you mention above, and salvation is not at stake. It is called the Bema Seat and is only for determination of rewards.
 
Jun 12, 2021
416
91
28
#10
Those who are saved by grace have the love of the Lord shed abroad in their hearts.

Therefore, if given the opportunity, they will help "the least of these His brethren".

If they do not have the opportunity, God does not look on the outward appearance but the heart.

He knows whether or not you would have helped them if the opportunity had arisen.

And if you would have (because the love of the Lord is shed abroad in your heart),

you will be counted as having helped "the least of these His brethren"

It should be clear from such passages as Romans 4:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6, and Titus 3:4-7, that salvation is "not by works of righteousness which we have done."
2 Corinthians 2:15-16
King James Version


15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

1 Corinthians 1:18
King James Version


18 For the preaching of the cross is to them (nonelects) that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved (God's elects) it is the power of God.

I assume more than 99% of the world's population are nonelects.

https://spreadthegospel59.wordpress...s-powerful-how-do-we-receive-the-holy-spirit/

God only loves God's elects/sheeps/wheats

God hates the nonelects/wolfs/tares
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
661
260
63
Pennsylvania
#11
Rewards are important for a Christian but not a condition for salvation till a certain point in the Tribulation and everthing changes. You cannot deny that the Sheep were not saved by works, the scriptures are clear, and it is not by faith and works combined that brings salvation. Works are for rewards only.

To begin with the Judgement is only for Gentiles. This is what the word Nation means and does not include Israel.

Sheep and Goats were the few living survivors of the bowl judgements and not a living righeous one among them.

This Judgement determines who will enter the Kingdom with flesh and blood to repopulate the earth during the next 1000 years.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,865
8,680
113
#12
To begin with the Judgement is only for Gentiles.
The Judgement is for all who do not come in through the Door, which is Jesus. The Jews at the end of the Tribulation must come to recognize Him whom they have pierced (and many shall.)


Sheep and Goats were the few living survivors of the bowl judgements and not a living righeous one among them.
If that were true then they would all be goats. Some will come in during the Tribulation, especially Jews, but not exclusively.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
661
260
63
Pennsylvania
#13
The Judgement is for all who do not come in through the Door, which is Jesus. The Jews at the end of the Tribulation must come to recognize Him whom they have pierced (and many shall.)



If that were true then they would all be goats. Some will come in during the Tribulation, especially Jews, but not exclusively.
The Judgement is for all who do not come in through the Door, which is Jesus. The Jews at the end of the Tribulation must come to recognize Him whom they have pierced (and many shall.)



If that were true then they would all be goats. Some will come in during the Tribulation, especially Jews, but not exclusively.
In reality they were all goats but only because of their works were some deemed sheep.

As for Israel:

8 In the whole land, says the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call on my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,865
8,680
113
#14
In reality they were all goats but only because of their works were some deemed sheep.

As for Israel:

8 In the whole land, says the Lord,
two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call on my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
And now for the real story...
Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,429
3,479
113
#15
The Judgment of the Nations
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The time of Jacob’s Trouble…the Jews will be scattered about the nations, and the nations will be judged according to their treatment of the Jews.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
661
260
63
Pennsylvania
#16
And now for the real story...
Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”
Absolutely and these 1/3 will also enter the Kingdom in flesh and blood.
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
661
260
63
Pennsylvania
#17
The time of Jacob’s Trouble…the Jews will be scattered about the nations, and the nations will be judged according to their treatment of the Jews.
I agree some will be scattered and who are some of these but those that heed the warning to:

17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle.

They are escaping the kingdom of the antichrist and the gentiles who assist them are those who are called by the Lord to be sheep.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,865
8,680
113
#18
I agree some will be scattered and who are some of these but those that heed the warning to:

17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle.

They are escaping the kingdom of the antichrist and the gentiles who assist them are those who are called by the Lord to be sheep.
Revelation 12:6
“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,865
8,680
113
#19
Absolutely and these 1/3 will also enter the Kingdom in flesh and blood.
And some with child? I wonder what the nature of these children will be? (I think it says the animals will be nice.)
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
4,806
2,494
113
London
christianchat.com
#20
The Judgment of the Nations
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The problem starts and ends with the decision of the 4th century Roman Catholic Church's decision to scrap the 1, 000 year reign of Christ with His saints on earth.

They introduced Amillennialism into the church which believes that the 1, 000 years is an indefinite period and we are already in that epoch where Christ reigns on earth through the [un]holy Catholic Church.

The Latin Vulgate bible of St Jerome [which all other translations have followed] translates Matthew 25 according to this new doctrine.

So when Christ comes to sit upon His throne and all His holy ones, the holy ones become angels. It's the same word sacredos can be saints or angels. He makes them angels instead of what Paul teaches that God brings the church with Him to judge the world.

Having mistaken the church for angels Jerome must now find the church.

He finds them in the sheep on the right hand. They are not the church, they cannot be the church for the church will have been raptured 1, 000 years earlier and have reigned in heaven with Him. We are passed over from this judgement to life as John teaches.

So these sheep are a people who are judged on the basis of works.

This settles the argument, are we [the church] saved by grace alone through faith or by works.