When did the Trinitarian concept enter and disrupt the strict monotheistic religion of Judaism and early Christianity?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#41
Do you mean to say they expected God to incarnate as Jesus did?
Please note that in The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim we have this:
APPENDIX IX. LIST OF OLD TESTAMENT PASSAGES MESSIANICALLY APPLIED IN ANCIENT RABBINIC WRITINGS (Vol. i. Book II. ch. v.) There are 456 passages mentioned, but here are a few key passages:

Ps. xlv. is throughout regarded as Messianic. To begin with; the Targum renders verse 2 (3 in the Hebrew): ‘Thy beauty, O King Messiah, is greater than that of the sons of men.’
Ps. lxxii. This Psalm also was viewed by the ancient Synagogue as throughout Messianic, as indicated by the fact that the Targum renders the very first verse: ‘Give the sentence of Thy judgment to the King Messiah, and Thy justice to the Son of David the King,’ which is re-echoed by the Midrash on the passage (ed. Warsh. p. 55 b) which applies it explicitly to the Messiah, with reference to Is. xi. 1. Similarly, the Talmud applies ver. 16 to Messianic times (in a very hyperbolical passage, Shabb. 30 b, line 4 from the bottom). The last clause of verse 16 is applied, in Keth. 111 b, line 21 from top, and again in the Midr. on Eccl. i. 9, to the Messiah sending down manna like Moses.6432

Dan. vii. 9. This passage was interpreted by R. Akiba as implying that one throne was set for God, and the other for the Messiah (Chag. 14 a).
Dan. vii. 13 is curiously explained in the Talmud (Sanh. 98 a), where it is said that, if Israel behaved worthily, the Messiah would come in the clouds of heaven; if otherwise, humble, and riding upon an ass.
The well-know passage, Micah v. 2, is admittedly Messianic. So in the Targum, in the Pirqé de R. Eliez. c. 3, and by later Rabbis.

Because the religious leaders and teachers of Jesus's day, the scribes and Pharisees, and even many of the people, strenuously objected to Jesus making any reference to His equal status with God.
Yes. They did. But that is because they would not repent and believe on Him. However they all knew what is shown above.

Christ specifically referred to "coming in the clouds of heaven" since they also knew that this Son of Man (who is also Son of God) mentioned in Daniel was also divine. Otherwise how could He be given all the kingdoms of the world? I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. (Dan 7:13)

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. (Mt 26:63-65)

Also we should never forget that when Herod inquired about where the King of the Jews would be born, the chief priests and scribes deliberately failed to quote Micah 5:2 in full. Only God is eternal and that passage was knows by the rabbis to apply to Messiah. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; [ whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.] omitted.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,803
2,077
113
46
#42
I am not saying other people were not there present.
I am saying this "sign" was only for John and not other people.
So John saw but other people did not see.
Right, and you come to this conclusion because it's not spelled out in the Bible.
You probably would like it spelled out like The Transfiguration and even then, some people have a lot of doubts about the soul sleep doctrine or when we pray for the dead.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#43
Right, and you come to this conclusion because it's not spelled out in the Bible.
You probably would like it spelled out like The Transfiguration and even then, some people have a lot of doubts about the soul sleep doctrine or when we pray for the dead.
I say this because GOD told John he would see this but God did not tell others they would see it.

33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit'


If you think other people saw this then show me "one verse" that says other people saw it to back your claim?
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,803
2,077
113
46
#44
I say this because GOD told John he would see this but God did not tell others they would see it.

33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit'


If you think other people saw this then show me one verse to back your claim?
I understand.
But if we were to scrutinize this verse about technical details then it doesn't say that the Father says that This is my Son, does it?
So the question in the OP may have no meaning for some, as to when.
Because you are able to connect the dots in that verse, but unable to connect them in another.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#45
How many times were the Jews going to stone Jesus but He was able to basically become invisible and they no longer could see Him?

If God doesn't want other people to see they will not be seeing.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#46
I understand.
But if we were to scrutinize this verse about technical details then it doesn't say that the Father says that This is my Son, does it?
So the question in the OP may have no meaning for some, as to when.
Because you are able to connect the dots in that verse, but unable to connect them in another.
We're talking about how God does things and you're using human logic to explain it.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,803
2,077
113
46
#47
We're talking about how God does things and you're using human logic to explain it.
I see.
So when we read:

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

You don't use your logic to understand that?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#48
I see.
So when we read:

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

You don't use your logic to understand that?
What does that have to do with God showing John a "sign?"
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#50
It shows chronology and the order of events.
John was convinced by Jesus and than we get the miracle.
We got John's Testimony is what we got

32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him."
 
Dec 29, 2023
1,327
236
63
#51
When did the Trinitarian concept enter and disrupt the strict monotheistic religion of Judaism and early Christianity?

Ever notice all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever notice all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever notice all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?


1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

This pretty much ends the controversy for those that believe God's Word. :cool:
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,803
2,077
113
46
#52
We got John's Testimony is what we got

32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him."
Great reasoning.
So where did you conclude that only John saw this and not other people?
Also how come you can't connect these two dots here? If the sign in John 1:33 was required, then how come John didn't require it before baptizing Jesus?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#53
While Christians may interpret certain Old Testament passages as allusions to the Trinity, these interpretations are through a Christian theological lens and are not in line with traditional Jewish thought or exegesis.
So in fact you are Anti-Trinitarian, but will not honestly admit it. Since you prefer "traditional Jewish thought" kindly identify yourself.
 
Dec 29, 2023
1,327
236
63
#54
So in fact you are Anti-Trinitarian, but will not honestly admit it. Since you prefer "traditional Jewish thought" kindly identify yourself.

Yeah, so who wants to get the thoughts of a mindset that rejects Jesus as the Messiah?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#55
Great reasoning.
So where did you conclude that only John saw this and not other people?
Also how come you can't connect these two dots here? If the sign in John 1:33 was required, then how come John didn't require it before baptizing Jesus?
The Bible says plainly this was a SIGN for John.
It was not for other people, only for John to see.
I go by the Bible not by my own reasoning and understanding.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,803
2,077
113
46
#56
The Bible says plainly this was a SIGN for John.
It was not for other people, only for John to see.
I go by the Bible not by my own reasoning and understanding.
Well since we are discussing or disregarding this Trinity verse and we are adopting a John point of view we then need to ask some questions about John.
If this was meant completely for John then why didn’t John check for these signs before the baptism?

John Testifies About Jesus
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”
How does John know that Jesus is the anointed one before baptism and who is he saying “look” to?
The crowd who didn’t see the Dove and heard the voice of The Father?
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,803
2,077
113
46
#57
Also if no one but John saw this event then what makes you think that this isn’t a triune relationship when John sees the Dove and hears the voice in regards to Jesus?
If this isn’t the ‘when‘ according to you, then do you have a date for the ‘when’ so we can help out the op?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#58
Also if no one but John saw this event then what makes you think that this isn’t a triune relationship when John sees the Dove and hears the voice in regards to Jesus?
If this isn’t the ‘when‘ according to you, then do you have a date for the ‘when’ so we can help out the op?
Show me the verse where it says JOHN'S SIGN was for others to see?
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#60
Also if no one but John saw this event then what makes you think that this isn’t a triune relationship when John sees the Dove and hears the voice in regards to Jesus?
If this isn’t the ‘when‘ according to you, then do you have a date for the ‘when’ so we can help out the op?
Matthew 28:19 the Commission.

Scripture for the New Testament wasn't written until about 30 years after the Ascension of Jesus but the Apostles were fulfilling the Commission.

And then we must decide when the Baptism was changed:
Catholic Catechism:
The baptismal formula was changed from the name of JESUS CHRIST to the words Father, Son, & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century. Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took place in the name of Jesus Christ .July 2, 2016