When does the rapture occur?
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P
Your gurus at UCG butcher the scriptures.
From your leaders;
"As you read verse 13, you discover that Christians in Thessalonica were grieving over the unexpected deaths of members of their congregation.
Albert Barnes comments: "There seems some reason to suppose...that some of them believed that, though those who were dead would indeed rise again, yet it would be long after those who were living when the Lord Jesus would return had been taken to glory, and would always be in a condition inferior to them" ( Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, notes on 1 Thessalonians:4:13).
Paul wrote that they should not grieve over this: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus [believers who had died]" (verse 14).
Was he responding to a worry about whether Christ would rescue believers from the Great Tribulation? No, nothing is said of this.
Nor is there anything in these verses that intimates Christ making a swooping pass by the earth to snatch off a few people to take them to heaven. These verses refer only to the doctrine of the second coming, at which time Jesus sets foot on the earth."
The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine - World News and Prophecy | United Church of God
Typical postrib dance and twist.
No wonder you refused to link that mess you posted earlier
From your leaders;
"As you read verse 13, you discover that Christians in Thessalonica were grieving over the unexpected deaths of members of their congregation.
Albert Barnes comments: "There seems some reason to suppose...that some of them believed that, though those who were dead would indeed rise again, yet it would be long after those who were living when the Lord Jesus would return had been taken to glory, and would always be in a condition inferior to them" ( Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, notes on 1 Thessalonians:4:13).
Paul wrote that they should not grieve over this: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus [believers who had died]" (verse 14).
Was he responding to a worry about whether Christ would rescue believers from the Great Tribulation? No, nothing is said of this.
Nor is there anything in these verses that intimates Christ making a swooping pass by the earth to snatch off a few people to take them to heaven. These verses refer only to the doctrine of the second coming, at which time Jesus sets foot on the earth."
The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine - World News and Prophecy | United Church of God
Typical postrib dance and twist.
No wonder you refused to link that mess you posted earlier
P
The resurrection happens when? On the Last Day
The Rapture happens when? After the resurrection
The Judgment happens when? On the Last Day
See if you can follow the bouncing ball.
.
The Rapture happens when? After the resurrection
The Judgment happens when? On the Last Day
See if you can follow the bouncing ball.
.
No resurrection after Gt <-> no rescue of noah postflood
"Last day" cliche fail. Bouncing ball on flat earth building blocks
Next
S
God says not to hurt others, in a mixed marriage who gets hurt the children, and before you say that's because of mean people, well you know they have that attitude why would you want to use your children just to make a point?
and if Gid wanted one race he would not of made different races.
and if Gid wanted one race he would not of made different races.
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S
And another thing there the only church I have seen that backs up everything the say with a scripture, or reference books, other churches seem to preach what they have heard all there lives instead of what the scripture actually says. I know one thing for sure if I do not keep Gods Sabbath and keep his commandments and His holy days, I will be going through the tribulation and people that don't believe this wont stand a chance in living in Gods new Kingdom unless they repent. But it won't be until the second resurrection and you sure don't want to be in the third resurrection.
How about here?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
One taken, one left behind.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
I want to be the one left behind because I don't like where the wicked are being taken - to a burning fire.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
After the tares are gone, we are the left behind to shine forth and to be gathered into the barn. Guess where? Right here on earth!!
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
See how the Pre-trib doctrine twists everything, reverses everything it gets it all backwards?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
One taken, one left behind.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
I want to be the one left behind because I don't like where the wicked are being taken - to a burning fire.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
After the tares are gone, we are the left behind to shine forth and to be gathered into the barn. Guess where? Right here on earth!!
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
See how the Pre-trib doctrine twists everything, reverses everything it gets it all backwards?
Plainword, I am sure you know better than to comment on a single verse without reading the Context, but apparently this time you did not read the CONTEXT: The Covenant (Peace Treaty) is DEFINITELY with ISRAEL, and I think that the many is a reference to their Enemies also. This Peace Treaty allows Israel to build the THIRD TEMPLE.
Daniel 9:20-24 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
That is a WEEK OF YEARS, all SEVENTY WEEKS of Daniel are Weeks of years, therefore "in the middle of the week" therefore is 3 and a half years. The Antichrist comes as a Conqueror (Rider on a White Horse) with a BOW, not a Bow and Arrows. Carrying only the BOW is symbolism for coming Peacefully, therefore this conqueror is invited to rule. ALSO "covenant with many" is a Peace Treaty.
Daniel 9:20-24 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
That is a WEEK OF YEARS, all SEVENTY WEEKS of Daniel are Weeks of years, therefore "in the middle of the week" therefore is 3 and a half years. The Antichrist comes as a Conqueror (Rider on a White Horse) with a BOW, not a Bow and Arrows. Carrying only the BOW is symbolism for coming Peacefully, therefore this conqueror is invited to rule. ALSO "covenant with many" is a Peace Treaty.
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"Don't need to..."
My conclusion comes from something called "common sense" ( I like to call it "rare sense", because it does not seem to be that common any more... ).
My conclusion comes from something called "common sense" ( I like to call it "rare sense", because it does not seem to be that common any more... ).
Then the Combination of Your WILD THEORY and Your "rare sense", adds up to the Second Coming, happened when Christ appeared to Saul (Paul) on the Damascus Road.
Acts 9:17 (ESV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Please read the Olivet Discourse carefully (Mat 24). I know you read it a dozen or more times, but read it again carefully. Obviously there is no mention of a Pre-Trib Rapture return which is odd considering if there was one, you'd think He'd tell His disciples about it since the churches they were being tasked to found and lead would be taken, but look to see if you can find mention of a millennial reign before we get to the part about those taken and those left behind. I don't see it, do you?
Follow the context. In verse 30 we find...
...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...
This is the event He is discussing. His Coming. What does He say next?
...He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect...
So He sends His angels to gather (not rapture) His elect. He makes no mention of these people being "caught up" into clouds to meet Him on his way down. The word, Harpazo, is not found in this passage at all. That is a big deal. Why? Because Christ doesn't Harpazo anybody, God does (1 Thes 4:14). But, I digress. What's next?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
What "all these things" will take place?" The context suggests at a minimum His return and gathering and likely all the stuff going all the way back to the Abomination of Desolation and GT, but for sure His return and gathering, right? Now please pay close attention to verse 36.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“But of that day and hour no one knows...
What is He talking about here? What does the "day and hour" refer to? Doesn't say, week, month, season, year - just day or hour. My educated guess is this goes back to His return and gathering. If you disagree what would be your guess? What's next?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be...
This is pretty clear. The Coming of the Son of Man event will be like the Days of Noah and nobody knows the day or hour of His Return and Gathering (Two events). He returns, He sends His angels to gather. Have we completed the 1,000 year millennial reign yet? Obviously not as He is just getting here and He's still talking about His Getting Here.
What happens next is key to the whole passage and proves my position. The "THEY" mentioned next are the wicked. The wicked are yucking it up and having a good time, clueless on what is about to happen.
...they (wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them (wicked) all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Did you see that? The wicked are "swept" or taken away (just like in the days of Noah) when the Son of Man comes. To emphasis this point, Jesus uses two more examples of the same event in the very next verse.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken (wicked) and the other left. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken (wicked) and the other left.
There it is. The one man taken and the one woman taken are the wicked. The other two are left to be "gathered" into the barn. To prove we are still talking about Christ's return and not a period after 1,000 years the passage is book ended by this.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
Still talking about THE RETURN OF CHRIST. The wicked are taken, the righteous are left to be "gathered" into the Barn/Kingdom. This totally agrees with Matthew 13. Matthew of course having written both passages isn't going to disagree with himself.
Christ returns to Israel to reign. The wicked have to be removed from the Land where He is to reign. So, they have to go and we see that here. See if you can pick up the order.
...at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Who is being gathered first? The tares aka wicked. We see the same order again.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend (wicked), and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
See that? Wicked are being removed from the Kingdom. And we see it again here.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [SUP]50 [/SUP]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
END OF THE AGE is when Christ returns which is also the LAST DAY. So you have 3 times in Mat 13 where the wicked are separated out from the just and the same order is repeated in Mat 24 with three additional examples; Noah, Men in Field, Women at mill.
ALL OF THIS HAPPENS AT HIS RETURN, NOT AFTER HIS REIGN ON EARTH. IT IS BEFORE HIS REIGN ON EARTH STARTS.
I'm sorry, I know these facts throw a huge wrench into the Pre-Trib Rapture (HARPAZO) snatching doctrine because when Christ returns, He returns to reign on the earth, to rid His Kingdom and throne of the wicked and to gather His Chosen to Him to reign with Him. Thus Christ completely answered the original question...
And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
The End of the Age we are in happens when Christ returns and starts His reign. We then enter a brand new age. Through all the Olivet Christ is silent about any rapture cloud-only return, snatching and taking back to heaven the church, etc. Such an event would surely be a worth while sign to mention but none of it is even hinted at.
Follow the context. In verse 30 we find...
...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...
This is the event He is discussing. His Coming. What does He say next?
...He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect...
So He sends His angels to gather (not rapture) His elect. He makes no mention of these people being "caught up" into clouds to meet Him on his way down. The word, Harpazo, is not found in this passage at all. That is a big deal. Why? Because Christ doesn't Harpazo anybody, God does (1 Thes 4:14). But, I digress. What's next?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
What "all these things" will take place?" The context suggests at a minimum His return and gathering and likely all the stuff going all the way back to the Abomination of Desolation and GT, but for sure His return and gathering, right? Now please pay close attention to verse 36.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]“But of that day and hour no one knows...
What is He talking about here? What does the "day and hour" refer to? Doesn't say, week, month, season, year - just day or hour. My educated guess is this goes back to His return and gathering. If you disagree what would be your guess? What's next?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be...
This is pretty clear. The Coming of the Son of Man event will be like the Days of Noah and nobody knows the day or hour of His Return and Gathering (Two events). He returns, He sends His angels to gather. Have we completed the 1,000 year millennial reign yet? Obviously not as He is just getting here and He's still talking about His Getting Here.
What happens next is key to the whole passage and proves my position. The "THEY" mentioned next are the wicked. The wicked are yucking it up and having a good time, clueless on what is about to happen.
...they (wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them (wicked) all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Did you see that? The wicked are "swept" or taken away (just like in the days of Noah) when the Son of Man comes. To emphasis this point, Jesus uses two more examples of the same event in the very next verse.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken (wicked) and the other left. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken (wicked) and the other left.
There it is. The one man taken and the one woman taken are the wicked. The other two are left to be "gathered" into the barn. To prove we are still talking about Christ's return and not a period after 1,000 years the passage is book ended by this.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
Still talking about THE RETURN OF CHRIST. The wicked are taken, the righteous are left to be "gathered" into the Barn/Kingdom. This totally agrees with Matthew 13. Matthew of course having written both passages isn't going to disagree with himself.
Christ returns to Israel to reign. The wicked have to be removed from the Land where He is to reign. So, they have to go and we see that here. See if you can pick up the order.
...at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Who is being gathered first? The tares aka wicked. We see the same order again.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend (wicked), and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
See that? Wicked are being removed from the Kingdom. And we see it again here.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [SUP]50 [/SUP]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
END OF THE AGE is when Christ returns which is also the LAST DAY. So you have 3 times in Mat 13 where the wicked are separated out from the just and the same order is repeated in Mat 24 with three additional examples; Noah, Men in Field, Women at mill.
ALL OF THIS HAPPENS AT HIS RETURN, NOT AFTER HIS REIGN ON EARTH. IT IS BEFORE HIS REIGN ON EARTH STARTS.
I'm sorry, I know these facts throw a huge wrench into the Pre-Trib Rapture (HARPAZO) snatching doctrine because when Christ returns, He returns to reign on the earth, to rid His Kingdom and throne of the wicked and to gather His Chosen to Him to reign with Him. Thus Christ completely answered the original question...
And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
The End of the Age we are in happens when Christ returns and starts His reign. We then enter a brand new age. Through all the Olivet Christ is silent about any rapture cloud-only return, snatching and taking back to heaven the church, etc. Such an event would surely be a worth while sign to mention but none of it is even hinted at.
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Who reigns on earth?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
ANSWER:
FOUR LIVING CREATURES
TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
ANSWER:
FOUR LIVING CREATURES
TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS
P
Uh, painted yourself into a corner...again.
You are trying ,in the name of "wicked taken first" falsehood ,to tell me that the wicked are "taken someplace" (LOF?) DURING THE GT and us powerhouses deal with AC.,then are raptured postrib,but you use a "pretrib example",noah to do this?
Do you ever consider the possibility of not taking the obvious off the table?
Burning and gnashing of teeth is not THE LAKE OF FIRE/GNASHING OF TEETH of post millinea?
It never dawned on me why you spin the disciple's 3 questions of mat 24 untill now.
NOW I KNOW WHY. ..............in your spin of scripture,it NEEDS TO BE ONLY 2.
"............end of the world" THAT WAS THEIR LAST (3rd) QUESTION!!!!!!!!!,and DEFINES Jesus' reference to the LOF post millenia!!!
Amazing story....that Noah story. The righteous are TAKEN first into the ark,the wicked "taken" 2nd (destroyed),then 3rd,the RIGHTEOUS RETURN TO EARTH.
Pretrib rapture,GT,then the righteous return postrib/postflood
You did all this mess in the name of MAKING THE "wicked taken 1st" falsehood transpose onto the "one taken...one left" reference.
P
ANSWER:
FOUR LIVING CREATURES
TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS
AND THE "US'INS",THE CHURCH
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them
FOUR LIVING CREATURES
TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS
AND THE "US'INS",THE CHURCH
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them
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What are you talking about?? Where do I say that the wicked are removed DURING THE TRIB? The sequence I showed was the wicked are taken by Christ's angels when He returns. The wicked are removed from the expanded Israel. No pre-trib Noah.
Time of Sorrows
Man of Sin appears
Abomination of Desolation
Satan's Great Tribulation
God's Wrath/Vengeance
Appearance of Christ
Return of Christ
Wicked Removed from Israel
Righteous gathered
"Making the wicked taken 1st?" I did no such thing. Christ tells us twice that the wicked are taken first. All things that offend are removed from "the Holy Land" Israel where He will reign from. I merely repeat his teachings because some have a hard time comprehending.
Time of Sorrows
Man of Sin appears
Abomination of Desolation
Satan's Great Tribulation
God's Wrath/Vengeance
Appearance of Christ
Return of Christ
Wicked Removed from Israel
Righteous gathered
"Making the wicked taken 1st?" I did no such thing. Christ tells us twice that the wicked are taken first. All things that offend are removed from "the Holy Land" Israel where He will reign from. I merely repeat his teachings because some have a hard time comprehending.