When does the rapture occur?

[VCO]

WHO ARE THE 24 ELDERS and WHO DO THEY REPRESENT?

Revelation 4:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

The 24 Elders (4:4)

4:4. Around the principal throne were 24 lesser thrones on which were seated... 24 elders. They were dressed in white and were wearing crowns of gold on their heads. The crowns were similar to those given victors in Greek games (stephanos), in contrast with the crown of a sovereign ruler (diadēma, "diadem"). The crowns seem to indicate that the elders had been judged and rewarded.
There has been much speculation on the identity of the elders. The two major views are (1) that they represent the church raptured prior to this time and rewarded in heaven, or (2) that they are angels who have been given large responsibilities. The number 24 is the number of representation, illustrated in the fact that in the Law of Moses there were 24 orders of the priesthood. (For further discussion of the identity of the 24 elders see the comments on 5:8-10.)

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

In verses 4 and 5, John paints a picture of worship. The first picture is twenty-four elders sitting on thrones around God. There are many interpretations of this picture, ranging from the elders as a special class of angels to the elders as the church before God.For those who make a case that these elders represent the church, John’s description, then, is of the redeemed—they have white robes (19:8), they are wearing crowns (James 1:12), and they reign with God (2 Timothy 2:12).

Layman's Bible Commentary - Layman's Bible Commentary – Volume 12: Hebrews thru Revelation.

John also saw around the throne twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones he saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. The identity of the twenty-four elders has been much debated. While some see them as an order of angelic beings, it seems best to view them as human representatives of the church. Several lines of evidence point to that conclusion.
First, the reference to the twenty-four thrones on which the twenty-four elders sat indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels sit on thrones, nor are they pictured ruling or reigning. Their role is to serve as "ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation" (Heb. 1:14; cf. Matt. 18:10). The church, on the other hand, is repeatedly promised a co-regency with Christ (2:26-27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4; Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Tim. 2:12).


Presbuteroi (elders) is never used in Scripture to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general, and the rulers of both Israel and the church. There is no indisputable use of presbuteroi outside of Revelation to refer to angels. (Some believe that "elders" in Isaiah 24:23 refers to angels, but it could as well refer to humans.) Further, "elder" would be an inappropriate term to describe angels, who do not age.


While angels do appear in white (e.g., John 20:12; Acts 1:10), white garments more commonly are the dress of believers. That is particularly true in the immediate context of Revelation. Christ promised the believers at Sardis that they would "be clothed in white garments" (3:5). He advised the apostate Laodiceans to "buy from Me... white garments so that you may clothe yourself" (3:18). At the marriage supper of the Lamb, His bride will "clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean" (19:8). White garments symbolize Christ's righteousness imputed to believers at salvation.


That the elders wore golden crowns on their heads provides further evidence that they were humans. Crowns are never promised in Scripture to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. Stephanos (crown) is the victor's crown, worn by those who successfully endured the trial, those who competed and won the victory. Christ promised such a crown to the loyal believers at Smyrna: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" (2:10). "Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things," wrote Paul. "They then do it to receive a perishable wreath [stephanos], but we an imperishable" (1 Cor. 9:25). He wrote of that imperishable crown again in 2 Timothy 4:8: "In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing." James wrote of "the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12), and Peter of "the unfading crown of glory" (1 Pet. 5:4). Holy angels do not personally struggle with and triumph over sin; thus, the overcomer's crown, the crown of those who successfully ran the race and finished victorious, would not be appropriate for them.


Assuming, then, that the twenty-four elders are humans, the question remains as to which humans they represent. First, it should be noted that the number twenty-four is used in Scripture to speak of completion and representation. There were twenty-four officers of the sanctuary representing the twenty-four courses of the Levitical priests (1 Chron. 24:4-5, 7-18), as well as twenty-four divisions of singers in the temple (1 Chron. 25). Whoever the twenty-four elders are, then, they likely represent a larger group.


Some believe the elders represent Israel. But while individual Jews have been and will continue to be redeemed throughout history, at the time of this vision the nation as a whole had not yet been redeemed. Their national judgment and salvation (Rom. 11:26) comes during the Tribulation (chaps. 6-19), largely as a result of the evangelistic efforts of the 144,000 (introduced in chap. 7). When the twenty-four elders are first introduced, those events are yet to take place.
Similarly, the elders cannot be Tribulation saints, since they too had not yet been converted. The elders are already in heaven when the Tribulation saints arrive. Revelation 7:11-14 describes the scene:

And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
​

The elders are also seen in heaven when other momentous events of the Tribulation take place, such as when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdom of Christ (11:15-18), when the 144,000 gather on Mount Zion (14:1-3), and when God destroys the Babylonian economic and religious system (19:1-4).

Some would split the twenty-four elders into two groups of twelve, one representing the church and the other Israel. There is no compelling exegetical reason, however, for so dividing them. In all their appearances in Revelation they appear as a unified group of twenty-four, never as two groups of twelve.


It is unlikely, then, that the twenty-four elders are angels, or that they represent Israel, the Tribulation saints, or a combination of Israel and the church. That leaves one most acceptable possibility, that they represent the raptured, glorified, coronated church, which sings the song of redemption (5:8-10). They have their crowns and live in the place prepared for them, where they have gone to be with Jesus (cf. John 14:1-4).

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Revelation 1-11.

There has been a great deal of speculation as to who these elders are. . . .

Seriously, . . .elders were appointed in the early churches to rule and to represent the entire church (see Titus 1:5). Their role was clearly understood by the people in John's day. These twenty-four elders stand for the total church from Pentecost to the Rapture. Therefore, I can say categorically and dogmatically that here is the church in heaven.

"White raiment" is the righteousness of Christ (see 2Cor. 5:21).


"Crowns of gold" indicates that the church will rule with Christ (see 1Cor. 6:3). Crowns are also given as rewards (see 2Tim. 4:8; James 1:12; 1Pet. 5:4) when the bema judgment, the judgment seat of Christ, takes place.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

 

[PlainWord]

May God bless each of you!! We have spirited debates but I hope everyone knows that I love each of my brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our disagreements.

 

[popeye]

May God bless each of you!! We have spirited debates but I hope everyone knows that I love each of my brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our disagreements.

Thanks PW

I am quite sure you are a Godly and wonderful person. A true christian and good to see you can keep your composure and priorities.
you set a good example sir.

Love you too my friend and God bless you!!!!

 

[PlainWord]

Thanks PW

I am quite sure you are a Godly and wonderful person. A true christian and good to see you can keep your composure and priorities.
you set a good example sir.

Love you too my friend and God bless you!!!!

Thanks Popeye, feelings are mutual my friends. Now what's this nonsense about the Rapture, LOL?

 

[mwc68]

There is no Rapture! This theory makes Jesus a liar when he said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, i will raise on the last day". our Lord did not say rapture, he said Last Day. He also says to endure to the end, not until a rapture, the End! The rapture suggests 3 comings. That is absurd since Jesus is coming back in the second coming at the end of time. The tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. Why would it be shortened if they are out of here? Rapture theory makes no sense and is another tool Satan has used to deceive millions into thinking they are just going to fly away.

 

[VCO]

There is no Rapture! This theory makes Jesus a liar when he said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, i will raise on the last day". our Lord did not say rapture, he said Last Day. He also says to endure to the end, not until a rapture, the End! The rapture suggests 3 comings. That is absurd since Jesus is coming back in the second coming at the end of time. The tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. Why would it be shortened if they are out of here? Rapture theory makes no sense and is another tool Satan has used to deceive millions into thinking they are just going to fly away.

You missed a VERY IMPORTANT FACT, that is a reference to the LAST DAY of the CHURCH AGE. The very next day is NOT the Church Age, but the FIRST DAY of the the 70th WEEK OF DANIEL.

HENCE, the First Covenant resumes, and the Last shall be First to be completed, and the First shall be Last.


Matthew 19:29-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] And everyone who has left houses, brothers or sisters, father or mother, children, or fields because of My name will receive 100 times more and will inherit eternal life.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Matthew 20:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “So the last will be first, and the first last.”


An appearing does not count as a COMING, ONLY WHEN HIS FEET TOUCH THE GROUND is it a COMING. Because HIS appearing to PAUL on the Damascus Road, when his name was SAUL, did not count as a COMING either.

 

[GaryA]

You missed a VERY IMPORTANT FACT, that is a reference to the LAST DAY of the CHURCH AGE. The very next day is NOT the Church Age, but the FIRST DAY of the the 70th WEEK OF DANIEL.

HENCE, the First Covenant resumes, and the Last shall be First to be completed, and the First shall be Last.


Matthew 19:29-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] And everyone who has left houses, brothers or sisters, father or mother, children, or fields because of My name will receive 100 times more and will inherit eternal life.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Matthew 20:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “So the last will be first, and the first last.”


An appearing does not count as a COMING, ONLY WHEN HIS FEET TOUCH THE GROUND is it a COMING. Because HIS appearing to PAUL on the Damascus Road, when his name was SAUL, did not count as a COMING either.

No.




You have missed some very important facts:

~ The 70th week of Daniel is history.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. All 70 weeks "came and went" unbroken.

~ There is no 7-year treaty between an / any / some / the antichrist and Israel.

Daniel 9:

[SUP]27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The word 'he' in this verse ( all three ) is referring to Christ, not an / any / some / the antichrist.

The phrase 'confirm the covenant' is referring to the confirming of an [ existing ] covenant, not the creating of a treaty.

This is referring to the crucifixion of Christ and the veil of the temple being rent in two.

This is referring to the destruction of the temple.

This is saying, in effect, that there will be no third temple --- the phrase 'until the consummation' essentially means, "until the end of all things" - and is pointing to the return of Christ ( Second Coming of Christ ).

This is talking about the post 70 A.D. aftermath.

~ The First Covenant will never resume.

Yes - God still has plans for Israel. However, the Old Covenant has been "replaced" with the New Covenant.

You are "out of context" on the Matthew verses.

~ What defines the "coming" of Christ is not based on whether His feet touch the ground; rather, it is based on the will of God, the plan of God, and the prophecy of God.

 

[GaryA]

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

This is referring to the crucifixion of Christ and the veil of the temple being rent in two.

Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[PlainWord]

You missed a VERY IMPORTANT FACT, that is a reference to the LAST DAY of the CHURCH AGE. The very next day is NOT the Church Age, but the FIRST DAY of the the 70th WEEK OF DANIEL.

Please provide the passage that states the Last Day Christ was speaking of was the Last Day of the Church Age? I don't see that qualification anywhere.

An appearing does not count as a COMING, ONLY WHEN HIS FEET TOUCH THE GROUND is it a COMING. Because HIS appearing to PAUL on the Damascus Road, when his name was SAUL, did not count as a COMING either.

An "Appearing" doesn't count as a coming??? If that's true then I suppose "Coming" doesn't count as an Appearing either, right?

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven...

So even though Christ appears here as part of His coming, He didn't really appear before He came, right? The fact is, Christ will appear in heaven and the whole world will see Him and they will see Heaven BEFORE He actually returns to earth. This is all the same event and this happens after the Great Trib.

The entire earth will see heaven open up and they will have time to run to the mountains and caves to "hide." This would not be possible if Christ just literally flashed into the clouds above upon His return. But this truth is not taught in any church, that Heaven appears and Christ is seen by all before He actually returns even though Matthew teaches this principle in plain words. Here are the order of events as told by Jesus Himself:

Mat 24:

1. The Tribulation Ends
2. The Sun will be darkened
3. The Moon will not give its light
4. The Powers of Heaven will be Shaken
5. The Sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven
6. Then the Tribes of Earth will Mourn
7. Then they will see the Son of Man Coming on "Clouds of Heaven"*
8. Then He will send His angels to "Gather" His Elect

(*Note: It is Clouds of Heaven, not Clouds of Earth)

 

[crossnote]

There is no Rapture! This theory makes Jesus a liar when he said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, i will raise on the last day". our Lord did not say rapture, he said Last Day. He also says to endure to the end, not until a rapture, the End! The rapture suggests 3 comings. That is absurd since Jesus is coming back in the second coming at the end of time. The tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. Why would it be shortened if they are out of here? Rapture theory makes no sense and is another tool Satan has used to deceive millions into thinking they are just going to fly away.

If this isn't a rapture, I don't know what is. ..

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[crossnote]

Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

Nope. That’s when antichrist breaks the covenant after 3 1/2 years.

 

[popeye]

There is no Rapture! This theory makes Jesus a liar when he said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, i will raise on the last day". our Lord did not say rapture, he said Last Day. He also says to endure to the end, not until a rapture, the End! The rapture suggests 3 comings. That is absurd since Jesus is coming back in the second coming at the end of time. The tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. Why would it be shortened if they are out of here? Rapture theory makes no sense and is another tool Satan has used to deceive millions into thinking they are just going to fly away.

He also says to endure to the end, not until a rapture, the End!

Welll that settles it,all the apostles are now disenfranchised.

 

[popeye]

There is no Rapture! This theory makes Jesus a liar when he said "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, i will raise on the last day". our Lord did not say rapture, he said Last Day. He also says to endure to the end, not until a rapture, the End! The rapture suggests 3 comings. That is absurd since Jesus is coming back in the second coming at the end of time. The tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. Why would it be shortened if they are out of here? Rapture theory makes no sense and is another tool Satan has used to deceive millions into thinking they are just going to fly away.

Rapture theory makes no sense and is another tool Satan has used to deceive millions into thinking they are just going to fly away.

Well that about covers it since postribs also believe they will 'fly away' at the end of the gt.

So,you,me and about 99% of the church follow satan huh?

 

[JesusIsAll]

You missed a VERY IMPORTANT FACT, that is a reference to the LAST DAY of the CHURCH AGE. The very next day is NOT the Church Age, but the FIRST DAY of the the 70th WEEK OF DANIEL.

Regardless, it's a very flawed exegetical technique to use any word or words in scripture to try and refute other clear scripture. This is a darling technique of cults, used to create false doctrines, which exist outside of scripture truth and harmony.

 

[Elin]

An appearing does not count as a COMING, ONLY WHEN HIS FEET TOUCH THE GROUND is it a COMING. Because
HIS appearing to PAUL on the Damascus Road, when his name was SAUL,
did not count as a COMING either.

How do you know that Jesus' feet did not touch the ground when he appeared to Paul?

Not to mention that he didn't "appear" anyway, only a voice was heard (Ac 26:13-14).

Invalid example. . .

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by VCO

You missed a VERY IMPORTANT FACT, that is a reference to the LAST DAY of the CHURCH AGE. The very next day is NOT the Church Age, but the FIRST DAY of the the 70th WEEK OF DANIEL.

Regardless, it's a very flawed exegetical technique to use any word or words in scripture to try and refute other clear scripture. This is a darling technique of cults, used to create false doctrines, which exist outside of scripture truth and harmony.

Well,,yeah but we would'nt want little speed bumps like context and sytematic theology to hinder the little darlings.

Think of it as a bible cliche extravaganza

 

[JesusIsAll]

Well,,yeah but we would'nt want little speed bumps like context and sytematic theology to hinder the little darlings.

Think of it as a bible cliche extravaganza

Most of them use this technique that involves a little scripture, then a lot of private interpretation blather, a little more scripture, or even just a few scripture words or one word, then another whole paragraph of their own blather, to try twist things and "prove" error that other clear scripture refutes. It's a pattern deceivers use, as it takes a lot of twisting, human rhetoric going on and on, to manipulate, to try and make a case the Bible doesn't say what it says. Cult leaders write whole books, the purpose of which is to try and use scripture to justify their lying doctrines. I've, on a few occasions, made deceivers mad, by posting nothing but a series of verses that put a lie to their claims, not one word of my own, just clear scripture. One person here used to call me a devil, cherry picking verses, used to get really mad at scripture that refuted the claim Jesus Christ came to get people back to the law and the Torah, doing sabbaths and feasts, etc. I was a devil, for quoting too much Paul. It was so absurd it became rather amusing. As to the rapture, simply the many teachings of imminence, of Christ coming like a thief in the night, of being prepared for a time unexpected, like Noah, Lot, on and on, many such teachings, make a rapture after the tribulation onset an impossible lie. Simple as that, really. They can do the Johnny-one-verse or word thing until the cows come hope, but whole chunks of scripture truth won't go away as a result. The Page-Down key was made for the long-winded blather pattern of the private interpreters, who make a career of twisting truth.

 

[JesusIsAll]

How do you know that Jesus' feet did not touch the ground when he appeared to Paul?

Not to mention that he didn't "appear" anyway, only a voice was heard (Ac 26:13-14).

Invalid example. . .

Of course, scripture teaches a second coming to put down rebellion and establish the millennial kingdom, but this doesn't put God in a box as to how He may appear, deal with mankind, prior to this. What manner Christ appeared to Paul is not related to His coming to the Mount of Olives.

 

[valiant]

Of course, scripture teaches a second coming to put down rebellion and establish the millennial kingdom, but this doesn't put God in a box as to how He may appear, deal with mankind, prior to this. What manner Christ appeared to Paul is not related to His coming to the Mount of Olives.

Jesus feet were on the mount of Olives around 30 AD. From then on Zech 14 came into fulfilment eschatologically. The Rapture will end all things. There will be no millennial kingdom, which is simply a misinterpretation of Rev 20 which speaks of the current age.

 

[valiant]

WHO ARE THE 24 ELDERS and WHO DO THEY REPRESENT?

Revelation 4:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

The twenty four elders work in cohesion with the four living creatures (Cherubim) before the throne. As INDIVIDUALS they speak to John. It is quite clear then that they are heavenly beings. They wear golden crowns and sit on thrones because they represent us, not because they are us. They are priestly angels offering up the prayers of God's people.