When does the rapture occur?

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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We are just continuing to discuss out Favorite subject, until Archangel calls us out
to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, in our new dwelling place:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (ESV)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

In the Roman Army of the day of CHRIST, there were three trumpet blasts used to get the entire Army moving out to a new location. The Last Trump was the THIRD TRUMP. They were the equivalent of today's verbal orders:

FALL IN!

TEN HUT!

FORWARD MARCH!

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.


SEE, continuing to discuss these things IS HIS WILL.
LOL do you see all these contradictory arguments which no one wins as 'encouraging one another'? What Paul meant is that we were to encourage each other in the thought that Jesus is coming back again (which we all believe), will raise the dead at the general resurrection, and will seize up the living saints, and transform them so that they will be with Him for ever.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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LOL do you see all these contradictory arguments which no one wins as 'encouraging one another'? What Paul meant is that we were to encourage each other in the thought that Jesus is coming back again (which we all believe), will raise the dead at the general resurrection, and will seize up the living saints, and transform them so that they will be with Him for ever.

You scoff at nearly everything, don't you?

Your English slant on HIS Eminent Calling Out of the Bride does not seem to doing much to encourage people to attend Church over there:

However, in a poll conducted by YouGov in March 2011 on behalf of the BHA, when asked the census question ‘What is your religion?’, 61% of people in England and Wales ticked a religious box (53.48% Christian and 7.22% other) while 39% ticked ‘No religion’. When the same sample was asked the follow-up question ‘Are you religious?’, only 29% of the same people said ‘Yes’ while 65% said ‘No’, meaning over half of those whom the census would count as having a religion said they were not religious.
Less than half (48%) of those who ticked ‘Christian’ said they believed that Jesus Christ was a real person who died and came back to life and was the son of God.
Asked when they had last attended a place of worship for religious reasons, most people in England and Wales (63%) had not attended in the past year: 43% of people last attended over a year ago and 20% of people had never attended. Only 9% of people reported having attended a place of worship within the last week.
https://humanism.org.uk/campaigns/religion-and-belief-some-surveys-and-statistics/


Our Church is nearly Full every week. And the last Church that I attended in California, before I moved to this smaller town in Nevada WAS OVER FULL every week with 3 Sunday Services every Sunday Morning. If you did not get there EARLY, you ended up in another room watching the Service on Closed Circuit TV.
 
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Our Church is nearly Full every week.

?? Since when did it BECOME your Church? Didn't Christ Pay for it with His Own Death on the Tree? Isnt it His Church ? How were you able to lay Claim to His Church? ? ? ? ?


 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Our Church is nearly Full every week.

?? Since when did it BECOME your Church? Didn't Christ Pay for it with His Own Death on the Tree? Isnt it His Church ? How were you able to lay Claim to His Church? ? ? ? ?



Bowhunter, there you go firing those under spined arrows, with bad fletching, and with those three blade Shick Injector broadheads again. They fly so CROOKED they never come close to hitting what you are aiming at.

YOU are not stupid, so you know I was talking about the Non-Denominational Bible Churches that I have attended regularly the past several YEARS.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I cannot believe modern men cannot think through how a scroll would be sealed seven times in Bible times. The erroneous picture above, is NOT your fault, MOST OF THE ARTISTS of today, GOT IT TOTALLY WRONG. No way would there be seven seals on ONE EDGE as pictured. The entire prophesy would have been written, and then rolled back up placing a seal between each event, if that is where the author wanted. Therefore the last event would be rolled up, and the sealed placed before any part of that last written event could be seen. Then it would be rolled some more, and another seal placed, between events, awaiting the one that has the AUTHORITY to break that seal; before readers could read that part. And so on, and so on. Therefore the DEEPEST seal in the scroll, would be the last seal; and the ONE on the outer edge would be the FIRST SEAL. Like I said it does not take a genius to figure that out, YET, most artists today picture all seven on the OUTER EDGE. This artist at least got that right, even though he was not a very good artist:

Your suggestion does not fit the clues.

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.”


Do you not see where it says, "opened one of the seals?" This implies the Lamb had a choice of seals to open meaning all seven seals were available to him. Now look at this verse which absolutely shatters your theory.

And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

If the seals were rolled up, John would have seen only one seal as the others would not be visible to him. John saw the seven seals, sorry.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Believe whatever you want, but know that you were told and warned.

Remember you Scoffed, when you find yourself left behind.

Yes, Sanctified is the same in all time periods, but there certainly ARE THREE TIME PERIODS

Old Testament Times,
Church-age Times,
and
Tribulation Period Times.

Plus you are wrong about the BIBLE NOT make that distinction:

Revelation 20:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. {THOSE are members of the ASSEMBLY THAT HE HAS BUILT, both OT Saints and Church-age Saints} Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. {THOSE are the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation Period.} They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
There are time periods which some call dispensations. I am not a dispensationalist but I do recognize unique time periods. One such set of time periods or eras could be broken down into the changes the world has or will experience.

Pre-Flood
Post Flood
Post Return of Christ when all things are made new

Another way to do it is based on God's relationship with man.

Creation to Abraham
Abraham to Christ
Christ until His Post Trib Return (Church age)

We both see an end to the Church Age. The difference in our views is you have the Church being raptured away prior to the Tribulation where I see the Church Age ending in the church falling away and/or being slaughtered during the Tribulation. You have no verse that supports your position of the Lord returning with "raptured" saints who never saw death. The passage you provided in Rev 20:4-6 supports my position, dead and resurrected saints who died during the Tribulation returning.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Keeping in mind that "mystery" in the NT is simply something that has not been revealed--a secret (Eph 3:5, 9), until now,
and not something that is difficult or impossible to understand.
Mysteries and their meanings are GIVEN, as with the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Master Taught in parables, then expounded unto His Disciples Privately, they asked Him, why us , why do we get to know these things?

'for unto you it is GIVEN to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven... same with the Haprazo.. that Mystery, thats Revealed to those who are His, Paul revealed it to the Thessalonians..........others albeit, under the direction of the prince of the power of the air, will negate it, spin it someway other than what Its suppose to mean, its timing, the Signs before it.... Mysteries that the Master Teaches you. He does because He grants the meanings of those to you.. those who are without.. they don't understand them, and true to the character of their father, the devil, they spin it, twist it, make others doubt, downright lie about it.. but they will have their reward in the end.. indeed...

" it is given unto you to KNOW the mysteries of the Kingdom''.....
Mysteries are NOT REVEALED to everybody,
In Jesus's day.. it was those Disciples whom He chose.. to 'know' those meanings..
Agreed. . .but don't you think there are mysteries (secrets) that are now revealed for all in the NT; e.g.,

the mystery of:

transformed bodies at the resurrection - 1Co 15:51,
God's will which he purposed in Christ Jesus - Eph 1:9,
Christ - Eph 3:4; Col 4:3,
administration of the mystery of Christ; i.e., now through the church the manifold wisdom of God
should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms
- Eph 3:10,
the church as the wife (bride) of Christ - Eph 5:28-32; Rev 21:9,
the gospel - Eph 6:25-26,
Christ in you, the hope of glory - Col 1:27,
Christ, the mystery of God - Col 2:2,
the faith--its deep truths - 1Tim 3:9,
godliness, the incarnation - 1Tim 3:16.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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You scoff at nearly everything, don't you?

Your English slant on HIS Eminent Calling Out of the Bride does not seem to doing much to encourage people to attend Church over there:



Our Church is nearly Full every week. And the last Church that I attended in California, before I moved to this smaller town in Nevada WAS OVER FULL every week with 3 Sunday Services every Sunday Morning. If you did not get there EARLY, you ended up in another room watching the Service on Closed Circuit TV.
Sooooo?........

My information is that Christianity is going downhill in the US fast. and that much of it is formal But I do not accuse
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


Absolutely nothing there to transpose the church and israel onto.
Absolutely nothing??? Are you certain there is absolutely nothing??? What are the "two witnesses" called???

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.


Olive Trees??? How about Romans 11?

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Lampstands??? How about Rev 1???

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

So ask yourself??? Since Christ, what two groups represent witnesses to the God of the earth? So please don't say there is absolutely NOTHING there. It sure makes a lot more sense than two fire breathing men who get killed by a Beast who crawls up from the Bottomless Pit. You've been watching too many movies my friend.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Sooooo?........

My information is that Christianity is going downhill in the US fast. and that much of it is formal But I do not accuse
You are absolutely correct. Christianity in the USA is no longer having much if influence on public opinion. The Falling Away has begun not just in the USA but everywhere it seems.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
Was just wondering, PlainWord. Do you call this thread your home page?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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You scoff at nearly everything, don't you?

Your English slant on HIS Eminent Calling Out of the Bride does not seem to doing much to encourage people to attend Church over there:



Our Church is nearly Full every week. And the last Church that I attended in California, before I moved to this smaller town in Nevada WAS OVER FULL every week with 3 Sunday Services every Sunday Morning. If you did not get there EARLY, you ended up in another room watching the Service on Closed Circuit TV.
No I don't scoff at nearly everything. But I am amused at the countless theories on details about the second coming that flood out from America. Everyone thinks everyone else is wrong. A little twisting of the Greek here, a little ignoring of the context there, a little fantasising and it is turned into an untenable theory which largely ignores the New Testament.

Further it gives the impression that God had no interest in His people through the ages. All He could talk about is the last few years of the age. Everything has to apply to the present day. Can't you see how foolish that suggestion is? No I don't suppose you can. You are caught up in untenable theories.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Your suggestion does not fit the clues.

Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.”


Do you not see where it says, "opened one of the seals?" This implies the Lamb had a choice of seals to open meaning all seven seals were available to him. Now look at this verse which absolutely shatters your theory.

And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

If the seals were rolled up, John would have seen only one seal as the others would not be visible to him. John saw the seven seals, sorry.
That refers to the Writing:

Enduring Word Commentary:

b. Written inside and on the back: This means that this scroll was unusual. It wasn't common practice to write on both sides of the scroll. This means that whatever information was on this scroll, there was a lot of it - almost more than the scroll can contain.

i. Ancient scrolls were read horizontally, not vertically. The rolls of the scroll were on the left and the right, and the writing lay in narrow columns about three inches (8 centimeters) wide, written on a substance somewhat like brown paper. The scroll was held in the left hand, and unrolled with the right; as the reading went on, the previously read portion was re-rolled. On such a typical scroll, the Book of Revelation would fill a scroll 15 feet (4.5 meters) long.
Revelation 5 - The Lion, the Lamb, and the Scroll

I just looked at that verse in SEVERAL VERSIONS, and YOU MISSED LOCATION OF THE COMA. It's location, clearly refers back to the Writing, which was on the front and the BACK side of the scroll; and NOT that the Seals were on the back. If the seals were on the Back of the scroll, you would have a major misunderstanding. The Scroll has no BACK it is round, and even if you wanted to call the OUTSIDE after it was rolled up the Back, the Coma would belong ahead of the word and and NOT after the word back. Therefore back refers to the writing and NOT the seals.

ALL OF THESE Versions are worded almost IDENTICAL WORD FOR WORD, and all place the coma after the word BACK:

Revelation 5:1 (NKJV) (and also: KJV, ASV, NASB, HCSB, ESV, NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

NOW LOOK at the Versions that had a slightly different wording for Clarification:

Revelation 5:1 (ISV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne a scroll written on the inside and on the outside. It was sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:1 (YLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw upon the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne a scroll, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;

Revelation 5:1 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who sits on the throne. It had writing both on the inside and on the outside. It was sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:1 (NJB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I saw that in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne there was a scroll that was written on back and front and was sealed with seven seals.

Revelation 5:1 (BBE)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw in the right hand of him who was seated on the high seat, a book with writing inside it and on the back, shut with seven stamps of wax.

Revelation 5:1 (NLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. There was writing on the inside and the outside of the scroll, and it was sealed with seven seals.


NOW look at the same Scroll being described by Ezekiel:

The scroll John saw in God's hand is the title deed to the earth, which He will give to Christ. Unlike other such deeds, however, it does not record the descriptive detail of what Christ will inherit, but rather how He will regain His rightful inheritance. He will do so by means of the divine judgments about to be poured out on the earth (6:1ff.). While the scroll is a scroll of doom and judgment, it is also a scroll of redemption. It tells how Christ will redeem the world from the usurper, Satan, and those men and demons who have collaborated with him. Ezekiel describes this same scroll in his vision of heaven:

"Then I looked, and behold, a hand was extended to me; and lo, a scroll was in it. When He spread it out before me, it was written on the front and back, and written on it were lamentations, mourning and woe" (Ezek. 2:9-10).


The chapter divides naturally into three sections: the search for the worthy one, the selection of the worthy one, and the song of the worthy one.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Revelation 1-11.
The song opens with a reaffirmation that Christ is worthy... to take the book and to break its seals. He is worthy because He is the Lamb, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and the King of kings and Lord of lords. To break the book's seals means to enact the judgments written in it. Then, further reinforcing Christ's worthiness, the song continues, for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. That phrase elaborates on the statement of verse 6 that the Lamb had been slain, explaining the significance of His death. It was Christ's substitutionary, sacrificial death that purchased for God... men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Purchased is from agorazō, a rich New Testament word for redemption that pictures slaves purchased in the marketplace and then set free. At the cross, the Lord Jesus Christ paid the purchase price (His own blood; 1 Pet. 1:18-19) to redeem men from every tribe (descent) and tongue (language) and people (race) and nation (culture) from the slave market of sin (cf. 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; Gal. 3:13). Those four terms appear together also in Revelation 7:9; 11:9; 13:7; and 14:6 and encompass all of humanity.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Revelation 1-11.
I will have to admit that the Bible is not specific as to the LOCATION of the Seven Seals, but only mentions there are SEVEN of them, and ONLY CHRIST is worthy to open each one of them. Seven on outside would be the ROMAN way to seal a DEED and such a Document by Roman LAW had to have seven Seals. "When a scroll was finished, it was fastened with strings and the strings were sealed with wax at the knots." BUT, Roman Scrolls were a single roled up piece of parchment, and NOT a two sided Hebrew style of Scroll:




Now in this NEXT picture, I find the Artist's placement of the Seals on the Scroll, interesting. It would be another way to be sure that only one section or Column could be read at a time:



Now there is a placement of the seals that I never thought of. All seven can be seen and YET you can open and read each segment or column one at a time. Will we know for sure this side of heaven, where the seals were located on the Scroll that John SAW? NO, John did not give us that information; however I still lean towards the idea that they were placed so that as each seal was broken, then prophecies therein HAPPEN.

Why Do I believe that? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS:

Revelation 6:1-17 (RSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say, as with a voice of thunder, "Come!"
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And I saw
, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!"
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And out came another horse, bright red; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that men should slay one another; and he was given a great sword.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and its rider had a balance in his hand;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm oil and wine!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!"
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whenhe opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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VCO,

You spent a lot of time on the scroll. Interesting stuff but nothing conclusive can be drawn. What is conclusive is the Tribulation is absolutely over by the time of the 6th seal. There can be no doubt about that given the comparison of the Sixth Seal to Mat 24:29-31.

Remember, Revelation isn't the "Revealing of the Tribulation," it is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ." Jesus returns as an avenging victorious warrior and king. He destroys His enemies, those who have been harming (and killing) His people (Jews and Christians alike).

If we look at the world today (assuming we are in the end times) what religious group appears most likely poised to have the desire and means to harm God's People? Israel is like an island in the "sea" of Muslims. So, if the Islamic world is Babylon (which I am completely convinced) then it would appear obvious that Christ defeats the Islamic world when He returns. For Israel to finally possess all the Land they were given, and finally live in peace as foretold, the Islamic world needs to go away.

We know with absolute certainty that the Bowls are God's Wrath and they are "paying back" Babylon. Thus the Tribulation must be over before all of the bowls are poured. So, what about the Trumpets?

Trumpet 5 is clearly aimed at "those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads" so clearly these are not God's People being targeted. Further, at Trumpet 5 we are told that these "locusts" are not to harm the "grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree." So, grass, green thing and tree must be good. Nobody is killed at Trumpet 5 so this seems like a warning to those who are doing bad before punishment is handed out. God usually givens man a warning and time to repent and turn their ways before destruction.

Trumpet 6 kills 1/3 of the world. Rev 9:20-21 indicates that this plague is divine punishment as you have idol worship being discussed and the failure to repent being discussed. You have people worshiping demons and you have fire, smoke and brimstone, which is indicative of divine punishment. So the question begs, who are the 1/3 of the world that gets killed? Are they random or targeted? We know the angels doing the killing are at the River Euphrates which is of course at the heart of the Islamic world.

So Trump 5 & 6 are also after the Tribulation is over because the target of both is the Islamic world. So, what of Trumpets 1-4? Are they before or after the Tribulation?
 
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P

popeye

Guest
LOL do you see all these contradictory arguments which no one wins as 'encouraging one another'? What Paul meant is that we were to encourage each other in the thought that Jesus is coming back again (which we all believe), will raise the dead at the general resurrection, and will seize up the living saints, and transform them so that they will be with Him for ever.
............in heaven with Jesus at the union of the groom/bride,unless Jesus was lying.

Your model fits pretrib perfectly.
 
P

popeye

Guest
Two things

The "scroll" refered to in rev 5 is actually a sheet or document. BiblioN is a small scroll,such as you would see if a large or long list,maybe 3 ft long were rolled up into a cylinder and sealed.
Thus the whole thing could have been "unrolled at once revealing seven very large seals,UNDER WHICH, were the items to be released.
(we could all be kinda off on this) But the idea is not so much the scroll or seals but that it marks and documents the future release BY HEAVEN,NOT SATAN, of all hell breaking loose on the planet.

2) the fact that these horrific events are unleashed BY HEAVEN,UPON MAN AND THE PLANET go against the idea of a trib/wrath delineation,prompting the misnomer that God's wrath is not anywhere to be found in the beginning of the 7 yr trib.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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VCO said:
AND in ROM.11:25 PAUL makes a distinction between ISRAEL and Gentile Christians:

Romans 11:25-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And this will be My covenant with them when I take away their sins.
What you fail to see is that the fullness of the Gentiles COMPLETES the all Israel. For all Israel includes converted Gentiles. That is what Rom 11.12 -24 was all about. Israel is made up of all who truly believe in the Messiah of Israel, whether Jews or Gentile proselytes..
Does all Israel also include all in Judaism?
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Your view is plausible but so are other views. Do you also see all of Dan 11 and 12 as being completed? If not, what's next in Daniel?
I currently believe that:

~ Daniel 11:1-33 is past.

~ Daniel 11:34-39 is a mixture of past, present, and future.

~ Daniel 11:40-45 is future.

~ Daniel 12:1-3 is future.

~ Daniel 12:4-13 is general explanation.

"However, I am still studying..." ;)

:)