When Has God Gathered After He Scattered Without Any Repentance?

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pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#41
How so? The text does say the prophecy has to do with the Jews and Jerusalem and the Messiah’s advent and His death, and the destruction of the city and the sanctuary which all was accomplished by 70 AD.
Jesus is mankind's goel, the restorer, the redeemer, he will restore all that was lost. Is that not our hope?
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#42
Because God could not have gathered them back unless they first repented.

The Lord is merciful, yes, but when He establishes terms and conditions, He expects us to confirm to them, not them to us.

What can we possibly bring to His bargaining table, except a lost soul? We got nuthin else 🤐
Where exactly does it say only if they repent?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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#43
Where exactly does it say only if they repent?
Hey Pottersclay,

He may be referring to somewhere else, but to try to answer for him, I think he may be referring to the following passages:


Deuteronomy 30:1-4
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:



2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Romans 11:21-24 (the entire chapter, but specifically these verses)
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?



These passages are what comes to mind so far.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
5,373
1,497
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#44
Hey Pottersclay,

He may be referring to somewhere else, but to try to answer for him, I think he may be referring to the following passages:


Deuteronomy 30:1-4
30 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:


2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Romans 11:21-24 (the entire chapter, but specifically these verses)
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


These passages are what comes to mind so far.
I agree with these scriptures totally thanks brother. And this is what and where I thought one got the ideal of repentance too.
To be sure repentance is needed to be back in the lord's good graces.
Least you repent you may not enter the kingdom...... absolutely 😄.

The gathering back together is a sign of the times. It is a fulfillment of prophecy .
Jesus said when you see these things happen look up for your redemption draws near.
The scattering and gathering back has nothing to do with repentance but fulfillment of prophecy.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#45
God's a Universalist? He's going to just forget His demands of repentance and just bring everyone into the heavenly promised land like it's being suggested He did with "Israel" in 1948?
God deals with all of us to bring us into the place of repentance. Now you won't like this any more than you like to be called anti-semite but God has always dealt with Israel as a nation. His covenant with them is as a nation. In order to deal with them as a nation He first has to gather them as a nation. The time will come when ALL Jews return to their homeland.

Incidentally there is no such thing as a nation except by the will of God.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#46
Your problem is with scripture and not me.

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

I did not say that God abandoned Israel... In fact he has not.

Only by Christ do we enter in. Everyone needs Christ.
What I said was jesus first went to the jews only....this mission will be accomplished in his second coming....Israel will be redeemed....saved.
Israel is the CHURCH - because "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed..." People who call Jesus "son of a whore" and "the great imposter" do NOT belong to Christ; an easily understood concept by those who are drunk on the KoolAid of Zionist bulldookey.

BTW, many commentators agree that the 70th week was fulfilled way back in antiquity by Christ, not Antichrist, so I'm not sure why you posted the passage...a passage which clearly shows the destruction of Israel with no promise of restoration. In fact, God warned the Ephesus church that if they didn't get their act together, He would come and do the same thing to them.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#47
Jesus is mankind's goel, the restorer, the redeemer, he will restore all that was lost. Is that not our hope?
God is a God of "restoration", you say? OK, let's examine that:

1st century Israel had a temple - Modern Israel has nothing.
1st century Israel had an Intercessory Priesthood - Modern Israel has nothing.
1st century Israel had a sacrificial economy - Modern Israel has nothing.
1st century Israel had borders covering thousands of square miles - Modern Israel is an almost invisible.
1st century Israel had many devout, sincere Jews who were interested in truth - Modern Israel??? Totally secular!!!

You really think if Almighty God intended to "restore" Israel, that's the best that He could do? :sneaky:
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#48
Where exactly does it say only if they repent?
Look, we all know Solomon's prayer. We all know God never gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for disobedience without them first having repented...so, why are you acting as if it is the opposition who needs to bear the burden of proof?

IT IS YOU GUYS WHO NEED TO SHOW FROM SCRIPTURE A PRECEDENT SETTING EXAMPLE THAT SUBSTANTIATES YOUR POSITION, NOT US. WE ALREADY HAVE PRECEDENT.

But, since you know you can't, you have no choice but to try and spin it around...that dog won't hunt, friend :)
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#49
God deals with all of us to bring us into the place of repentance. Now you won't like this any more than you like to be called anti-semite but God has always dealt with Israel as a nation. His covenant with them is as a nation. In order to deal with them as a nation He first has to gather them as a nation. The time will come when ALL Jews return to their homeland.

Incidentally there is no such thing as a nation except by the will of God.
Yes, God dealt with Israel as a nation until He was done dealing with them.

The 12 tribes were scattered to the wind and lost, were they not? Are they not still lost? That's why the Arabs moved in and took over the land, and built the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, right?

Israel is the church now, and is why WE enjoy the promises made to the fathers.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#50
Yes, God dealt with Israel as a nation until He was done dealing with them.

The 12 tribes were scattered to the wind and lost, were they not? Are they not still lost? That's why the Arabs moved in and took over the land, and built the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, right?

Israel is the church now, and is why WE enjoy the promises made to the fathers.
People can soon find the Jews when they want to insult them or persecute them or pack them off to death camps to be hideously murdered, Hitler knew who they were.

Who but a madman in Nazi occupied Europe would pretend to be a Jew who was not a Jew?

It was these same Jews along with those who were persecuted by the Russians who went to dwell in Israel after the ww2

As for Israel being finished you can read the prophets who say "In the last days" Israel will be the greatest nation and Jerusalem the greatest capital and that nations will flock to learn the paths of the God of Jacob.

In fact whereas every prophet foretells Israel's fall from grace, which we all know about and have read in our history books, these same prophets speak about their restoration to God's favour. As Paul also outlines in Romans 11.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#51
Here is something that stares all christians right in the face but yet don't consider it.

Jesus christ our savior the promised Messiah.........a jew.
The 12 apostles.....all jews
Paul sent to the gentiles.....high ranking jew.
The titles of Jesus ....high priest....lamb of God.....son of david...the name above all names..... redeemer, mighty God, ......prince of peace..ect......only found in hebrew literature ( scriptures).
Jesus fulfillment of prophecy......only found in hebrew scripture.
Born in Bethlehem......found in Israel.
Jesus only speaking and doing that of a known hebrew God.
And so much more......

All of this to teach a person to become a christian.....think about it.
But you say God is done with the jews? When Christianity is rooted in Judaism?
We are grafted into Judaism the jews are not grafted into Christianity.

Abraham is not our blood...but by God's grace we are grafted in ..(adopted) into Judaism.
We serve the same hebrew God.....follow the same hebrew commandments. And we're redeemed by a hebrew Messiah. And yet God is done with the jew? The nation he created, the people he first spoke to.
Who he has kept from there birth untill now. Who's very Messiah wept over?

The 144 thousand in the book of revelation are from the tribes of israel.....are you from a tribe.
The same tribes that are found in the old testament.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#52
People can soon find the Jews when they want to insult them or persecute them or pack them off to death camps to be hideously murdered, Hitler knew who they were.

Who but a madman in Nazi occupied Europe would pretend to be a Jew who was not a Jew?
Whether those in Israel are true descendants of Abraham is neither here nor there...what matters is the church is now "Israel", and we can't ignore the Biblical evidence for that, such as when Paul calls the church in Galatia "the Israel of God" who "walk by this rule" of the new creature in Christ and are among those who "are not all Israel that are of Israel".
It was these same Jews along with those who were persecuted by the Russians who went to dwell in Israel after the ww2

As for Israel being finished you can read the prophets who say "In the last days" Israel will be the greatest nation and Jerusalem the greatest capital and that nations will flock to learn the paths of the God of Jacob.
Yes, that is true, but "Israel" refers to the church, not those who do not belong to Christ.
In fact whereas every prophet foretells Israel's fall from grace, which we all know about and have read in our history books, these same prophets speak about their restoration to God's favour. As Paul also outlines in Romans 11.
Romans 11 has nothing to do with Literal Israel's return to greatness...it's simply God's reassurance to individuals that if they accept Jesus, they too can partake of the promises that now belong to the church.

The "time of the Gentiles" refers to the pagan, heathen, "gentile" Roman Catholic Church which persecuted "Spiritual Israel" - Christianity - for the prophesied 1,260 days, 42 months, time/times/half a time, 3 1/2 years, etc....all of which are symbolic expressions of the same time period: the 1,260 years reign of the papacy from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. when it recieved a deadly wound as the Second Beast was arising.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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#53
Whether those in Israel are true descendants of Abraham is neither here nor there...what matters is the church is now "Israel", and we can't ignore the Biblical evidence for that, such as when Paul calls the church in Galatia "the Israel of God" who "walk by this rule" of the new creature in Christ and are among those who "are not all Israel that are of Israel".
Yes, that is true, but "Israel" refers to the church, not those who do not belong to Christ.
Romans 11 has nothing to do with Literal Israel's return to greatness...it's simply God's reassurance to individuals that if they accept Jesus, they too can partake of the promises that now belong to the church.

The "time of the Gentiles" refers to the pagan, heathen, "gentile" Roman Catholic Church which persecuted "Spiritual Israel" - Christianity - for the prophesied 1,260 days, 42 months, time/times/half a time, 3 1/2 years, etc....all of which are symbolic expressions of the same time period: the 1,260 years reign of the papacy from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. when it recieved a deadly wound as the Second Beast was arising.
Well you had said that there were no Jews, no Israel, but now we see that there is.

So we have the church to whom many and great prophecies are made, we are very confident that God will keep His good promise to us. And we have the nations and among the nations Israel.

What distinguishes then Israel from all the other nations?

What distinguishes them is the fact that they also have promises made to them by God which have never yet come to pass. They are different promises to those made to the church. We are promised heaven, Jesus has gone away to prepare a place for us and He has promised to come and take us to be with Him forever where He is.

But the Jews are promised the ends of the earth as their inheritance. My friend what makes you think that God will renege on His promise to them? if He did [which He won't] why might He not also renege on His promise to us? after all the church has not lived up to all the purpose that God intended for us, any more than the Jews did.

You can't believe 1200 years of Roman Catholicism is what God intended for His church.

That Paul's doctrine in Romans 9-11 concerns natural Israel and not the church is easily proved.
 

Evmur

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#55
Look at Micah 4. what Israel is to expect in the last days

It shall come to pass in the last days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest mountain and shall be raised up above the hills and peoples shall flow to it and many nations shall come and say
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us His ways and we may walk in His paths"
For out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between many peoples and shall decide for strong nations afar off
and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks
nation shall not lift up sword against nation neither shall they learn war anymore
but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

This prophecy cannot be for the church because Jesus told us that in the last days we are to expect persecution, distress of nations, famine and disaster. And nation will raise up sword against nation.
 

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
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#56
Thanks. But, if God required repentance before gathering the people back but none was accomplished, the people who now occupy the OT promised land CAN’T be “Israel” is my point.
According to Bible prophecy they are, not all of them, but some of them.

Proof is in chapters like Revelation 11, Zechariah 14 and many others. Where Jerusalem is center stage in Bible prophecy, end time events and there are Jews there.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#57
The inspired words of the prophet Solomon declare God would always listen from heaven for the repentant cries of His scattered people and bring them back to the land after scattering them for disobedience.

You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single instance where God gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for disobedience without them first having repented. His promises of deliverance regarding the Babylonian captivity are not an exception -- we know for a fact the Babylonian captivity not only permanently cured Israel of their idolatry, but led to the institution of hundreds of (anti-idolatry) laws meant to keep the people from ever falling under the spell of idolatry again. These laws, unfortunately, eventually became for the people the focus and the means for obtaining salvation rather than the representative lamb offered morning and evening which pointed to the Messiah.

ISRAEL HAS NEVER REPENTED OF KILLING JESUS CHRIST.

So, why do Christians disregard God's own divinely established principle for "scattering and gathering" and insist He had a hand in the events of 1948 when it can be shown that the occult U.N., the occult U.S. "Deep State", and the occult Papacy were behind them? Their disregard for this divine principle has led them to wrongly attribute Biblical promises to those who today call Jesus "son of a whore" and "the great imposter" rather than to whom God's promises pertain in our day: the Church, which is "Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise" because it is the Church which belongs to Christ, not impenitent pseudo-Jewish descendants of the pagan Khazarian Empire who don't have a drop of Semitic blood in them.
Recently, a member said Eze.36, which says God will gather his people to their own land (where they will be safe and fruitful), doesn't apply to gentile believers, but our safety and fruitfulness is in Jesus.

People who don't see this don't know our Lord very well, if at all.
 

Kolistus

Well-known member
Feb 3, 2020
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#58
1948 was no regathering (Ezekiel 35 & 36 explain who those currently running the land are). The true regathering must still occur as prophesied, but only when the original people turn back to Almighty with all their hearts. And scripture shows that the regathering event and the resurrection event are the same events.
How can Bible prophecy be fulfilled if there are no Jews in Jerusalem? It is impossible.

They need to be unsaved Jews as well, once again, so that prophecy can be fulfilled.

They will go with the man of sin, and turn to God and Jesus will return to the mount of olives and help them escape, how can He do that if no Jews are present? Zechariah 14
 
Aug 3, 2019
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#59
According to Bible prophecy they are, not all of them, but some of them. Proof is in chapters like Revelation 11
Revelation’s symbolism requires interpretation - “Jews” and “Israel” in Revelation refers to Christianity because they are followers of Jesus.
Zechariah 14 and many others. Where Jerusalem is center stage in Bible prophecy, end time events and there are Jews there.
Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV
[1] Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [3] Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


https://tbibl.es/19ss
God can work in people's lives before they repent.
Sure, He works to “lead thee to repentance”, after which He can fulfill His promise to gather His people after they cry out to Him for it.

God had nothing to do with 1948 - the last remaining Israelite tribe, Judah, was scattered to the four winds after 70 A.D. and since “restoration” of literal Israelites is now impossible due to both dispersion and disqualification, only SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES are recipients of the promises. :)
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#60
Revelation’s symbolism requires interpretation - “Jews” and “Israel” in Revelation refers to Christianity because they are followers of Jesus.


Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV
[1] Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [3] Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


https://tbibl.es/19ss
Sure, He works to “lead thee to repentance”, after which He can fulfill His promise to gather His people after they cry out to Him for it.

God had nothing to do with 1948 - the last remaining Israelite tribe, Judah, was scattered to the four winds after 70 A.D. and since “restoration” of literal Israelites is now impossible due to both dispersion and disqualification, only SPIRITUAL ISRAELITES are recipients of the promises. :)
With respect to Revelations the Jews spoken about have been converted

We have seen many scriptures which begin with the word " in the latter days" if the Jews are no more how can they have prophecies relating to the latter days.

This is the amazing miracle of the Jews. No other ethnic group could have survived 2, ooo years of dispersion among the nations but they have. it is PROOF that God still has a purpose and a plan for them.