Which Way Is Up?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,838
6,473
113
62
#41
A basic rule of hermeneutics is to always interpret unclear passages in light of the clear passages.

Always start with what is clear and simple, and then build upon that.
That is how humans learn, and that is the fundamental way to build a case in any field of study.

.
Very good suggestion. Thanks for responding.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,838
6,473
113
62
#42
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭


when sailors were lost at sea in darkness they would find the light of the northern star. The reason they did this is because they knew and believed it would faithfully remain the same

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1, 3‬ ‭

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 4-5‬ ‭

“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:16‬ ‭

Sheep follow the shepherd

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those of truth follow the truth

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when in doubt or need go here

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

saved by faith means you are his disciple and are learning the truth

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if it contradicts the lords teachings it’s not true or complete if it agrees with his word and helps us understand it better it true
I always enjoy your scriptural references. Thanks.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,838
6,473
113
62
#43
Yes. I believe scripture supports the doctrine once saved always saved, or eternal security.

But, I had a person present scripture that seemed to contradict this. I've had lots of people TRY to contradict this doctrine but this one person with their one scripture gave me trouble.

Until I realized, after thinking about that scripture for awhile, that his interpretation of the scripture he presented was not necessarily the best, or only interpretation.
Thanks for sharing.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,838
6,473
113
62
#45
Yes. I believe scripture supports the doctrine once saved always saved, or eternal security.

But, I had a person present scripture that seemed to contradict this. I've had lots of people TRY to contradict this doctrine but this one person with their one scripture gave me trouble.

Until I realized, after thinking about that scripture for awhile, that his interpretation of the scripture he presented was not necessarily the best, or only interpretation.
Thanks for sharing.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
113
#46
This one qualifies for me. It seems straightforward, but it also seems most do not think it so. ??? For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. (1 Pet. 3:18–20)
If you recall Christ had already prophesied that just like Jonah He would be in "the heart of the earth" (Hades) for three days and three nights. Well how did He use that time? He proclaimed (preached here should be proclaimed) to the spirits in prison (the inhabitants of Hades -- both righteous and unrighteous) His magnificent victory at the cross. He conquered sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan through His sufferings and His death. He finished His work of redemption.

So He would have also proclaimed to the righteous dead that they would no longer be in the virtual prison of Hades. He would take them to Heaven immediately after His resurrection. At the same time He would have told the unrighteous dead that they would be facing their eventual judgment at the Great White Throne.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#47
Thanks for replying. But what I'm really interested in is how you come to a determination about what you believe. Any thoughts?
I read the Bible to think about the overall situation. First, I determined that the Bible is a book about life, not a book about sin.

To understand a text, you must consider all the words in the whole Bible.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,838
6,473
113
62
#49
I read the Bible to think about the overall situation. First, I determined that the Bible is a book about life, not a book about sin.

To understand a text, you must consider all the words in the whole Bible.
Thanks for your input.
 
P

Polar

Guest
#50
If you recall Christ had already prophesied that just like Jonah He would be in "the heart of the earth" (Hades) for three days and three nights. Well how did He use that time? He proclaimed (preached here should be proclaimed) to the spirits in prison (the inhabitants of Hades -- both righteous and unrighteous) His magnificent victory at the cross. He conquered sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan through His sufferings and His death. He finished His work of redemption.

So He would have also proclaimed to the righteous dead that they would no longer be in the virtual prison of Hades. He would take them to Heaven immediately after His resurrection. At the same time He would have told the unrighteous dead that they would be facing their eventual judgment at the Great White Throne.
Thanks Nehemiah

I have always thought that to be so because that is how it reads.

However, there are heresy hunters who proclaim that anyone who thinks that is so, are 'nuts'
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#51
Very good suggestion. Thanks for responding.
Suggestions & Communication:

I wasn't really offering a "suggesting"; I was explaining a fundamental principle of learning, which is well-known, universally understood, and applied across all fields of study.

There are fundamental principles of basic learning, and of textual interpretation, which are grounded in logic, and which we all use on a daily basis. We all use these principles in our daily life, just to speak to each other - they are so ubiquitous that we use them without even realizing it. Any principles like this, which are grounded in logic, are much like gravity... they simply exist, and function, whether you ignore them or not.

People in this post have already mentioned several basic fundamentals of textual interpretation, such as carefully examining the surrounding context. All of these fundamentals are logic based, and literally cannot be ignored without all of our communication, even ordinary speech, devolving to chaos and gibberish.

These fundamentals exist, they function, and they are the things that make all communication possible.

These simple fundamentals, which you already use in your daily communication, will elucidate the majority of the biblical text.

Sometimes people argue over the methodologies to reach a solution... when they don't really want a solution.
We should be very careful and very mindful of this, especially when the solutions are simple.


Final Thoughts:
The lost world likes to point out confusion in the bible as an excuse to ignore it.
This isn't a real endeavor, it's just an excuse to disparage scripture.
Christians should do better... and should not fall into this trap.
There is no confusion.
There is no confusion if we stick to scripture for our theology, and stick to simple, rational principles to interpret it.
We simply need to apply the same contextual principles we'd apply to anything else... it's actually that simple.

.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,838
6,473
113
62
#52
Suggestions & Communication:

I wasn't really offering a "suggesting"; I was explaining a fundamental principle of learning, which is well-known, universally understood, and applied across all fields of study.

There are fundamental principles of basic learning, and of textual interpretation, which are grounded in logic, and which we all use on a daily basis. We all use these principles in our daily life, just to speak to each other - they are so ubiquitous that we use them without even realizing it. Any principles like this, which are grounded in logic, are much like gravity... they simply exist, and function, whether you ignore them or not.

People in this post have already mentioned several basic fundamentals of textual interpretation, such as carefully examining the surrounding context. All of these fundamentals are logic based, and literally cannot be ignored without all of our communication, even ordinary speech, devolving to chaos and gibberish.

These fundamentals exist, they function, and they are the things that make all communication possible.

These simple fundamentals, which you already use in your daily communication, will elucidate the majority of the biblical text.

Sometimes people argue over the methodologies to reach a solution... when they don't really want a solution.
We should be very careful and very mindful of this, especially when the solutions are simple.


Final Thoughts:
The lost world likes to point out confusion in the bible as an excuse to ignore it.
This isn't a real endeavor, it's just an excuse to disparage scripture.
Christians should do better... and should not fall into this trap.
There is no confusion.
There is no confusion if we stick to scripture for our theology, and stick to simple, rational principles to interpret it.
We simply need to apply the same contextual principles we'd apply to anything else... it's actually that simple.

.
Please forgive my poor choice of words. Thanks again for sharing.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,884
5,630
113
#53
I always enjoy your scriptural references. Thanks.
yes brother amen , it’s truly the scripture that speaks clearly to a believer

“But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.


We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:15-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the prophets are such a light for understanding see how Jesus was talking about the light of the world hat shines in darkness ?

“Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:1-2, 6-7‬ ‭

that ends like this

“The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and the gospel begins like this

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 4,

those topical studies and key phrases “the light of the world “ for instance has its roots throughout the Bible from here forward

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the light is finally revealed here in the son

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:4-5, 9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ending up eventually here

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


To follow those themes “ the light of the world “ “ the good shepherd “ the son of man “ “ the bread of life “ always is well established in the scripture like a faithful witness to the Hearer and believer
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
#54
Please forgive my poor choice of words. Thanks again for sharing.
No worries whatsoever.

And there's nothing wrong with asking questions.
But it's important to understand the actual basis for the answers you receive, and why you keep hearing some of the same things.

There are principles for basic interpretation of language.
It's good to be familiar with them.
It's not rocket science, but it does solve a lot of common problem.
: )

Have a great weekend.
.