Who are the Dead in Christ

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mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
289
64
28
#1
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Who are the dead in Christ?
Heard one preacher state these are believers who are sleeping? As in after we have passed away we sleep? (I guess in the grave: snowwhite) Until Jesus returns?
Another state: These are believers who are already in Heaven but will come back with the Lord to get their bodies?
Confusing!
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,222
3,549
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#2
Hi @mystic7, the "sleep of the soul" (the teaching that our souls are dead, unconscious, or asleep, along with our bodies during the Intermediate State between our physical death and resurrection) is considered heresy, and that, historically, by every church and denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (save one now, the Seventh Day Adventists, who are a recent addition to orthodox Christendom).

Here are some of the Biblical reasons that the church teaches what it does about soul sleep.

Matthew 17
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.
7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”
8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
Luke 16
19 There was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.
27 And he said, Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.
29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.
30 But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!
31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.
2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Philippians 1
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Revelation 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

So, if our souls really do lie interred with our bodies in the ground upon our deaths,

1. Was an exception made for Moses? (Elijah never died as you may remember, rather, has was taken to Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)

2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" and "at home with the Lord"?

3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death if our souls are not alive/conscious after we die?

4. How could the Apostle Paul think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain" (or that an unconscious death of the soul could in any way be "very much better" than living on would be)?

5. Was an exception made again for the souls of the martyrs in Heaven? If they remained with their bodies in the ground, how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord?

~Deut
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
#3
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Who are the dead in Christ?
There are no dead in Christ today. Everybody goes immediately to be with the Lord when they die now.

Before 70 A.D. you would sleep if you were saved and died. Sleeping just means you were separated from God and awaiting the resurrection so you could enter heaven and be united with Him.

There are tons of examples from Scripture but here is a few:

Acts 7: 59-60, "And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

John 11: 11, "These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Dan 12: 2, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

When Christ came back with His kingdom in 70 A.D. the resurrection occurred and all Old Testament saints and first century believers who had died were raised into heaven. All Christians who have died after this point immediately go to be with the Lord. No more sleeping. :)
 

mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
289
64
28
#4
Thankyou Bro
So I assume you ageee with the second preachers statement. These are saved souls coming back for their bodies?
I still find this difficult to fathom.
 

mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
289
64
28
#5
There are no dead in Christ today. Everybody goes immediately to be with the Lord when they die now.

Before 70 A.D. you would sleep if you were saved and died. Sleeping just means you were separated from God and awaiting the resurrection so you could enter heaven and be united with Him.

There are tons of examples from Scripture but here is a few:

Acts 7: 59-60, "And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

John 11: 11, "These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Dan 12: 2, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

When Christ came back with His kingdom in 70 A.D. the resurrection occurred and all Old Testament saints and first century believers who had died were raised into heaven. All Christians who have died after this point immediately go to be with the Lord. No more sleeping. :)
Thankyou Bo. I found it difficult to accept the sleeping beauty theory for today as a believer but who are the dead in Chrsit that will be raised first at the time of "Rapture"
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
#6
Thankyou Bo. I found it difficult to accept the sleeping beauty theory for today as a believer but who are the dead in Chrsit that will be raised first at the time of "Rapture"
I believe the resurrection already took place in 70 A.D. Since that point there is no more "sleeping" or "dead in Christ".

When a believer dies today he immediately goes to be with the Lord in heaven.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
3,222
3,549
113
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#7
I believe the resurrection already took place in 70 A.D. Since that point there is no more "sleeping" or "dead in Christ".

When a believer dies today he immediately goes to be with the Lord in heaven.
Hi Delirious, if what you say is true, that everyone who died remained, at best, unconscious in death before 70 AD, then what was the Lord, as well the Apostles Paul, Peter, Matthew and John referring to in the passages I posited above (see post #2). Granted, while John was writing about the things he witnessed in Heaven at the time, there is really no way to assign an accurate time or date to the passage from Revelation, but the other passages were all originally written in reference to a time prior to AD 70, yet they all seem to clearly describe a conscious existence of the soul in the Intermediate State.

Thanks!

~Deut
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#8
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Who are the dead in Christ?
Heard one preacher state these are believers who are sleeping? As in after we have passed away we sleep? (I guess in the grave: snowwhite) Until Jesus returns?
Another state: These are believers who are already in Heaven but will come back with the Lord to get their bodies?
Confusing!
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and in Revelation there are souls in heaven, and they ask Jesus when He will avenge them, and he said when their brethren are gathered unto them.

There is no reason for a saint of Jesus to sleep and not be with Him, for their sins are washed away completely by His blood, and they have the Spirit, so they can go directly to be with Him for there is no other qualification that they have to do to be with Him, but they slept in the Old Testament for they did not have the blood of Jesus to completely take away their sins, and did not have the Spirit, but are with Jesus now.

But the saints that are with Jesus have not received their glorified body yet, but are only a soul in heaven with Him, so the dead rise first must mean they receive their glorified body first for they are already with Jesus, and then those that remain on earth shall rise up to be with Jesus, and receive their glorified body.

For you must be out of the flesh, and be spiritual to receive your glorified body, so the saints that died, and are with Jesus are out of the flesh, and spiritual, so they can receive their glorified body, so they get their body first for the ones alive are still in the flesh, and when they are resurrected up, and out of the flesh, and spiritual, then they can receive their glorified body.

For the dead in Christ cannot mean they are not with Jesus, and sleep, for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and there is souls with Jesus now awaiting the rest to join them, all the saints, and then Jesus shall avenge them when He defeats the world at the battle of Armageddon.

So the dead in Christ rising first must mean receiving their glorified body, and all saints are either a soul with Jesus, or a soul in flesh alive on earth, and none of the saints are actually dead, or sleeping.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
#9
but the other passages were all originally written in reference to a time prior to AD 70, yet they all seem to clearly describe a conscious existence of the soul in the Intermediate State.
I'm not advocationg for "soul sleep". I don't know whether people were unconscious or were in a holding place like Sheol/Hades before 70 A.D. Sleeping represents being separated from God which is what happened to saved people at death while they awaited the resurrection.

After the resurrection in 70 A.D. no Christians sleep. There is no more separation at death. When a Christian dies he goes to be with the Lord immediately forever.
 

mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
289
64
28
#10
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and in Revelation there are souls in heaven, and they ask Jesus when He will avenge them, and he said when their brethren are gathered unto them.

There is no reason for a saint of Jesus to sleep and not be with Him, for their sins are washed away completely by His blood, and they have the Spirit, so they can go directly to be with Him for there is no other qualification that they have to do to be with Him, but they slept in the Old Testament for they did not have the blood of Jesus to completely take away their sins, and did not have the Spirit, but are with Jesus now.

But the saints that are with Jesus have not received their glorified body yet, but are only a soul in heaven with Him, so the dead rise first must mean they receive their glorified body first for they are already with Jesus, and then those that remain on earth shall rise up to be with Jesus, and receive their glorified body.

For you must be out of the flesh, and be spiritual to receive your glorified body, so the saints that died, and are with Jesus are out of the flesh, and spiritual, so they can receive their glorified body, so they get their body first for the ones alive are still in the flesh, and when they are resurrected up, and out of the flesh, and spiritual, then they can receive their glorified body.

For the dead in Christ cannot mean they are not with Jesus, and sleep, for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and there is souls with Jesus now awaiting the rest to join them, all the saints, and then Jesus shall avenge them when He defeats the world at the battle of Armageddon.

So the dead in Christ rising first must mean receiving their glorified body, and all saints are either a soul with Jesus, or a soul in flesh alive on earth, and none of the saints are actually dead, or sleeping.
Thank you Bro
I assume you you are stating the "Dead in Christ" are the OT saints. Good point.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
589
113
#11
Who are the Dead in Christ
You can find a bit of a study Here that you should find helpful...
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,426
3,479
113
#12
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Who are the dead in Christ?
Heard one preacher state these are believers who are sleeping? As in after we have passed away we sleep? (I guess in the grave: snowwhite) Until Jesus returns?
Another state: These are believers who are already in Heaven but will come back with the Lord to get their bodies?
Confusing!
Those who have been Christians in History who have died... They will be raised from the dead upon the return of Jesus..