Who is Elihu?
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My post was meaning that I believe Job took place long before the Law was ever introduced by God to Moses but that Job still understood the importance of offering Sacrifice like we read in the first couple Chapters. Typically speaking here, when we see someone understanding the purpose of Sacrifice Offering they are well aware that in the future the Messiah\Shiloh\the Promise is coming to take the need for Sacrifice away by fulfilling it.
Okay but there is something much more important to recognize here. I believe we both agree that God is Job's Redeemer. No question. So when Job says that his Redeemer lives, Job is speaking of the living God, Yahweh, and what Job is saying about God is right, as we have both agreed.
Now when Job says what is right about God it is during Job's back-and-forth argument with his 3 friends. Then at the end of the story in chapter 42:7,8 God explicitly says to the 3 friends that they have not spoken rightly about Him (God) as His servant Job has. God is clearly comparing the words of the 3 friends with the words of Job, which are delivered during chapters 4-31.
So Job is speaking directly "about God" when Job says that his Redeemer lives, and when God says twice in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God), it is in comparison to the words of his 3 friends.
There are more, but 19:25 is one of the more significant examples of what God was saying when He states that Job has spoken rightly about Him. So it is not about what Job says in the beginning of chapter 42, where Job speaks mostly about himself.
Now when Job says what is right about God it is during Job's back-and-forth argument with his 3 friends. Then at the end of the story in chapter 42:7,8 God explicitly says to the 3 friends that they have not spoken rightly about Him (God) as His servant Job has. God is clearly comparing the words of the 3 friends with the words of Job, which are delivered during chapters 4-31.
So Job is speaking directly "about God" when Job says that his Redeemer lives, and when God says twice in chapter 42 that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God), it is in comparison to the words of his 3 friends.
There are more, but 19:25 is one of the more significant examples of what God was saying when He states that Job has spoken rightly about Him. So it is not about what Job says in the beginning of chapter 42, where Job speaks mostly about himself.
Job says he knows as much as Elihu knows, and that is probably true, but Job's words were not cited ad scripture in the NT.
Words of Elihu
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. (9) By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
Job 5:2 For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one.
Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. (8) I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause: (9) Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number: (10) Who giveth rain upon the earth, and sendeth waters upon the fields: God said, Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man (27) To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 5:11 To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn may be exalted to safety. This verse parallels the first two beatitudes from Matt. 5:3-4.
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. Recorded as scripture in 1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Job 5:27 Lo this, we have searched it, so it is; hear it, and know thou it for thy good.
Words of Job
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for! (9) Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
Job 7:7 O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good. HOW DO YOU COMPARE THESE VERSES? Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: (26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: (27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, (21) before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; (22) A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.
Job 13:2 What ye know, the same do I know also: I am not inferior unto you.
Job 13:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine enemy?
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 16:14 He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant. (17)
Not for any injustice in mine hands: also my prayer is pure.
Job 16:22 When a few years are come, then I shall go the way whence I shall not return.
Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
Job 23:3 Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!
Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live. Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
JOB SEEMS TO HAVE MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES. WHICH ONE IS THE TRUE JOB? The one that trusts God to redeem him, or the one who doesn't know how to be just with God, or the one who doesn't know where to find God, or the one who says God will laugh at the trial of the innocent. Do you believe God will laugh at the trial of the innocent?
Another example of Job speaking right about God is found in chapter 28. It is chock-full of how much greater God is than man and extolling God about how He understands the way of wisdom. The end of chapter 28 Job states what God has said about wisdom:
Job 28 And unto man He [God] said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
Notice this is precisely how God describes Job in the beginning of the story in Job 1:8 and Job 2:3.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
You can also find cross references to this same idea in Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 9:10, and Psalm 111:10.
This is yet more overt evidence confirming God's statements saying that Job has spoken right about Him [God].
Job 28 And unto man He [God] said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
Notice this is precisely how God describes Job in the beginning of the story in Job 1:8 and Job 2:3.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
You can also find cross references to this same idea in Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 9:10, and Psalm 111:10.
This is yet more overt evidence confirming God's statements saying that Job has spoken right about Him [God].
CORRECTION FOR POST 266. IT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WORDS OF ELIHU, BUT RATHER ELIPHAZWords of Eliphaz
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. (9) By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
Job 5:2 For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one.
Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward. (8) I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause: (9) Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number: (10) Who giveth rain upon the earth, and sendeth waters upon the fields: God said, Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man (27) To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 5:11 To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn may be exalted to safety. This verse parallels the first two beatitudes from Matt. 5:3-4.
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. Recorded as scripture in 1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Job 5:27 Lo this, we have searched it, so it is; hear it, and know thou it for thy good.
Words of Job
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for! (9) Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
Job 7:7 O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good. HOW DO YOU COMPARE THESE VERSES? Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: (26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: (27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, (21) before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death; (22) A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.
Job 13:2 What ye know, the same do I know also: I am not inferior unto you.
Job 13:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine enemy?
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 16:14 He breaketh me with breach upon breach, he runneth upon me like a giant. (17)
Not for any injustice in mine hands: also my prayer is pure.
Job 16:22 When a few years are come, then I shall go the way whence I shall not return.
Job 19:10 He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.
Job 23:3 Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!
Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live. Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
JOB SEEMS TO HAVE MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES. WHICH ONE IS THE TRUE JOB? The one that trusts God to redeem him, or the one who doesn't know how to be just with God, or the one who doesn't know where to find God, or the one who says God will laugh at the trial of the innocent. Do you believe God will laugh at the trial of the innocent?
I think these are important questions, and I'm glad you bring them up. Thank you.
As dramatic as Job's statements are, I do not believe they are in conflict with each other. Rather, what Job is expressing is everything that he is experiencing during his trial. All of what he is saying directly relates to his multi-faceted ordeal.
It is important to remember Job 2:3 where God explicitly states He had been moved against Job to destroy him "without cause". God admits there was no reason for Job to endure this kind of suffering. It was utterly disproportionate to the life Job was living.
What is remarkable about Job is that, first of all, instead of turning away from God, Job turns to God. Job is repeatedly and actively seeking God and trying to make sense of what has happened between them. This alone is proof Job has a relationship with God. Consider, too, what Job says in 10:11-14:
11Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
12Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.
13And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee.
14If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.
Notice, too, verse 14 where Job acknowledges that God holds him accountable when he sins. It's not that Job had never sinned in his life, but in his relationship with God he had learned how to respond to God's conviction when he sinned and he learned how to live a life of repentance. (Job 1:1 "one that feared God, and eschewed evil.") In this story, however, Job is suffering punishment as if he had sinned, but we know from the very beginning, it is not because he had sinned. Job even actively asks God to reveal his sin to him so he can repent and be forgiven - but God stays silent until the very end.
As for the more intense things and terrifying things that Job says, I would point again to what God says in chapter 42 where God states that Job has spoken rightly about Him [God]. Again, it is written that God says He was moved against Job to destroy him "without cause."
As for the line about God laughing at the trial of the innocent, I do not believe Job is saying that as a general statement applied everywhere to everyone suffering. No. Nothing of the sort. However, it seems that this is what Job (specifically) is suffering in his particular ordeal. That would apply to the other difficult things he says, too.
But the most amazing thing is that even through the atrocities Job faces, the relationship between him and God endures. Their relationship was ultimately not broken, as predicted by satan, the liar. This is one of the beauties of this book. This story proves that God's relationship with His creation is relational, not merely transactional, and God proving this through this story brings Him glory.
As dramatic as Job's statements are, I do not believe they are in conflict with each other. Rather, what Job is expressing is everything that he is experiencing during his trial. All of what he is saying directly relates to his multi-faceted ordeal.
It is important to remember Job 2:3 where God explicitly states He had been moved against Job to destroy him "without cause". God admits there was no reason for Job to endure this kind of suffering. It was utterly disproportionate to the life Job was living.
What is remarkable about Job is that, first of all, instead of turning away from God, Job turns to God. Job is repeatedly and actively seeking God and trying to make sense of what has happened between them. This alone is proof Job has a relationship with God. Consider, too, what Job says in 10:11-14:
11Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
12Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.
13And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee.
14If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.
Notice, too, verse 14 where Job acknowledges that God holds him accountable when he sins. It's not that Job had never sinned in his life, but in his relationship with God he had learned how to respond to God's conviction when he sinned and he learned how to live a life of repentance. (Job 1:1 "one that feared God, and eschewed evil.") In this story, however, Job is suffering punishment as if he had sinned, but we know from the very beginning, it is not because he had sinned. Job even actively asks God to reveal his sin to him so he can repent and be forgiven - but God stays silent until the very end.
As for the more intense things and terrifying things that Job says, I would point again to what God says in chapter 42 where God states that Job has spoken rightly about Him [God]. Again, it is written that God says He was moved against Job to destroy him "without cause."
As for the line about God laughing at the trial of the innocent, I do not believe Job is saying that as a general statement applied everywhere to everyone suffering. No. Nothing of the sort. However, it seems that this is what Job (specifically) is suffering in his particular ordeal. That would apply to the other difficult things he says, too.
But the most amazing thing is that even through the atrocities Job faces, the relationship between him and God endures. Their relationship was ultimately not broken, as predicted by satan, the liar. This is one of the beauties of this book. This story proves that God's relationship with His creation is relational, not merely transactional, and God proving this through this story brings Him glory.
I agree with you when you say God stated that Satan had God move against Job without cause. Satan’s cause was to destroy Job. Satan had said Job would not bless God if something bad happened to his possessions, and Satan was wrong. Job did bless God. This makes Satan’s cause unjust.
This first test does not state what God’s cause was for allowing Job’s loss of possessions. It is my opinion that Job was not saved, and his soul was heading for the pit, as we read in Job 33:24. Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
God’s purpose for allowing Satan to take Job’s possessions was to get Job’s attention so that he might put on God’s righteousness in place of his own righteousness.
The second test turned out far different.
When you say Job has a relationship with God are you implying that Job is saved from the beginning?
Job asked, Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
Job asked who is God, Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Job’s relationship with God was as a servant. Job describes the kind of servant he was in-----------
Job 7:1 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?
Job 7:2 As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:
Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
We know that a hired servant cannot partake of the Passover Lamb. He can have no part of Christ according to--------
Exo 12:45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
Lev 22:10 There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
When Jesus said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”, He was speaking of himself as the Passover Lamb.(Matthew 26:26, Mark 14:22, and 1 Corinthians 11:24.
Also compare what Job said with Proverbs 30:22.
Job said, Job 29:24-25 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down. I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.
Proverbs says, Pro 30:21-22 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear:For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;
Six myths that people believe that prevent them from understanding the book of Job.
1. That Job has salvation because God said Job was blameless and upright at a particular time.
2. That Satan was wrong both times about Job.
3. That the three friends said something wrong about God.
4. That God’s cause and Satan’s cause were the same in allowing Job to suffer.
5. That the book of Job was an early book.
6. That Elihu was a rash young man, rather than a man sent by God to represent God.
