Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

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S

Scribe

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Just one brick Lord, just one!:giggle:

1 Corinthians 2:9-10KJV
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 

Blik

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Dec 6, 2016
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Yes, poor Mathias. After one mention of his name, he disappears altogether. But the apostle Paul dominates the New Testament. So who else could it be but Paul?

Which also means that there were no more apostles after those twelve.
Scripture tells us the 12th apostle was Paul.

"Go, for this man is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel; For I will show him what great things he must suffer for My name" (Acts 9:15 - 16,
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
They need to study the Scriptures like the Bereans did. Which I have done.
Biting my tongue...

FreeGrace2 said:
I gave the evidence from all 3 passages that mention the GC that the 11 remaining disciples were the only ones present.
And I just finished showing you in another post that you're dead wrong.

Let's see if you'll repent and admit your error.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
If ignorance truly was bliss, then many of the posts on this forum would be like heaven on earth.

Seriously, many posters here should just shut up, get on their knees before God, and stay there until they actually know something.

Don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.
That is number one. The praying part. A heart of surrender. A clear conscience void of offense. A love for Jesus and a hatred for sin. The Holy Spirit will illuminate those who's heart is completely His but not if they hold on to sinful lusts of the flesh and wicked attitudes. If they hold on to known darkness their light will be turned into darkness.

The servant of the Lord must not strive but be patient with all men, apt to teach. Easy to be intreated. It is better to put someone on ignore or just stop engaging if we detect that they are belligerent intellectually dishonest spirits.

If we possess the correct interpretations to scriptures we ought to be able to show it with the wisdom that is from above.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
Scripture tells us the 12th apostle was Paul.

"Go, for this man is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel; For I will show him what great things he must suffer for My name" (Acts 9:15 - 16,
check out post 59. Paul said he was not one of the 12. We should not disagree with him. He was an apostle but the 12 existed before him. He was as one born out of due time he says. You are late to the party.
 
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I said:
I've shown where Paul received the GC the SAME WAY the 11 did. Matthias didn't. Nor any others. Only 12 men received the GC face to face.
I provided Scripture. There is no error in Scripture.

Let's try this again.
I'd be happy to.

Luke 24 [33] - [51]

As we just read, Jesus appeared not only unto "the eleven" (Judas was already dead at this time), but also unto "THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" (vs. 33), and nowhere in the remaining narrative did these "THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" depart.
Talk about error. Your error is that you have missed the whole point. The Bible records clearly that Jesus gave the GC to the 11 disciples/apostles BEFORE His ascension. Not the 120, which was the number of the group of believers in Jerusalem, per Acts 1:15.

Then, Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus and commissioned him with the GC.

If you believe that they did, then show us where it says so in scripture.
Not clear what you are asking. "they did" WHAT?

Good luck with that.
I don't need luck. I use the Bible.

In fact, these "THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" were among those whom JESUS COMMISSIONED "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (vs. 47) while telling them "and ye are witnesses of these things" (vs. 48).
I don't see "commissioning" in either verse. Where do you see it?

Not only this, but he then told "the eleven, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" (vs. 33) to "tarry...in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high".
Jesus was obviously prophesying about the gift of the Holy Spirit, which occurred after He ascended. Still nothing about commissioning "those that were with them.

Just read the texts: Matt 28:16-20, Mark 16:14,15 and Acts 1:1-8. ONLY the 11 were given the GC. And then Paul later.

In other words, there were a lot more people than just "the eleven" present when Jesus gave THE GREAT COMMISSION, AND we should also expect to see more than just "the eleven" tarrying in the city of Jerusalem as a result, AND WE WILL in just a moment.
Wrong. Jesus didn't give the GC to more than the 11, as the above texts prove.

This same Luke who wrote this gospel account also wrote the book of Acts, where we read:

Acts chapter 1

[1] The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
[2] Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
[3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
[12] Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
[13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
[14] These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Do I even need to explain what we just read?
Uh, no. But it's clear that YOU are in need of an explanation of the passage.

Start with v.2 - Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

OK, so at that time, before the ascension, who were the "apostles"?

Here's the fact::

Matt 10-
2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

Mark 3:14 - And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach

So, before Jesus ascended, He commissioned the the 11 apostles. Not the whole group.

Do you?

In fact, as has already been pointed out to you, Matthias was with "the eleven", according to Peter who was one of "the eleven", "ALL THE TIME THAT THE LORD JESUS WENT IN AND OUT AMONG US, BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, UNTO THAT SAME DAY THAT HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US" (vss. 21-22), AND "THAT SAME DAY THAT HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US" WAS THE DAY IN WHICH HE GAVE THEM, MATTHIAS INCLUDED, THE GREAT COMMISSION.
Being with Jesus "all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out" does NOT equate with apostleship.

Matt 28:16-20, Mark 16:14,15 and Acts 1:1-8 PROVE that before His ascension, Jesus commissioned ONLY the apostles to make disciples and teach them everything I've told you.

Then Jesus appeared to Paul and commissioned him as an apostle.

Seriously, you're in error.
Seriously, you are wrong.

We all make mistakes.
I've made my share. But not on this one.

Just admit it, and all will be fine.
Read the Bible, and all will be fine.
 
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I am not hear to argue with people. This particular subject has been answered.
I provided Scripture to prove that Paul was commissioned by Jesus personally, just as the other 11 were.

Everyone knows we are called to fulfill the Great Commission until Jesus comes again.
So, is this theology by democracy? Take a vote and the majority wins? lol

No, I side with Scripture. I do agree that most people assume the GC was for every believer. But the very wording and who was present when Jesus gave it personally proves otherwise.

It is Christianity 101 and I don't think anyone is seriously confused about it so I will not waste my time arguing with anyone about it. It is just not an actual real life item of confusion for the church today.
Sure. take a vote, and stick with the majority.

I stand by the Word of God.

The GC was personally delivered to the 11, by Jesus personally. And then Jesus appeared to Paul, also personally, and gave the GC to him as well.
 
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Blik said:
Scripture tells us the 12th apostle was Paul.

"Go, for this man is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel; For I will show him what great things he must suffer for My name" (Acts 9:15 - 16,"
check out post 59. Paul said he was not one of the 12. We should not disagree with him. He was an apostle but the 12 existed before him. He was as one born out of due time he says. You are late to the party.
Now, this is interesting. You are arguing AGAINST the Lord Jesus. Please read Acts 9:15,16 and you will see that Paul was directly commissioned by Jesus Christ. Without a doubt at all.

So what that Paul acknowledged Matthias as an apostle? He was a very humble man. And there were other apostles anyway.

The point is simply that Jesus commissioned the 11 before He ascended and then commissioned Paul directly later on.

It is that simple.

I think the main problem with the naysayers here is that due to very poor, sloppy teaching over the centuries by lazy pastors/teachers, who haven't really bothered paying attention to what they read, there is an ASSUMPTION that the GC is for everyone.

If that were true, then over 99% of all believers have FAILED miserably. I heard a pastor recently note that there is NO mention of the GC in the NT, beyond Acts 1.

That alone should inform the naysayers.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I think the main problem with the naysayers here is that due to very poor, sloppy teaching over the centuries by lazy pastors/teachers, who haven't really bothered paying attention to what they read, there is an ASSUMPTION that the GC is for everyone.

If that were true, then over 99% of all believers have FAILED miserably. I heard a pastor recently note that there is NO mention of the GC in the NT, beyond Acts 1.

That alone should inform the naysayers.
You have made a good point that throughout scripture, it appears that the GC was only given to the 11.

And you hold the doctrine that it was only meant for them and not the Body of Christ, which I actually agree but for reasons different from yours.

So, in your view, was the GC ever fulfilled by the current 12 (With or without Paul)?
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Well, there you have it, folks.

According to certain posters here, the Great Commission doesn't apply to any of us nor to any of the other countless Christians who have ever walked the earth since the time of the eleven and Paul.

Yes, apparently, we've all just been wasting our time.

Now that we've all been enlightened, anybody want to go bowling?
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Acts chapter 8

[1] And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
[2] And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
[3] As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
[4] Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

I don't know about the rest of you, but now that I've been enlightened, I'm tearing passages of scripture like this out of my Bible.

After all, the Great Commission was only given to the apostles (according to certain false teachers here), and those who were scattered weren't apostles (vs. 1), so they were very, very, very disobedient to the Lord.

Bad, bad fake Christians.

Too bad that they have our "teachers" here.

If they did, then they would have never engaged in such grievous error.

Seriously, if anybody believes the nonsense that certain members here are spewing, then you need A LOT of help.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
That should have read "Too bad that they didn't have" in my last sarcastic reply.

Btw, does anybody have a Band-Aid?

I just got the nastiest paper cut while ripping the gospel of Mark, the gospel of Luke, the book of Acts, the book of James, and the book of Jude out of my Bible.

After all, the Great Commission wasn't given to any of them, so who cares what they have to say?

Seeing how the author of the book of Hebrews is uncertain, should I just play it safe and tear that out of my Bible as well?

Please advise.

Thanks.
 
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Acts chapter 8

[1] And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
[2] And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
[3] As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
[4] Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

I don't know about the rest of you, but now that I've been enlightened, I'm tearing passages of scripture like this out of my Bible.

After all, the Great Commission was only given to the apostles (according to certain false teachers here), and those who were scattered weren't apostles (vs. 1), so they were very, very, very disobedient to the Lord.

Bad, bad fake Christians.

Too bad that they have our "teachers" here.

If they did, then they would have never engaged in such grievous error.

Seriously, if anybody believes the nonsense that certain members here are spewing, then you need A LOT of help.
Actually, the verse 1 appears to "support" his thesis

[1] And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Why did the 11/12 not go to Judaea and Samaria? Its because the order that the Lord specified in the Luke's and Acts version of the GC to them

47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem

Acts 1
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

So until the Jerusalem HQ accepts Jesus as their promised Messiah (Acts 2:36), the 12 is not to depart from there to the other nations.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Actually, the verse 1 appears to "support" his thesis

[1] And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Why did the 11/12 not go to Judaea and Samaria? Its because the order that the Lord specified in the Luke's and Acts version of the GC to them

47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem

Acts 1
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

So until the Jerusalem HQ accepts Jesus as their promised Messiah (Acts 2:36), the 12 is not to depart from there to the other nations.
My brain almost fell out of my head when I read your post.

Do you honestly believe what you just said?

First of all, they DID begin preaching at Jerusalem, as is clearly shown in the chapters preceding this one in the book of Acts, and you even referenced a verse (Acts 2:36) from a sermon that was given by Peter IN JERUSALEM.

Second of all, if we merely continue reading in this very same chapter of the book of Acts, then we read:

Acts chapter 8

[14] Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
[15] Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
[16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
[17] Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

If, according to the absolute nonsense that you just posted, "the 12 is (are) not to depart from there", Jerusalem, "to the other nations...until the Jerusalem HQ accepts Jesus as their promised Messiah", then why did "THE APOSTLES WHICH WERE AT JERUSALEM" send Peter and John to Samaria?

Look, I know that I've employed the use of some sarcasm here recently, but I'm totally serious in what I'm about to say...

I've been a Christian for more than 32 years now, and I can honestly say that I've never heard such nonsense as I'm hearing here on this particular thread before, and I've heard just about every totally off-the-wall thing imaginable.

Anyhow, I'm done here (this thread) for tonight.

Good night.
 
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My brain almost fell out of my head when I read your post.

Do you honestly believe what you just said?

First of all, they DID begin preaching at Jerusalem, as is clearly shown in the chapters preceding this one in the book of Acts, and you even referenced a verse (Acts 2:36) from a sermon that was given by Peter IN JERUSALEM.

Second of all, if we merely continue reading in this very same chapter of the book of Acts, then we read:

Acts chapter 8

[14] Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
[15] Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
[16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
[17] Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

If, according to the absolute nonsense that you just posted, "the 12 is (are) not to depart from there", Jerusalem, "to the other nations...until the Jerusalem HQ accepts Jesus as their promised Messiah", then why did "THE APOSTLES WHICH WERE AT JERUSALEM" send Peter and John to Samaria?

Look, I know that I've employed the use of some sarcasm here recently, but I'm totally serious in what I'm about to say...

I've been a Christian for more than 32 years now, and I can honestly say that I've never heard such nonsense as I'm hearing here on this particular thread before, and I've heard just about every totally off-the-wall thing imaginable.

Anyhow, I'm done here (this thread) for tonight.

Good night.
The point I was making is that the 12's first priority is to ensure Jerusalem accept Christ as their Messiah first.

They can of course make occasional visits beyond there.

They are following the order in Luke and Acts version of the GC, as well as in Zechariah 8.
 
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You have made a good point that throughout scripture, it appears that the GC was only given to the 11.
And Paul. Acts 9:15 is what Jesus told Ananias about Paul, and Paul's own testimony shows He was given the GC personally by Christ. He spend 3 years in the desert, receiving revelation directly from the Lord. Just about the same time span as the Lord spent with the 12.

And you hold the doctrine that it was only meant for them and not the Body of Christ, which I actually agree but for reasons different from yours.
OK.

So, in your view, was the GC ever fulfilled by the current 12 (With or without Paul)?
Yes. All in the 1st Century.

I will add this. Since generations come and go, it's necessary to re-evangelize populations. And God gives the spiritual gift of evangelization to those He chooses. We call them missionaries. But they function under the "making disciples and teaching them" commission that Jesus gave the 11 plus Paul.

To teach that the GC is for every believer only means that over 99% of believers have failed miserably. Jesus told the 12 to GO into all the world, making disciples and teaching them.

Giving to and supporting missions in no way fulfills the GC. One must GO, make disciples and teach them what Jesus taught the 11 and Paul.

Such teaching only creates guilt and a sense of failure. The command is clear. Only those who actually GO and evangelize (make disciples) and then teach them fulfill the GC.
 
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Well, there you have it, folks.

According to certain posters here, the Great Commission doesn't apply to any of us nor to any of the other countless Christians who have ever walked the earth since the time of the eleven and Paul.
Well, there you have it, folks.

A poster who has a great imagination but totally misses the point. I never said any of this, except that the GC was given ONLY to sthe 11 plus Paul, which I provided clear evidence for.

Yes, apparently, we've all just been wasting our time.
The ONLY believers who actually function under the GC are missionaries, of whom God calls and sends. Generations of people need re-evangelization, obviously. The GC was totally fulfilled in the 1st Century. But in the ensuing years, many areas need to be re-evangelized.

If you can provide ANY verse that clearly shows that the GC is for every believer, please share.

btw, did you know that the GC isn't even mentioned in ANY of the epistles?
 
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Acts chapter 8

[1] And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
[2] And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
[3] As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
[4] Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

I don't know about the rest of you, but now that I've been enlightened, I'm tearing passages of scripture like this out of my Bible.
That would be a foolish action.

After all, the Great Commission was only given to the apostles (according to certain false teachers here), and those who were scattered weren't apostles (vs. 1), so they were very, very, very disobedient to the Lord.
Sorry that you have such a difficult time understanding clear Scripture. Jesus gave the GC to ONLY the 11 and Paul. No one else.

The FACT is that Jesus specifically taught the 11 during His 3.5 years of His public ministry. And Paul received about the same amount of teaching by revelation.

Eph 3:3 - that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

Bad, bad fake Christians.

Too bad that they have our "teachers" here.
Instead of snarkiness, how about providing verses that support your theory.

If they did, then they would have never engaged in such grievous error.
I have provided clear evidence for my claims.

Seriously, if anybody believes the nonsense that certain members here are spewing, then you need A LOT of help.
I think we know who needs help here.
 
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That should have read "Too bad that they didn't have" in my last sarcastic reply.
Your sarcastic replies belie your "handle" or forum name. That is sad.

BTW, the 12th name on the foundation of the NJ in Rev 21 isn't an essential doctrine, so no one needs to get their panties in a twist. But it seems some have.

They need to lighten up.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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The ONLY believers who actually function under the GC are missionaries, of whom God calls and sends. Generations of people need re-evangelization, obviously. The GC was totally fulfilled in the 1st Century. But in the ensuing years, many areas need to be re-evangelized.

If you can provide ANY verse that clearly shows that the GC is for every believer, please share.

btw, did you know that the GC isn't even mentioned in ANY of the epistles?

Hi Freegrace,

I think we need to look at the 'great commison''terminology that we use. Why do we use such a term and what does it mean.

Do you share the gospel with others? Do you proclaim it?


And said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luke 24:46-47


And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, ... Ephesians 4:11-16