Who is the antiChrist?

[SolidGround]

I believe that post tribulation theory is a faulty methodology used to interpret the prophetic scriptures for many reasons

Post trib is generally the same or similar to pre trib in interpretations.
I think the quarrel on this thread is with amillenialists or even postmillenialists.
We premillenials need to stick together, regardless of our rapture views.

The issue is whether the Bible says what it means, or if it is just a huge metaphor.

 

[Straightshot]

"Post trib is general the same or similar to pre trib in interpretations.
I think the quarrel on this thread is with amillenialists or even postmillenialists.
We premillenials need to stick together, regardless of our rapture views.

The issue is whether the Bible says what it means, or if it is just a huge metaphor."


I would agree with your view as well

Amils and post for sure ... post tribulation is just another cut down from of amil

They push the Lord's involvement to the end of the same thereby eliminating His judgment that He will bring Himself .... they say "Satan's judgment"

The Lord is only going to intervene on once ..... before, and not after His time of trial and judgment

Any problem with the post tribulation view?

There is .... first of all is the refutation that the Lord will come suddenly with no warning

Those in the tribulation will have ample warning leading up to His appearance at the end of the "days" of the tribulation

That the Lord is not going to rule over a kingdom of the surviving mortals of the tribulation period .... the PT says no way .... the prophets give a different view

All of this PT ranting generates confusion for those who look on .... a mockery of the Lord's prophetic word .... good or bad? .... I say not good

Here is the real danger for PT .... most of professing Christianity is composed of those who think they are saved and they are not for many different reasons .... this is a fact

There is no sense of urgency among these fence sitters .... so they will stay where they are in most cases with no leaders to influence their lukewarm position of being unsaved and no oil checking [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

PT gives room for idleness and this is the danger

If living at the time of the Lord's abrupt break in, these will head for the tribulation unsaved with the rest of the unbelieving world ..... a place not conducive to repentance and safety from deception ..... including vexation, confusion, and destruction all over the earth

Some will get it and call upon the Lord, but many will not, and they will be killed and lost forever

 

[Reborn]

The issue is whether the Bible says what it means, or if it is just a huge metaphor.

I wouldn't say the entire Bible? Parts....?
I'm curious as why you don't see Revelation as primarily spoken in figurative language? One can still believe the scripture says/means exactly what it says literally throughout the Bible-- basically up until Rev? From lampstands to beasts, to dragons and so on, the rest of the Bible is a set up/key to figuring out what all the visions mean throughout Revelation.

Even in Revelation he gives us certain keys.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands ARE the seven churches.

Why would we assume He would change the 'definition' of a lampstand on us, especially in the middle of the Book?

Lampstands=Churches. This eliminates any possibility that the two witnesses can be people?

Rev 11: 3-4
3.And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

The key to understanding Revelation is out there.
Am I off here?

 

[Jillyanne]

I have read that Rome created Islam, does anyone know if there is any truth to that? SO much garbage on the internet that who knows what's true.

 

[SolidGround]

"Post trib is general the same or similar to pre trib in interpretations.
I think the quarrel on this thread is with amillenialists or even postmillenialists.
We premillenials need to stick together, regardless of our rapture views.

The issue is whether the Bible says what it means, or if it is just a huge metaphor."


I would agree with your view as well

Amils and post for sure ... post tribulation is just another cut down from of amil

They push the Lord's involvement to the end of the same thereby eliminating His judgment that He will bring Himself .... they say "Satan's judgment"

The Lord is only going to intervene on once ..... before, and not after His time of trial and judgment

Any problem with the post tribulation view?

There is .... first of all is the refutation that the Lord will come suddenly with no warning

Those in the tribulation will have ample warning leading up to His appearance at the end of the "days" of the tribulation

That the Lord is not going to rule over a kingdom of the surviving mortals of the tribulation period .... the PT says no way .... the prophets give a different view

All of this PT ranting generates confusion for those who look on .... a mockery of the Lord's prophetic word .... good or bad? .... I say not good

Here is the real danger for PT .... most of professing Christianity is composed of those who think they are saved and they are not for many different reasons .... this is a fact

There is no sense of urgency among these fence sitters .... so they will stay where they are in most cases with no leaders to influence their lukewarm position of being unsaved and no oil checking [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

PT gives room for idleness and this is the danger

If living at the time of the Lord's abrupt break in, these will head for the tribulation unsaved with the rest of the unbelieving world ..... a place not conducive to repentance and safety from deception ..... including vexation, confusion, and destruction all over the earth

Some will get it and call upon the Lord, but many will not, and they will be killed and lost forever

It comes down to focus, as in imminent judgement, or imminent escape.
Pre trib says imminent escape, post or mid trib says imminent judgement.

Either way, it is clear that Believers are aware, awake, and spared from judgements,
And unbelievers are deceived, asleep, and are handed over to judgements.

 

[Straightshot]

This is not true

No valid historical evidence ..... and no biblical support

You will find this nonsense among the conspiracy tabloid junkies

A total ruse

 

[Jillyanne]

This is not true

No valid historical evidence ..... and no biblical support

You will find this nonsense among the conspiracy tabloid junkies

A total ruse

was as this for my question?

 

[Jackson123]

I have read that Rome created Islam, does anyone know if there is any truth to that? SO much garbage on the internet that who knows what's true.

I believe it is true.

What make me believe it's true is:

Dr Alberto Rivera a person that exposed this since mid 60's said the reason catholic create Muslim is:
a. to take Jerusalem. And Muslim did occupy Jerusalem but they rebel and not turn it to Vatican, they build a mosque for them self.

Catholic believe Pope is representative of Jesus on earth. The bible said that Jesus will come to mount olive(old jerusalem) to reign for 1000 years. Back then I never heard that Vatican want Jerusalem. Now I googling vatican want jerusalem more then 1300000 article.


bout 1,310,000 results (0.38 seconds)
Search Results
The Vatican and Jerusalem
The Vatican and Jerusalem
How Does The Vatican View The Legitimacy of Israel's Claims To Jerusalem? By Joel Bainerman ... It is something else, which the Vatican wants. The Roman ...
Expose: The Vatican Wants to Lay its Hands on Jerusalem
The Vatican Wants to Lay its Hands on Jerusalem - Inside Israel - News - Arutz Sheva
Arutz Sheva
Dec 15, 2011 - The Vatican is now reiterating demands for control of religious sites in Jerusalem. Jordan's occupation 1948-1967 didn't bother them.




2. to destroy the real christian. We experience how Muslim persecute real Christian in middle east now.

Also there are some information provide by Alberto long before it happen.

Example, Pope will apologize to Israel about holocaust.

When US Presidential inauguration face obelisk, mean Vatican secretly take over US congress. And one of San Diego pastor said that Alberto tell this to him in almost 20 years before it happen.

President Reagan is the first president face obelisk in his inauguration (1984)

Let me repeat, If he said after it happen, I will not believe. He said long before people know or before it happen

 

[SolidGround]

I wouldn't say the entire Bible? Parts....?
I'm curious as why you don't see Revelation as primarily spoken in figurative language? One can still believe the scripture says/means exactly what it says literally throughout the Bible-- basically up until Rev? From lampstands to beasts, to dragons and so on, the rest of the Bible is a set up/key to figuring out what all the visions mean throughout Revelation.

Even in Revelation he gives us certain keys.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands ARE the seven churches.

Why would we assume He would change the 'definition' of a lampstand on us, especially in the middle of the Book?

Lampstands=Churches. This eliminates any possibility that the two witnesses can be people?

Rev 11: 3-4
3.And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

The key to understanding Revelation is out there.
Am I off here?

The key certainly is within the text itself. Scripture interpretes Scripture.
Issues come when people give up looking too soon, and put in an allegory to give the passage meaning.
Issues also come when we make assumptions. These are the hardest things to break.

Your examples are a good example to show how Scripture interpretes itself.
Some of the implications may be missed, but that is easy to remedy.

 

[Straightshot]

'Dr Alberto Rivera a person that exposed this since mid 60's said the reason catholic create Muslim is:
a. to take Jerusalem. And Muslim did occupy Jerusalem but they rebel and not turn it to Vatican, they build a mosque for them self."


This story is a total hoax .... there is no truth in it

It is a perverted extra-biblican rant and doesn't even make sense

Give the the scriptures that support it .... surely it is there?

 

[Reborn]

Some of the implications may be missed, but that is easy to remedy.

?
I guess my main point was if people go into 'understanding' Revelation with already burnt in preconceived ideas- (7 yr, Post, Pre, Mark of the Beast, AntiChrist, etc. ) how does one motivate another to study these ideas on their own? Check to see if they are indeed wrong....and if they prove to be....what can we learn about them then? If we even find even one fault in our passed on traditions, ( Mark of the Beast: I believe a spiritual mark--and another thread on it's own?) should it be our responsibility to investigate all of them now?

Post?Pre?....all of that? Maybe all (including myself) are too hung up on defending "isms" instead of just seeing what scripture really truly says.
Just wondering?

 

[Jackson123]

'Dr Alberto Rivera a person that exposed this since mid 60's said the reason catholic create Muslim is:
a. to take Jerusalem. And Muslim did occupy Jerusalem but they rebel and not turn it to Vatican, they build a mosque for them self."


This story is a total hoax .... there is no truth in it

It is a perverted extra-biblican rant and doesn't even make sense

Give the the scriptures that support it .... surely it is there?

Are you expect who start Muslim in the bible? Bible finish in the first century and Islam start in the 5 century.

 

[Jillyanne]

I believe it is true.

What make me believe it's true is:

Dr Alberto Rivera a person that exposed this since mid 60's said the reason catholic create Muslim is:
a. to take Jerusalem. And Muslim did occupy Jerusalem but they rebel and not turn it to Vatican, they build a mosque for them self.

Catholic believe Pope is representative of Jesus on earth. The bible said that Jesus will come to mount olive(old jerusalem) to reign for 1000 years. Back then I never heard that Vatican want Jerusalem. Now I googling vatican want jerusalem more then 1300000 article.


bout 1,310,000 results (0.38 seconds)
Search Results
The Vatican and Jerusalem
The Vatican and Jerusalem
How Does The Vatican View The Legitimacy of Israel's Claims To Jerusalem? By Joel Bainerman ... It is something else, which the Vatican wants. The Roman ...
Expose: The Vatican Wants to Lay its Hands on Jerusalem
The Vatican Wants to Lay its Hands on Jerusalem - Inside Israel - News - Arutz Sheva
Arutz Sheva
Dec 15, 2011 - The Vatican is now reiterating demands for control of religious sites in Jerusalem. Jordan's occupation 1948-1967 didn't bother them.




2. to destroy the real christian. We experience how Muslim persecute real Christian in middle east now.

Also there are some information provide by Alberto long before it happen.

Example, Pope will apologize to Israel about holocaust.

When US Presidential inauguration face obelisk, mean Vatican secretly take over US congress. And one of San Diego pastor said that Alberto tell this to him in almost 20 years before it happen.

President Reagan is the first president face obelisk in his inauguration (1984)

Let me repeat, If he said after it happen, I will not believe. He said long before people know or before it happen

i have been reading a lot on Vaticans interest in Mt. Zion, of course not in the headline news, that's reserved for Miley cyrus twerking and important stuff. Thank you...interesting.

 

[SolidGround]

?
I guess my main point was if people go into 'understanding' Revelation with already burnt in preconceived ideas- (7 yr, Post, Pre, Mark of the Beast, AntiChrist, etc. ) how does one motivate another to study these ideas on their own? Check to see if they are indeed wrong....and if they prove to be....what can we learn about them then? If we even find even one fault in our passed on traditions, ( Mark of the Beast: I believe a spiritual mark--and another thread on it's own?) should it be our responsibility to investigate all of them now?

Post?Pre?....all of that? Maybe all (including myself) are too hung up on defending "isms" instead of just seeing what scripture really truly says.
Just wondering?

You have the right attitude! The Berean mindset of testing the teachings against the Word.

I have found myself accepting and rejecting many of the views posted here, as I learn more.
I was a pre-tribber for many years, then went post trib, then went amill (no rapture), and now I'm mid-trib (pre wrath).

I could explain to you how I got to this view, but wiser men are on all sides of these issues.

I have found that young people (including my younger self) will either blindly accept the theology of their local spiritual elders (parents or pastor or teacher or friend)
or they will reject it soon after and search endlessly for their own theological identity. Both of these patterns are dangerous in their own ways.

Here on the forums we see it.
One person is blindly spewing out their indoctrinated talking points,
while another aggressively pushes a fringe or even heretical doctrine to make themselves feel like they alone know the truth.

Continue to seek the truth, but always remember to SUBMIT yourself to the Word,
rather than forcing the Word to submit to you, when it doesn't seem to fit to what you've already learned.

(Sidenote: the "preconceived ideas" often have very real reasons for existing. Often times, we have to understand why they believe these things before we can refute them. This practice has helped me quite a bit, and I have often ended up conceeding on an issue that I had been previously strongly against)

 

[Reborn]

You have the right attitude! The Berean mindset of testing the teachings against the Word.

I have found myself accepting and rejecting many of the views posted here, as I learn more.
I was a pre-tribber for many years, then went post trib, then went amill (no rapture), and now I'm mid-trib (pre wrath).

I could explain to you how I got to this view, but wiser men are on all sides of these issues.

I have found that young people (including my younger self) will either blindly accept the theology of their local spiritual elders (parents or pastor or teacher or friend)
or they will reject it soon after and search endlessly for their own theological identity. Both of these patterns are dangerous in their own ways.

Here on the forums we see it.
One person is blindly spewing out their indoctrinated talking points,
while another aggressively pushes a fringe or even heretical doctrine to make themselves feel like they alone know the truth.

Continue to seek the truth, but always remember to SUBMIT yourself to the Word,
rather than forcing the Word to submit to you, when it doesn't seem to fit to what you've already learned.

(Sidenote: the "preconceived ideas" often have very real reasons for existing. Often times, we have to understand why they believe these things before we can refute them. This practice has helped me quite a bit, and I have often ended up conceeding on an issue that I had been previously strongly against)

Great advice...always a pleasure chatting with you SolidGround.
Until the next one......take care.

 

[PlainWord]

Turkey [Asia Minor] will be allied with Satan's beast for certain [the Muslim Caliph] [Ezekiel 38] [Togarmah]

But the rising of Daniel's little horn seems to be in the core region of ancient Assyria [Nineveh province]

This is northwestern Mesopotamia Iraq/Levant today

Exactly, it starts there. Notice anything happening in this region of the Lion (Iraq), Bear (Iran), Leopard (Syria) today? Turkey and Iran will join forces with ISIS. ISIS will complete the conquest of Syria and Iraq and most likely Kuwait. Militant groups in several other countries have already sworn their allegiance to ISIS. We are watching this final BEAST empire (which will be the most terrible in history) come together before our very eyes.

 

[Straightshot]

The prophets have the exact view of what will take place in the region no doubt

And the current "Islamic State" lead by Al Baghdadi does look like the nesting

Time will tell .... it may be sooner than one might think, or further development is in the wind

It is the Lord who controls the schedule

I see nothing standing in the way for the time of the end to begin .... the coming tribulation same as the 70th week decreed for Israel

When this time lapse begins the stage will be set and all of the related events of the period will click off just as projected

 

[PlainWord]

"Great Tribulation, caused by the Man of Sin and his 10 kingdom alliance is of Satan and not the wrath of God, you might actually starting seeing the whole picture more clearly. But good job!!"


Thanks for the comment, but it is the Lord who brings the tribulation for His purposes

Satan's inclusion in the process is to be the Lord's dupe and eventual victim of the setting

Since the world has refused to believe the truth about the Lord, He will give them the devil [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12]

This should be apparent to the reader [Revelation 3:10; 14:8; 17:17-18; 19:2]

The coming tribulation is the Lord's doing, all of it [2550 continuous days] .... His hour [time] of trial and judgment against a fallen world of humanity [Psalms 2; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 6:12-17]

I believe that post tribulation theory is a faulty methodology used to interpret the prophetic scriptures for many reasons

Everything that happens on this planet and universe is permitted by GOD. Just as Satan's abuse and testing of Job was permitted by God. The tempting of Adam and Eve, the evil of Sodom, Hitler's Holocaust, you name it. God is in control and he allows everything that happens. God allowed Satan to kill His Son for His purpose but it was Satan (working through his human subjects) that did the killing and they will all pay for it. He even purposes bad things to happen such as the many conquests of Israel and their being led into slavery. But do not for one minute equate God allowing things for His purpose to Him actually doing these things.

God will allow the Great Tribulation and He gave us the Book of Revelation to foretell us what is to happen. God also told the prophets of the OT what would happen to Israel from Babylon to Christ to the destruction of the temple, to the scattering and gathering of his people and to the future events. Just because we are told of bad things doesn't mean God himself is doing them.

Did God destroy the Temple in AD 70? Did God place the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque on His Temple Mount which is the holiest place on earth? Was God behind the Tower of Babel? Did God purpose that people would worship Baal, Diana or Allah? Of course not as His first commandment was to worship no other God before Him. God is not responsible for all the sin in this world, Satan is.

The Great Tribulation will be a period of tremendous evil. Evil is NEVER of GOD. It is Satan's Wrath (because he was cast to earth and knows his time is short). We are told specifically and repeatedly that Satan wages war with and overcomes the Saints (us). We are told repeatedly to "have patience and to persevere." This would not be necessary if there was a pre-trib rapture. Christ tells us twice (Mark 13:23 and John 15:15) that He has "told us all things." But He never told us He was returning before the Tribulation.

Post Trib View is the clear teaching of the Word. It is Pre-Trib that runs contrary to so many clear teachings and it assumes many false things in order to make the theory work. Here are just some examples:

1. Christ teaches that we MUST endure Tribulation and be hated for His name's sake. He never reverses this teaching for the end times church.

2. Christ teaches that He returns AFTER the "tribulation of those days." He never tells of an earlier return.

3. Daniel teaches that this Fourth Beast Kingdom makes war with the saints and is overcoming them and that this continues right up until God returns (Dan 7:21-22).

4. Repeatedly we are told that God's wrath is in response to the Great Tribulation. God does not need to respond to His own actions.

5. There is no concept found of "being left behind." This idea is not found anywhere in the Bible.

6. There is no concept of a "Tribulation Saint." This is an invented term.

7. We are told there is a "falling away" before the Man of Sin is revealed. Pre-trib teaches a great revival as there has to be millions of new Christians on earth for the A/C to kill otherwise there could not be a Great Multitude in Heaven who "come out of the Great Tribulation).

8. Christ questions in Luke 18:8 that when He returns while He really find any faith on earth? This cannot be the case if He came earlier and "raptured" away hundreds of millions. Thus, this statement is consistent with most believers being killed or turned by Satan before His return.

9. There is no teaching of any living person being taken to heaven when Christ return, just a gathering to Him is taught.

10. We are told Christ comes to reign here on earth, so since Christ is coming here and we are gathered to Him here, we are staying with Him here.

11. If the Tribulation is the wrath of Satan and not the wrath of God then truly we are Not APPOINTED to God's wrath because we are gathered before HIS wrath is poured out in the bowls.

12. We are told repeatedly that divine wrath is in response to the evil that has been going on.

I am stuck by the similarities of today's Christian who preaches "PEACE and SAFETY" as if nothing will happen to them. They preach a snatching away and being spared Satan's Great Wrath even though such a lesson is not found. They do this thinking that if they state it enough and wish for it hard enough that it will come to pass. They put words in God's mouth, words He never spoke and words that run 180 contrary with what is taught. All of this is exactly as it was with the "prophets of the day" who preached the same PEACE and SAFETY right before they where led away captive to Babylon.

Ezek 13:

3 Thus says the Lord God: "Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 O Israel, your prophets are like foxes in the deserts. 5 You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the Lord. 6 They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, 'Thus says the Lord!' But the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a futile vision, and have you not spoken false divination? You say, 'The Lord says,' but I have not spoken." 8 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you," says the Lord God. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord God. 10 Because, indeed, because they have seduced My people, saying, 'Peace!' when there is no peace...

HISTORY REPEATS and the Church makes the same mistakes as Israel. This too is part of God's plan.

 

[PlainWord]

The prophets have the exact view of what will take place in the region no doubt

And the current "Islamic State" lead by Al Baghdadi does look like the nesting

Time will tell .... it may be sooner than one might think, or further development is in the wind

It is the Lord who controls the schedule

I see nothing standing in the way for the time of the end to begin .... the coming tribulation same as the 70th week decreed for Israel

When this time lapse begins the stage will be set and all of the related events of the period will click off just as projected

YES AGREED. However, there will be no snatching away for the church. There have been 24,000 Christians beheaded or sold into slavery and even sexual slavery since ISIS started. For them the Great Tribulation is now and God isn't behind their deaths.

For the first time in my life there is a man who fits the descriptions of the Man of Sin (who many call AntiChrist) on the world stage and he is from the correct location - Turkey. This man's name is Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

I have been studying this man and everything I've seen fits. He hates Israel and the west. He has a huge ego. He loves possessions. He uses magic and tricks to seduce his people. He wants to bring Turkey back to it's glory days of the Ottoman Empire. He is not a fan of the Saudis. He will not allow the US to launch attacks from Turkey against ISIS. Keep an eye on him.

The below article is less than 24 hours old.

Foreigners ‘like seeing our children die’, can’t help with Mid-East, says Erdogan — RT News

Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has urged Islamic countries to unite in order to solve “the biggest humanitarian and political crisis in their history,” according to AFP, citing the Turkish president’s speech in Istanbul on Thursday.
“The only condition to overcome the crisis in the Islamic world is unity, solidarity and alliance,” he said. “Believe me, we can resolve every problem as long as we are united.”
Erdogan says there is no use counting on help from the Western world.
“I speak openly, foreigners love oil, gold, diamonds, and the cheap labor force of the Islamic world,” he said. “They like the conflicts, fights and quarrels of the Middle East. Believe me, they don’t like us.”
“They look like friends, but they want us dead, they like seeing our children die,” the president went on.
Turkey has recently had its relations with the US strained over the Washington-led military operation against the Islamic State extremist group.
The US has been pushing for Turkey’s more active participation in the conflict, which Ankara has largely resisted, in its turn demanding support from Washington in bringing down Syria’s president Assad.

 

[Straightshot]

"was as this for my question?"


No ....... the answer to the post above about the RCC creating Islam