Who is the God of the Old Testament? Part 1

[Eccl12and13]

So why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament is? After all, it seems quite clear that God the Father is what was taught to us as the God of the Old Testament, right? Well, after learning and understanding who the true God of the Old Testament is, hopefully you will better understand both the Old and New Testaments.

Now when I say the God of the Old Testament, I am assuming that you have been brought up in a church, school or family who taught you that, for the most part, the God of the Old Testament is the one most of us has come to know as God the Father. Well let’s just see if that holds up to the doctrine of the bible.

Now some of what I present my go totally against what you have been taught, but once again, this is not my interpretation, it is the bible’s. I only ask that you pray and ask God for understanding. What ever you do, do not take my word on this. Search the scriptures for yourself and do as Paul says in I Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Now let us allow the bible, and the bible alone, establish Who is the God of the Old Testament.



Has Anyone Ever Seen God the Father?

It has long been said that no man has seen God at any time. And until I started reading the bible for myself, that was an assumption I held for quite a while. Now that I’ve read it, it is no longer an assumption. After reading the book of St. John in the New Testament (NT) and finding the following scriptures I would have to agree:

St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


Now the words (NO MAN), (AT ANY TIME) and (NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE….NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.) are very absolute! We can take the inspired word of God to mean just what it says; no man, EVER, has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at any time………So that would mean NEVER!! And let’s not forget who made (2) of those quotes! JESUS CHRIST!!


Did you notice the distinction that is made in the above verses? Both Jesus and the apostle John referred to God as, God the Father.

Now let’s search the scriptures for ourselves to find out what the bible has to say about anyone hearing or seeing God….at ANY TIME!

Let’s go to the Old Testament (OT) to see if anyone has either seen or heard the voice of God. Let’s start in Exodus.


Ex. 24
9. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


Now the elders may not have been able to see all of God, but we can conclude from the above scriptures that they were able to make out what looked to be feet and hands; that would be the SHAPE of God. But what did Jesus say?

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Let’s look further.

Ex. 33: 11 – And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

In this next verse the Lord has revealed parts of himself to Moses after Moses requested that his glory be made known to him.

Ex. 33: 23 – And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

On this occasion, God did not allow Moses to see His face. But seeing Gods backside would be seeing some sort of shape of God also.

Here are a few scriptures from the book of Numbers:

Num 12
6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold:

Once again, Moses may not have been able to see all of God but he was able to see God’s back parts and his similitude, or the shape of God. Also, when God spoke, Moses heard Gods words. Hearing the voice of God was not limited to Moses, let’s read;

Deut. 4:12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the mist of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Now after reading these scriptures it seems very evident that, not only did Moses see and hear the voice of the God of Israel, but at least seventy-three people saw God, and the whole nation of Israel heard the voice of God at Mount Sinai.

Let’s review:

NT: St. John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.
OT: Exod. 24: 10. And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

NT: St. John 6:46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
OT: Exod.24:11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

NT: St. John 5:37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
OT: Deut. 4:12. And the Lord spake unto you out of the mist of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.


So what do we have here? In the New Testament, Jesus himself said, NO MAN has seen God the Father AT ANY TIME, but in the Old Testament we find that Moses and at least seventy (70) elders saw and heard the God of Israel. Now what can we conclude from what we have just read above? What we do know, according to the scriptures, is this; if anyone has seen God, it was NOT God the Father. Could this be a contradiction? God forbid. Let’s continue to search the scriptures for the truth!!!!




So Who is the God of the Old Testament?

Now most of us realize that Jesus is God, but did you know that He is also your creator; the God of Old Testament? This will be proved next through the scriptures. Along with that, it will also be proved that the one know as God the Father has NEVER had any contact with mankind….. EVER!!! Now here is a test for you….will you believe man, or what you read in the scriptures? Let’s read Gods inspired word before deciding.

Let’s start in the book of Philippians (NT) 2: 5-8. Here, Paul is talking to the Philippians and telling them to have the same mind as Christ:

Phil 2
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So here we have Paul telling us that Jesus, who is God, found it not wrong to be equal with God, obviously God the Father, because what other God is there for Him to be equal to. The reason I can say that is because Jesus is the only one that became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Let’s go to St. John (NT) to get a better understanding of what we just read.

St. John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the life of men.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


After reading St. John we can understand why the statement in Philippians is true. Jesus (The Word) did not think it wrong to be equal to God (The Father) because, according to St. John1:1, he was God. We know the Word is Jesus Christ because verse 14 tells us that “, the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” The Word, in St. John, is the same person that, “..became obedient unto the death, even the death of the cross.” in Phil 2:8.

There was one thing I hope you did not miss. Who was it that made everything that was made? It was the Word.

St. John 1:3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And who is the Word? Jesus Christ. Now let’s go to Colossians (NT) to confirm this.

In this book we have Paul addressing the Colossians and encouraging them to stay strong in the faith, but not before letting them know whom it is that they should be thanking:

Col. 1
12. Giving thanks to the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
17. And he is above all things, and by him all things consist.


Here are two more scriptures to consider:


Hebrews 1
1.God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Obviously Paul is telling the listeners the exact same thing St John said. And what he is saying is that the person that we have come to know as the Word, or Jesus Christ, is the one that created everything, which we just read in (3) verses above; Col. l:17, Heb. 1:2 and Eph. 3:9.


Let’s reason together for a moment and review the facts we’ve found in the scriptures:


We know that Jesus Christ is God and found it not robbery to be equal to God (The Father). (NT) Phil 2:6.

We know that Jesus humbled himself and became obedient unto the death of the cross. (NT) Phil 2:8.

We know that the Word (Jesus Christ) was God. He was made flesh and dwelt among us. (NT) St. John 1: 1 & 14.

And finally we know that the Word made everything that was made. “ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (NT) Col 12:16.

At this point it should be quite clear as to what these scriptures are saying, but just incase, here it is in a nutshell:


Jesus Christ, also known as the Word, created everything that was created and he is GOD!!

I’m sure this may be new to you, but believe me, once you realize who the true God of the OT is, it should really change the way you view the entire bible.

Let’s read a few scriptures with the understanding of who we are actually dealing with.

Let’s look at the very first verse in the first book of the bible.

Now when we read, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”, according to the facts we just learned, who was it that created the heaven and the earth? That’s right, it was The Word. And we know the Word was God because we just proved it through the scriptures. And again in vs. 3 when it says, “And God said, Let there be light.,.,” once again it was The Word. Can you see where this is going?

Now I know this goes against all that most were taught, but like I said in the beginning, I’m just letting the scriptures interpret themselves. Let’s look further:

1) Gen 1: 27. So God created man in his own image,.,.,. The Word!

2) Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt
thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. The Word!

3) Ex 31
12. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
13. Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doeth sanctify you. The Word!

Lev 11
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beast which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. The Word!

Ex 20
1. And God spake all of these words, saying,
2. I am the Lord thy
God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,.,.,. The Word!


At this point you are probably saying to yourself, “Surely at some point in time, man has had some contact with God the Father!” But the fact is, AT NO TIME, HAS MAN, ANY MAN, HAD ANY CONTACT WITH GOD THE FATHER! And why can I make such a bold statement? Because Jesus Christ said in St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Let’s reason for a moment, Jesus specifically said, no one has heard the voice, nor seen the shape of GOD THE FATHER AT ANYTIME, that means NEVER!

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

But how can this be? We just read about people in the OT that saw the shape of God, talked with God, even had a meal with God. Now please hear me out with what I am about to say…….. either Jesus Christ lied when He said no one has ever heard or seen God the Father……or…….it was someone else the people heard and saw. The question is, if it was not God the Father, then who was it they saw?

After reading the scriptures above, the answer is quite obvious…….It was Jesus Christ who was the God of the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ, the creator of everything that was created that the people saw, heard and ate with.

Now if Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, which He is, that can only mean one thing: There is Jesus Christ, the only God man has ever known and ever had any contact with, and then there is the One that became known as God the Father, the “...invisible God…”, the one whose voice no man has ever heard or shape no man has ever seen. These two… that’s right (2), are distinct, separate beings, and they ALONE make up the Godhead,…. but that is for another time. For now, let’s read and learn more about Jesus Christ, The God of the Old Testament!


Continued in "Who is the God of the Old Testament? Part 1

 

[Eccl12and13]

. .

 

[spirit1st]

Jesus Christ is the GOD of the Old Testament !
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. In the flesh JESUS was the SON of GOD , But in HIS SPirit He was Always a part of GOD !

Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[johnluke]

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament as you have said.
Jesus Christ is not God the Father.
God the Father has been heard and has been seen by men. I'm not sure how you missed these scriptures in your study of the Bible, because these are 3 scriptures where God the Father is recorded as having contact with man.
Matthew 3:16-17 Jesus on earth separated from God the Father in heaven and all heard Him say "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
Mark 9:7 Peter, James and John kneeling by Jesus on the earth hears God the Father in the cloud say "This is my beloved Son, hear Him".
Acts 7:56 Stephen looks up into heaven and sees "Jesus standing next to God the Father". Stephen saw His form.

 

[Rock022]

Wao! that was a lot of writing, here is what I have come to learn:

In the old testament God is Lord, We never knew how he looked.

In the New Testament Jesus came and showed us the Father, and we saw his human body.

Old testament = Lord
New Testament = Father

 

[Bowman]

After reading the scriptures above, the answer is quite obvious…….It was Jesus Christ who was the God of the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ, the creator of everything that was created that the people saw, heard and ate with.

Where is the Triune God in anything that you wrote?

Seems you lost sight when you became fixated on the Son, to the exclusion of the Father and the Spirit.

The Creator God of the Holy Bible is Triune.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Where is the Triune God in anything that you wrote?

Seems you lost sight when you became fixated on the Son, to the exclusion of the Father and the Spirit.

The Creator God of the Holy Bible is Triune.

I know that is what you have been taught......but did you know there is only ONE place in all of God's word that tells exactly how The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all One?


Hopefully you read;

Who is the God of the Old Testament? Part 2

And then follow up with....

Are They really “One” or are they ALL on “One Accord“ ?


Not trying to change minds here.....just presenting the word of God in a way most have never been taught before. It's up to God on whether He will reveal His truth to you or not.

I pray you at least take the time to read and search the scriptures for yourself and pray to God for wisdom and understanding.


.

 

[Eccl12and13]

I know that is what you have been taught......but did you know there is only ONE place in all of God's word that tells exactly how The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all One?


Hopefully you read;

Who is the God of the Old Testament? Part 2

And then follow up with....

Are They really “One” or are they ALL on “One Accord“ ?


Not trying to change minds here.....just presenting the word of God in a way most have never been taught before. It's up to God on whether He will reveal His truth to you or not.

I pray you at least take the time to read and search the scriptures for yourself and pray to God for wisdom and understanding.


.

Here is another post that will clear up some issues also;


What does the bible say about God‘s ‘Holy' Spirit'?


.

 

[loveme1]

Having just shared this in our daily bread thread, i believe it will fit well here also for the Messiah puts it wonderfully indeed.


John 14

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament as you have said.
Jesus Christ is not God the Father.
God the Father has been heard and has been seen by men. I'm not sure how you missed these scriptures in your study of the Bible, because these are 3 scriptures where God the Father is recorded as having contact with man.
Matthew 3:16-17 Jesus on earth separated from God the Father in heaven and all heard Him say "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
Mark 9:7 Peter, James and John kneeling by Jesus on the earth hears God the Father in the cloud say "This is my beloved Son, hear Him".
Acts 7:56 Stephen looks up into heaven and sees "Jesus standing next to God the Father". Stephen saw His form.

Then YOU have just suggested what Jesus Christ said is lie because you STILL have these scriptures that MUST not contradict anything else in God's word;

St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


So...what do we do? We have to study, search and pray for wisdom and understanding from God.

But consider this.....there are numerous times throughout the bible where an angel of God spoke with all of the authority, and at some times, spoke as though he was God! Could it have been an angel that was heard? It HAD to be an angel of the Lord speaking for God, for Christ tells us, "...Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

There is a post that you can read that may clear some of this up;

"What does the bible say about God‘s ‘Holy' Spirit'?"


Now concerning what Stephan saw.....let's read God's word for clarification;

Acts 7
[55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
[56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

The scriptures tells us Stephen saw '...the glory of God...". Let's find just what it was that Stephen saw;

Exod. 16
[10] And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exod. 24
[17] And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Num. 14
[10] But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

2 Chr.5
[14] So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

Rev.15
[8] And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev.21
[23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


And again what did the scriptures say Stephen saw, "...looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God..."

It is clear that what Stephen saw was the light that emanates from God and not God Himself.


Readers....we cannot dismiss ANY of God's words. ALL of them MUST work together. There can be NO contradictions whatsoever. That means we must study to find the answers, but most would rather to just go with the status quo


.

 

[Bowman]

Let’s read a few scriptures with the understanding of who we are actually dealing with.


2) Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt
thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. The Word!

Who we are dealing with is the Triune Creator God, as revealed in the context of your example, as thus...


Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)

 

[johnluke]

Then YOU have just suggested what Jesus Christ said is lie because you STILL have these scriptures that MUST not contradict anything else in God's word;

St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


So...what do we do? We have to study, search and pray for wisdom and understanding from God.

But consider this.....there are numerous times throughout the bible where an angel of God spoke with all of the authority, and at some times, spoke as though he was God! Could it have been an angel that was heard? It HAD to be an angel of the Lord speaking for God, for Christ tells us, "...Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

There is a post that you can read that may clear some of this up;

"What does the bible say about God‘s ‘Holy' Spirit'?"


Now concerning what Stephan saw.....let's read God's word for clarification;

Acts 7
[55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
[56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

The scriptures tells us Stephen saw '...the glory of God...". Let's find just what it was that Stephen saw;

Exod. 16
[10] And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exod. 24
[17] And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Num. 14
[10] But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

2 Chr.5
[14] So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

Rev.15
[8] And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev.21
[23] And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


And again what did the scriptures say Stephen saw, "...looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God..."

It is clear that what Stephen saw was the light that emanates from God and not God Himself.


Readers....we cannot dismiss ANY of God's words. ALL of them MUST work together. There can be NO contradictions whatsoever. That means we must study to find the answers, but most would rather to just go with the status quo


.

I am going to post a reply to this information, then you can reply, but I will not reply again, because it is not worth the time to debate that the Bible is contradictory. It is not.

John 1:18
It is John the Baptist that said "no man hath seen God at any time".
John the Baptist died before Stephen saw the Father and the Son, so John's statement was true when he said it and so was Stephens. No contradiction.

John 5:37

It is very possible that the group of people that Jesus was talking to at this time, had not been present at the his baptism, where the Father clearly spoke for all to hear that "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". It could have been an angel, but I believe it was God the Father.
Also these words were spoken long before Stephen, so again Jesus could be telling the truth and Stephen could have also seen Jesus standing by the Father without any contradiction in scripture.

John 6:46

You are using this scripture to support the idea that "not that any man hath seen the Father". I use this same scripture to support the idea that "he which is of God, he hath seen the Father".
So I see this scripture overrides all scriptures that say no man hath seen God at any time because "men of God hath seen the Father". Besides it is also true that these words were said before Stephen saw Jesus standing next to God. So again what Jesus said is true and what Stephen said is true. No Biblical contradiction.

 

[Eccl12and13]

I am going to post a reply to this information, then you can reply, but I will not reply again, because it is not worth the time to debate that the Bible is contradictory. It is not.

John 1:18
It is John the Baptist that said "no man hath seen God at any time".
John the Baptist died before Stephen saw the Father and the Son, so John's statement was true when he said it and so was Stephens. No contradiction.

I see you did not read all of my post. Here is what you missed;

Readers....we cannot dismiss ANY of God's words. ALL of them MUST work together. There can be NO contradictions whatsoever.

Now let's read AGAIN what Jesus, not John the Baptist, said;

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


The truth of the matter is that God the Father has NEVER had any dealings with mankind, nor will He until ALL is complete....in other words not until ALL are spirit beings just as He is and He is dwelling here on earth with man.



.

 

[johnluke]

I see you did not read all of my post. Here is what you missed;




Now let's read AGAIN what Jesus, not John the Baptist, said;

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


The truth of the matter is that God the Father has NEVER had any dealings with mankind, nor will He until ALL is complete....in other words not until ALL are spirit beings just as He is and He is dwelling here on earth with man.



.

We must agree to disagree and that's ok because we are brothers in the gospel. I was interested in your thoughts that "not until ALL are spirit beings just as He is and He is dwelling here on earth with man". I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that when ALL is complete, men will be spirit beings just like God is a spirit being and we will all be dwelling on earth together as spirits? Please elaborate. Thanks. And if this is off-topic, please just delay a reply until it is appropriate.

 

[johnluke]

Who we are dealing with is the Triune Creator God, as revealed in the context of your example, as thus...


Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)

What Bible version are you quoting Exodus 3:1-6 from?

 

[johnluke]

Wao! that was a lot of writing, here is what I have come to learn:

In the old testament God is Lord, We never knew how he looked.

In the New Testament Jesus came and showed us the Father, and we saw his human body.

Old testament = Lord
New Testament = Father

In the Old Testament, I have found 3 scriptures that give us at least a partial description of the God of the Old Testament.

Exodus 24:10 "And they saw the God of Israel and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness". So at this time Moses and 70 Elders of Israel go into the mount and they have the great oppertunity to see the God of Israel. Now the only body part that is mentioned is his feet. But if they were able to see his feet, I suspect they were able to see what was attached to those feet also. It also said he had a clear look to him. But at least we know he has feet.

Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face as a man speak unto his friend". Now in this case you could possibly allegorize the words face to face and basically remove the description from meaning what it does, except that it adds the words "as a man speaketh unto his friend". Now it is more difficult to put "face to face" in an allegorical sense because the description has broadened and everyone, even a child can understand that Moses really had a face to face encounter with the Lord.


Exodus 33:23 "...thou shalt see my back parts, but my face shall not be seen". In this encounter with the Lord Moses was given a view of the Lord's back parts (back and shoulders). This is certainly one of the most interesting scriptures in the whoe Bible.

So now lets recap. In Ex. 24 we know that the Lord at least has feet. In Ex. 33 we know that the Lord has at least has a face. In Ex. 33 also we know that the Lord has back parts. From these descriptions, it does not take a great leap of faith to say the Lord of the Old Testament is in the form of a man. And why should that surprise any of us except Greek philosophers, because in Genesis 1:26 God says "let us make man in our image and in our likeness. Not just in his image (head, torso, legs, arms, hands and feet), but in his likeness. What does likeness mean. It means we are made of the same material he is made of. We are like him. Over the centuries this concept has been so allegorized by the so called doctors of religion and philosophy and mystic teachers that the truth has long been trampled under the avalanche of the "learned", but the simple truth is that God made man in his image and in his likesness, so that means that God looks just like man. Believe it or not, the scriptures uphold it. If you want to know what God looks like just look at his son Jesus Christ. One of the reasons he came to earth was to reveal the Father to us, in other words to let us know what the Father looks like. Jesus is the express image of God his Father. Jesus looked like any other man and so again the scriptures bear out what the Old Testament scriptures describe God to look like in the person of Jesus Christ. It is a fabulous study of the scriptures and worthy of you time to get to know God

 

[Bowman]

What Bible version are you quoting Exodus 3:1-6 from?

The Literal version...

 

[Eccl12and13]

I was interested in your thoughts that "not until ALL are spirit beings just as He is and He is dwelling here on earth with man". I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that when ALL is complete, men will be spirit beings just like God is a spirit being and we will all be dwelling on earth together as spirits? Please elaborate. Thanks. And if this is off-topic, please just delay a reply until it is appropriate.

Yes! That is what God's word teaches. Let's read;

Phil.3
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Now consider what Christ gave us at the mount of transfiguration...He was giving us an example of how we would be. Let's read;

Matt.17
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Now let's read how Daniel described those that were risen;

Dan.12
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Those that become spirit beings will shine as a star. Let's confirm;

Rev.22
[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And what about Moses after being in the presence of the Lord for over 40 days? He started to take on His nature...for Moses too started to shine as the firmament, causing him to have to wear a vail.

Exod.34
[29] And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
[30] And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Just from being in the presence of the Lord Moses started to become as Him.

This is the nature of spirit beings. This is what will become of those that overcome! Let's read;

1 Cor.15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We will have the same nature as God, thus we will be part of the God family.



Now let's read where God's final dwelling place will be;


Rev.21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Everything I read has God dwelling here on earth with man. It's where He as always desired to be.



.

 

[johnluke]

Yes! That is what God's word teaches. Let's read;

Phil.3
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Now consider what Christ gave us at the mount of transfiguration...He was giving us an example of how we would be. Let's read;

Matt.17
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Now let's read how Daniel described those that were risen;

Dan.12
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Those that become spirit beings will shine as a star. Let's confirm;

Rev.22
[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And what about Moses after being in the presence of the Lord for over 40 days? He started to take on His nature...for Moses too started to shine as the firmament, causing him to have to wear a vail.

Exod.34
[29] And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
[30] And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Just from being in the presence of the Lord Moses started to become as Him.

This is the nature of spirit beings. This is what will become of those that overcome! Let's read;

1 Cor.15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

We will have the same nature as God, thus we will be part of the God family.



Now let's read where God's final dwelling place will be;


Rev.21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Everything I read has God dwelling here on earth with man. It's where He as always desired to be.



.

I believe all you say
There is a question about what kind of a body we wil have after the resurrection. Even though I believe 1 Cor. 15:44 that our natural bodies are raised a spiritual body, the spiritual body is made up of flesh, bone, and our spirit. Not like our vile natural flesh and bone body, but a glorious immortal new resurrected flesh and bone body like the one Jesus has today.
I know this because this is exactly the spiritual body that the first resurrected man has and that is Jesus Christ. Read in Luke 24 about how he showed his new resurrected body to his apostles and others and how he let them touch him and he ate with them to prove the reality that his body was not just a spirit body, but was a tangible flesh and bone and spirit body. He took that same new resurrected flesh,bone,spirit body to heaven and sits on the right hand of the Father. He will come back to the earth in that same eternal body to judge the world and will dwell with us in our new resurrected flesh,bone,spirit bodies on the earth. It is a fascinating study to get to know God and his nature.