( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

[GaryA]

You claim Daniels AOD mentioned in Matthew 24:15 took place in 167BC, It didn't, a false teaching in error

Yes, it did. We can align history with the biblical record.

You claim Jesus wasn't speaking to a future audience, but was reflecting on the claimed AOD in 167BC, another false teaching in error.

He was speaking to the 'current' audience about a future 'event'. He was not telling them that the AoD was going to occur in the future. They were well-aware that the AoD had already occurred in 167 B.C. - the reference to the AoD was made to help them recognize the future 'event' - when it occurred - by identifying with what occurred. Because, it was identical to the occurrence of the AoD.

 

[Truth7t7]

Don't confuse the idea of the moment something begins with the idea of the length of it - they are two different things.

Matthew 24:21 is not saying that the 'great tribulation' would be a short period of time. The assumption that it is - by definition - a short period of time - is in error.

Gary the entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to answering the questions of the disciples in Matthew 24:3

(What Shall Be The Sign Of Thy Coming, And Of The End Of The World?)

Gary Matthew 24:33-36 Below Clearly Shows Your Claim Of A 1950+ Year Tribulation To Be False?

When The (Future) Audience Witnesses The Events, The Second Coming Is Near At The Doors.

You Claim It's Not At The Doors, But A 1950+ Year Tribulation And Waiting, (Historicism) Is A (False) Teaching In Error.

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[GaryA]

My complete response has been to the false teachings regarding the Olivet Discourse, and the claimed fulfillment of Daniels Abomination in 167BC, your claim of being (Off Topic) is unfounded.

Gary you run from direct debate on the scripture presented below why?

Your response has been as I have described and illustrated in previous posts.

I am not running from anything.

I prefer to 'discuss' a topic rather than 'debate' it.

 

[GaryA]

Gary the entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to answering the questions of the disciples in Matthew 24:3

(What Shall Be The Sign Of Thy Coming, And Of The End Of The World?)

And, He gives them more information than they ask for. He answers their questions - "and then some"...

He gives them an overview of the things that will occur from that time until His Second Coming.

The time frame for the "complete entirety" of the Olivet Discourse is a long period of time - not a short one.

It runs from the time of the Olivet Discourse (or, shortly thereafter) itself until the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

And, He gives them more information than they ask for. He answers their questions - "and then some"...

He gives them an overview of the things that will occur from that time until His Second Coming.

The time frame for the "complete entirety" of the Olivet Discourse is a long period of time - not a short one.

It runs from the time of the Olivet Discourse (or, shortly thereafter) itself until the Second Coming of Christ.

1950 years of tribulations representing the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be)?

The time from the event where the audience witnesses the events as stated will be (Short) to the second coming

(Near, Even AT The Doors)

Historicism falsely teaches there was a tribulation in 70AD, And the tribulation identified in Matthew 24:21 is ongoing to this present time, giving total Disregard to the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) and Matthew 24:33-36

(Near, Even AT The Doors)

Your claim that Matthew 24 represents thousands of years in historical interpretation is false, it represents the revealing of the Antichrist and roughly 3.5 years of the future tribulation that you disregard.

Matthew 24 is written in parallel teachings of the same future events, signs of the second coming and end of this world Matthew 24:3

1.) The Future Antichrist AOD Starts The 3.5 Year Tribulation Matthew 24:15

2.) The Future Great Tribulation, Brought By The Actions Of The Antichrist AOD, Matthew 24:16-21

3.) Immediately After The Future 3.5 Year Great Tribulation, Jesus Christ Returns In The Heavens Matthew 24:29-30

 

[GaryA]

IF you pay very close attention to how the Bible "defines" the start of the GT and the end of the GT - and - you look closely at the "details" surrounding those "definitions" - and - you are able to "let go" of the things you have "learned" (that are full of assumptions) about the End Times Scenario -- you WILL discover that the futurist and preterist views are both in error - because neither fully matches all of the "details" completely.

I am trying my best to help folks on here understand how that - the only way all of the "details" actually match in scripture is if the GT is a long period of time that started circa 70 A.D. and ends in the future.

This is why people assume that it must all be future or past - because, they refuse to examine all of the "details" exactly as scripture records them. Instead, they prefer to clutch tightly onto what they were taught, making assumptions about things that scripture does not actually say.

The answer is in the details.

IF you pay very close attention to how the Bible "defines" the start of the GT and the end of the GT - and - you look closely at the "details" surrounding those "definitions" - and - you are able to "let go" of the things you have "learned" (that are full of assumptions) about the End Times Scenario -- you WILL discover that the futurist and preterist views are both in error - because neither fully matches all of the "details" completely.

I am trying my best to help folks on here understand how that - the only way all of the "details" actually match in scripture is if the GT is a long period of time that started circa 70 A.D. and ends in the future.

This is why people assume that it must all be future or past - because, they refuse to examine all of the "details" exactly as scripture records them. Instead, they prefer to clutch tightly onto what they were taught, making assumptions about things that scripture does not actually say.

Until you are willing to put a microscope on the details to examine them carefully, you are not going to understand.

IF you pay very close attention to how the Bible "defines" the start of the GT and the end of the GT - and - you look closely at the "details" surrounding those "definitions" - and - you are able to "let go" of the things you have "learned" (that are full of assumptions) about the End Times Scenario -- you WILL discover that the futurist and preterist views are both in error - because neither fully matches all of the "details" completely.

I am trying my best to help folks on here understand how that - the only way all of the "details" actually match in scripture is if the GT is a long period of time that started circa 70 A.D. and ends in the future.

This is why people assume that it must all be future or past - because, they refuse to examine all of the "details" exactly as scripture records them. Instead, they prefer to clutch tightly onto what they were taught, making assumptions about things that scripture does not actually say.

People can "play their tape" all day - quote scripture all day - etc. etc. etc. - but, until you focus on the details, you are not going to arrive at the proper conclusion.

 

[Truth7t7]

The answer is in the details.


Until you are willing to put a microscope on the details to examine them carefully, you are not going to understand.


People can "play their tape" all day - quote scripture all day - etc. etc. etc. - but, until you focus on the details, you are not going to arrive at the proper conclusion.

I Need To Focus On Gary's Details, Then And Only Then Will I Be Enlightened?

We Will Disagree, Matthew 24:15-31 Are Future Events Unfulfilled, Historicism's Eschatology Is Just Another False Teaching Of Man, To Be Added To The Long List Of False Teachings.

Matthew 24:15, AOD (Future)
Matthew 24:21, Great Tribulation (Future)
Matthew 24:29-30, Second Coming (Future)

 

[GaryA]

I Need To Focus On Gary's Details, Then And Only Then Will I Be Enlightened?

It has nothing to do with Gary - it has everything to do with Scripture.

Gary is not that important. What the Bible really actually says - is.

 

[GaryA]

Historicism falsely teaches there was a tribulation in 70AD, And the tribulation identified in Matthew 24:21 is ongoing to this present time, ...

There was definitely (according to the historical record) "a tribulation" in 70 A.D. - there is no doubt about that!

Whether it is identifiably associated with the 'great tribulation' referred to in Matthew 24:21 is a separate issue/question.

 

[Truth7t7]

There was definitely (according to the historical record) "a tribulation" in 70 A.D. - there is no doubt about that!

Whether it is identifiably associated with the 'great tribulation' referred to in Matthew 24:21 is a separate issue/question.

Gary you clearly identifies the Great Tribulation with Matthew 24:21, as verses 23-26 you quote below are inseparable, (Truth & Honesty) right?


Quote Below GaryA On Sep 8, 2019 in post #50 (Why I believe the Great Tribulation started in 70AD)


Quote GaryA:

"Do you recognize and understand that these verses are describing things happening during the GT? :

Matthew 24:23-26
Mark 13:21-23"

 

[Yahshua]

1950 years of tribulations representing the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be)?

The time from the event where the audience witnesses the events as stated will be (Short) to the second coming

(Near, Even AT The Doors)

Historicism falsely teaches there was a tribulation in 70AD, And the tribulation identified in Matthew 24:21 is ongoing to this present time, giving total Disregard to the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) and Matthew 24:33-36

(Near, Even AT The Doors)

Your claim that Matthew 24 represents thousands of years in historical interpretation is false, it represents the revealing of the Antichrist and roughly 3.5 years of the future tribulation that you disregard.

Matthew 24 is written in parallel teachings of the same future events, signs of the second coming and end of this world Matthew 24:3

1.) The Future Antichrist AOD Starts The 3.5 Year Tribulation Matthew 24:15

2.) The Future Great Tribulation, Brought By The Actions Of The Antichrist AOD, Matthew 24:16-21

3.) Immediately After The Future 3.5 Year Great Tribulation, Jesus Christ Returns In The Heavens Matthew 24:29-30

It was indeed future when it was told to them.

While I agree with Gary that the 167BC event was an AoD (one of several), I differ with Garey on what the specific AoD was that the Messiah was referring to...but that doesn't disqualify the rest of the view as accurate.

I haven't read all of this thread so Gary may have already mentioned the point I'm about to make, but "tribulation" and even "the great tribulation" aren't proper nouns...but believers have made them so. In other words, it's not...

~~~The Great Tribulation!!! (fire and flames...) ~~~

Rather, the Messiah is explaining that a time was coming where there would be terrible persecution of His people. But because of our tendency to make doctrines out of statements in scripture we've incorrectly morphed an explained timeframe (which holds a series of terrible tragedies) into a single fixed event labeled "***THE TRIBULATION***".

When we do this we're forced to disqualify other events as "not terrible enough", or "not harmful enough", "not tragic enough" or "not great enough"...based on our opinion as outside observers.

The king James scribes picked the word "tribulation", but it's an archaic word that simply means suffering or persecution (just like the word "beast" simply means animal).

There were other prophets that spoke of this terrible time of suffering that would fall on their people too:

Jeremiah called it Jacob's Trouble...

Ezekiel called it Their Calamity...

...and of course Daniel called it "a time of trouble" like I referenced in my last post.

Each one, including the Messiah, warned about a series of unfortunate events that would befall this people that would never be matched since ever there was a nation of people on God's earth...and it would result in their scattering to the four corners of the world and the destruction of them as a single nation of people.

I encourage us to step back from our firmly held eschatology and just dedicate a day to reading up on everything that has happened to the people since the temple was destroyed, through to today. It's incredible and tragic.

Truly, no other nation has gone through such a SERIES of terrible events.

 

[GaryA]

Gary you clearly identifies the Great Tribulation with Matthew 24:21, as verses 23-26 you quote below are inseparable, (Truth & Honesty) right?


Quote Below GaryA On Sep 8, 2019 in post #50 (Why I believe the Great Tribulation started in 70AD)


Quote GaryA:

"Do you recognize and understand that these verses are describing things happening during the GT? :

Matthew 24:23-26
Mark 13:21-23"

Yes . . . ? So? And?

Did you misunderstand my previous post in this thread?

 

[Truth7t7]

It was indeed future when it was told to them.

While I agree with Gary that the 167BC event was an AoD (one of several), I differ with Garey on what the specific AoD was that the Messiah was referring to...but that doesn't disqualify the rest of the view as accurate.

I haven't read all of this thread so Gary may have already mentioned the point I'm about to make, but "tribulation" and even "the great tribulation" aren't proper nouns...but believers have made them so. In other words, it's not...

~~~The Great Tribulation!!! (fire and flames...) ~~~

Rather, the Messiah is explaining that a time was coming where there would be terrible persecution of His people. But because of our tendency to make doctrines out of statements in scripture we've incorrectly morphed an explained timeframe (which holds a series of terrible tragedies) into a single fixed event labeled "***THE TRIBULATION***".

When we do this we're forced to disqualify other events as "not terrible enough", or "not harmful enough", "not tragic enough" or "not great enough"...based on our opinion as outside observers.

The king James scribes picked the word "tribulation", but it's an archaic word that simply means suffering or persecution (just like the word "beast" simply means animal).

There were other prophets that spoke of this terrible time of suffering that would fall on their people too:

Jeremiah called it Jacob's Trouble...

Ezekiel called it Their Calamity...

...and of course Daniel called it "a time of trouble" like I referenced in my last post.

Each one, including the Messiah, warned about a series of unfortunate events that would befall this people that would never be matched since ever there was a nation of people on God's earth...and it would result in their scattering to the four corners of the world and the destruction of them as a single nation of people.

I encourage us to step back from our firmly held eschatology and just dedicate a day to reading up on everything that has happened to the people since the temple was destroyed, through to today. It's incredible and tragic.

Truly, no other nation has gone through such a SERIES of terrible events.

The events seen below in Luke didn't take place in 70AD

(When These Things Begin To Come To Pass)

Sun, Moon, Stars, Heavens Shaken, Visible Literal Coming Of Jesus Christ In The Clouds.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Truth7t7]

It was indeed future when it was told to them.

While I agree with Gary that the 167BC event was an AoD (one of several), I differ with Garey on what the specific AoD was that the Messiah was referring to...but that doesn't disqualify the rest of the view as accurate.

I haven't read all of this thread so Gary may have already mentioned the point I'm about to make, but "tribulation" and even "the great tribulation" aren't proper nouns...but believers have made them so. In other words, it's not...

~~~The Great Tribulation!!! (fire and flames...) ~~~

Rather, the Messiah is explaining that a time was coming where there would be terrible persecution of His people. But because of our tendency to make doctrines out of statements in scripture we've incorrectly morphed an explained timeframe (which holds a series of terrible tragedies) into a single fixed event labeled "***THE TRIBULATION***".

When we do this we're forced to disqualify other events as "not terrible enough", or "not harmful enough", "not tragic enough" or "not great enough"...based on our opinion as outside observers.

The king James scribes picked the word "tribulation", but it's an archaic word that simply means suffering or persecution (just like the word "beast" simply means animal).

There were other prophets that spoke of this terrible time of suffering that would fall on their people too:

Jeremiah called it Jacob's Trouble...

Ezekiel called it Their Calamity...

...and of course Daniel called it "a time of trouble" like I referenced in my last post.

Each one, including the Messiah, warned about a series of unfortunate events that would befall this people that would never be matched since ever there was a nation of people on God's earth...and it would result in their scattering to the four corners of the world and the destruction of them as a single nation of people.

I encourage us to step back from our firmly held eschatology and just dedicate a day to reading up on everything that has happened to the people since the temple was destroyed, through to today. It's incredible and tragic.

Truly, no other nation has gone through such a SERIES of terrible events.

Questions to understand your beliefs?

1.) Do you believe in a future literal return of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

2.) Do you believe in a future literal bodily resurrection of the believer?

3.) Do you believe in a future eternal New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes . . . ? So? And?

Did you misunderstand my previous post in this thread?

You identify Matthew 24:21 as the Great Tribulation

Please discuss how the direct instruction given by Jesus Christ Below In Urgency, Pertains To A Tribulation You Claim Started In 70AD, And Is Continuing Into The Future, 1950+ Years?

1.) Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Shall See)
2.) Matthew 24:16 (Then Let Them Which Be In Judea Flee)
3.) Matthew 24:17-20 (Urgency, Immediate)
4.) Matthew 24:21 (For Then Shall Be Great Tribulation)

Matthew 24:15-23KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

 

[Yahshua]

The events seen below in Luke didn't take place in 70AD

(When These Things Begin To Come To Pass)

Sun, Moon, Stars, Heavens Shaken, Visible Literal Coming Of Jesus Christ In The Clouds.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Of course, Luke 21:25-28 didn't take place in 70 AD...I 100% agree with you.

This is exactly what I meant when I said the tribulation isn't a single event but a series of events. The Messiah explained about a series of events that would happen to His people, initiated by the 70 AD destruction (actually, initiated first by His apostles' persecution by Rome) that would span through history to the Son of Man appearing in the clouds at the end of the age.

...It's the same as when Daniel was given the vision of Nebuchadnezzar's statue and then the vision of the four beasts. Each vision given to Daniel was a *summary* timeline starting from Daniel's time and spanning through history to the end of the age when the Son of Man erects His everlasting kingdom.

The prophecy given by the Messiah works the same way starting at His apostles' persecution and ending with the Son of Man coming. in the clouds. Remember God doesn't change and Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. They show that they're in control of human history.

-----

Questions to understand your beliefs?

1.) Do you believe in a future literal return of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

2.) Do you believe in a future literal bodily resurrection of the believer?

3.) Do you believe in a future eternal New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem?

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

And to answer your questions even further, I believe we are living through verses 25 & 26 of Luke 21, RIGHT NOW. Everything before verses 25 & 26 is our past (but was the Apostles' future when it was told to them). Right now - as in the last few years or decade or so - we've been witnessing amazing signs in the heavens with the sun, moon, and stars.

And on earth, we've been witnessing the distress of nations with perplexity (i.e. confusion about what's going on...) and the seas and waves roaring (i.e. strange weather...), people's hearts failing them for fear because of all that's happening on the earth right now as the powers of heaven are currently shaking loose. Look at this year alone.

----

By the way, the word "distress" is used in Luke 21:23 while the word "tribulation" is used in Matthew 24:21 but both refer to the same great calamity that was going to fall on the Messiah's people.

----

So from my perspective:

- Apostles persecuted/killed (1st century AD)
- Temple destroyed (70 AD)
- A timeframe of great distress on the chosen people, including their scattering (from 70AD to middle ages to present time)
- Astronomical signs and earthly signs (today)
- distress on the nations (today)
- The 2nd coming of the Son of Man (very next event upon us)

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course, Luke 21:25-28 didn't take place in 70 AD...I 100% agree with you.

This is exactly what I meant when I said the tribulation isn't a single event but a series of events. The Messiah explained about a series of events that would happen to His people, initiated by the 70 AD destruction (actually, initiated first by His apostles' persecution by Rome) that would span through history to the Son of Man appearing in the clouds at the end of the age.

...It's the same as when Daniel was given the vision of Nebuchadnezzar's statue and then the vision of the four beasts. Each vision given to Daniel was a *summary* timeline starting from Daniel's time and spanning through history to the end of the age when the Son of Man erects His everlasting kingdom.

The prophecy given by the Messiah works the same way starting at His apostles' persecution and ending with the Son of Man coming. in the clouds. Remember God doesn't change and Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. They show that they're in control of human history.

-----



1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

And to answer your questions even further, I believe we are living through verses 25 & 26 of Luke 21, RIGHT NOW. Everything before verses 25 & 26 is our past (but was the Apostles' future when it was told to them). Right now - as in the last few years or decade or so - we've been witnessing amazing signs in the heavens with the sun, moon, and stars.

And on earth, we've been witnessing the distress of nations with perplexity (i.e. confusion about what's going on...) and the seas and waves roaring (i.e. strange weather...), people's hearts failing them for fear because of all that's happening on the earth right now as the powers of heaven are currently shaking loose. Look at this year alone.

----

By the way, the word "distress" is used in Luke 21:23 while the word "tribulation" is used in Matthew 24:21 but both refer to the same great calamity that was going to fall on the Messiah's people.

----

So from my perspective:

- Apostles persecuted/killed (1st century AD)
- Temple destroyed (70 AD)
- A timeframe of great distress on the chosen people, including their scattering (from 70AD to middle ages to present time)
- Astronomical signs and earthly signs (today)
- distress on the nations (today)
- The 2nd coming of the Son of Man (very next event upon us)

Thanks For The Detailed Response On Your Belief

Do you claim Luke 21:25-28 & Matthew 24:29-30 Below Are Different Events?

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[GaryA]

It was indeed future when it was told to them.

While I agree with Gary that the 167BC event was an AoD (one of several), I differ with Garey on what the specific AoD was that the Messiah was referring to...but that doesn't disqualify the rest of the view as accurate.

I haven't read all of this thread so Gary may have already mentioned the point I'm about to make, but "tribulation" and even "the great tribulation" aren't proper nouns...but believers have made them so. In other words, it's not...

~~~The Great Tribulation!!! (fire and flames...) ~~~

Rather, the Messiah is explaining that a time was coming where there would be terrible persecution of His people. But because of our tendency to make doctrines out of statements in scripture we've incorrectly morphed an explained timeframe (which holds a series of terrible tragedies) into a single fixed event labeled "***THE TRIBULATION***".

When we do this we're forced to disqualify other events as "not terrible enough", or "not harmful enough", "not tragic enough" or "not great enough"...based on our opinion as outside observers.

The king James scribes picked the word "tribulation", but it's an archaic word that simply means suffering or persecution (just like the word "beast" simply means animal).

There were other prophets that spoke of this terrible time of suffering that would fall on their people too:

Jeremiah called it Jacob's Trouble...

Ezekiel called it Their Calamity...

...and of course Daniel called it "a time of trouble" like I referenced in my last post.

Each one, including the Messiah, warned about a series of unfortunate events that would befall this people that would never be matched since ever there was a nation of people on God's earth...and it would result in their scattering to the four corners of the world and the destruction of them as a single nation of people.

I encourage us to step back from our firmly held eschatology and just dedicate a day to reading up on everything that has happened to the people since the temple was destroyed, through to today. It's incredible and tragic.

Truly, no other nation has gone through such a SERIES of terrible events.

I have indeed made explanation about how Christians - and not Jesus - made it into the 'event' we call 'The Great Tribulation'.

(I do not believe that I have done so in this thread.)

Of course, the reason we have done this is because the Bible does in fact describe for us what marks the beginning of it as well as what marks the end of it. And, it makes it convenient for us to communicate it in terms of the overall time frame - from beginning to end.

However, it is vitally important that we properly align these marks in time with history - past, present, and future.

Thanks for posting this. It is definitely worthwhile for this discussion.

 

[GaryA]

The events seen below in Luke didn't take place in 70AD

(When These Things Begin To Come To Pass)

Sun, Moon, Stars, Heavens Shaken, Visible Literal Coming Of Jesus Christ In The Clouds.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I totally agree that the things mentioned in these verses in Luke did not take place in 70 A.D. - they occur after the end of the 'Great Tribulation'.

 

[GaryA]

Questions to understand your beliefs?

1.) Do you believe in a future literal return of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

2.) Do you believe in a future literal bodily resurrection of the believer?

3.) Do you believe in a future eternal New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem?

I know this was not directed to me - however - my answers are: yes, yes, yes