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C
Seriously some random guy on a forum like this one. Have you ever asked a Calvinist what they believe? I have and what that guy is claiming is a load of crap. And don't get me wrong I don't agree with the Calvinists either on predestination, but its much less off track than what this guy is claiming.
J
Scott. You should just give up. We, the Robot Army Collective Hive Mind, are coming for you.
We will assimilate you to the hive.
On another note: I read over the thread, and he did beat up quite a few straw men, and there were many Ad Hominem Fallacies had that day. Let alone Red Herrings, Assuming the Conclusion, or any others.
Kind of hard to argue against illogical ramblings.
We will assimilate you to the hive.
On another note: I read over the thread, and he did beat up quite a few straw men, and there were many Ad Hominem Fallacies had that day. Let alone Red Herrings, Assuming the Conclusion, or any others.
Kind of hard to argue against illogical ramblings.
J
Predestination only seems absurd if one does not take into account the fact that God knows Past, Present, and Future, and that what is in the future cannot change because he knows it's end-point. (kind of hard to foil God's plans, ya know?)
Also, Matthew 10:29
"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father."
The only issue of absurdity, is trying to reconcile the seeming freedom of choice, with the maximal sovereignthy and causailty of God (see above verse for causality).
Also, Matthew 10:29
"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father."
The only issue of absurdity, is trying to reconcile the seeming freedom of choice, with the maximal sovereignthy and causailty of God (see above verse for causality).
C
Yea I think the confusion is over the word Predestination itself, its in the bible so people just need to get over it and try and understand why its in there. Again I don't agree with what I have heard from the calvinists on this subject, but if God knows all, He knows what we will choose. This does not take away our choice, but points out that God knows what you will choose. As it says in Ephesians 2:10, God has prepared good works for us to do, does this mean that we had no choice in the matter? No exactly the opposite, God takes our choice which he foreknew and gives us ways to respond to him in love. Predestination by way of foreknowledge
J
Yea I think the confusion is over the word Predestination itself, its in the bible so people just need to get over it and try and understand why its in there. Again I don't agree with what I have heard from the calvinists on this subject, but if God knows all, He knows what we will choose. This does not take away our choice, but points out that God knows what you will choose. As it says in Ephesians 2:10, God has prepared good works for us to do, does this mean that we had no choice in the matter? No exactly the opposite, God takes our choice which he foreknew and gives us ways to respond to him in love. Predestination by way of foreknowledge
S
Scott. You should just give up. We, the Robot Army Collective Hive Mind, are coming for you.
We will assimilate you to the hive.
On another note: I read over the thread, and he did beat up quite a few straw men, and there were many Ad Hominem Fallacies had that day. Let alone Red Herrings, Assuming the Conclusion, or any others.
Kind of hard to argue against illogical ramblings.
We will assimilate you to the hive.
On another note: I read over the thread, and he did beat up quite a few straw men, and there were many Ad Hominem Fallacies had that day. Let alone Red Herrings, Assuming the Conclusion, or any others.
Kind of hard to argue against illogical ramblings.
Justification of the sin, not justification of the sinner.
No repentance on Calvin's part.
C
Did Calvin sin in prosecuting Servetus, maybe, who are we to say, are we God. Did Calvin kill Servetus? No, yes he prosecuted him and from all accounts wanted him out of the way, but a jury determined Servetus' death. To claim Calvin killed him is like saying every prosecuter who ever lived are murderers if the prosecuted a case that ended in the death penalty. Was Calvin wrong in his hatred of Servetus, I would say yes, but how is your hatred of him and anyone calling themselves a calvinist any different, really?
S
I do not hate John Calvin. I hate his doctrines: Calvinism. I hate heresy. I hate my sins. I hate it when I sin. We all have sinned. We all need God's mercy (Titus 3:5), and we don't deserve or merit it. It's God's gift to us. Why do you assume I hate Calvin? That is bearing false witness against me.
Scripture says, "He that hateth his brother is a murderer". Calvin apparently really did hate Servetus.
Calvin is like Saul of Tarsus. Saul was consenting unto Stephen's death. That made Saul culpable of Stephen's death. If Saul was held accountable, why would Calvin not be held accountable. But Saul repented, was saved by Christ, and so was forgiven. Did Calvin ever apologize or repent for his role in having Servetus killed?
I have found that it is the Calvinists who hate non-Calvinists. I have experienced this personally in the attitude of at least one Calvinist who said some very hateful things against me.
Calvinism can become a kind of Pharisaism. A sin we all need to avoid.
Self-righteousness is not the way to go. May God be merciful unto us sinners. God have mercy on us.
Scripture says, "He that hateth his brother is a murderer". Calvin apparently really did hate Servetus.
Calvin is like Saul of Tarsus. Saul was consenting unto Stephen's death. That made Saul culpable of Stephen's death. If Saul was held accountable, why would Calvin not be held accountable. But Saul repented, was saved by Christ, and so was forgiven. Did Calvin ever apologize or repent for his role in having Servetus killed?
I have found that it is the Calvinists who hate non-Calvinists. I have experienced this personally in the attitude of at least one Calvinist who said some very hateful things against me.
Calvinism can become a kind of Pharisaism. A sin we all need to avoid.
Self-righteousness is not the way to go. May God be merciful unto us sinners. God have mercy on us.
C
Just to clear things up, while Calvin himself did not execute Servetus, it was Calvin who ordered the execution. Those who performed the execution were just following orders.
The same could be said about Christ's crucifixion. While it was the Romans who carried out the crucifixion, it was the religious order of the day which ordered Christ's death. Pilate washed his hands because he wanted nothing to do with it.
The same could be said about Christ's crucifixion. While it was the Romans who carried out the crucifixion, it was the religious order of the day which ordered Christ's death. Pilate washed his hands because he wanted nothing to do with it.
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C
To say 'Someone sinned' is a serious understatement of what happened.
Someone died!
Someone will never be given a second chance to make things right with God!
Someone could be in hell!
I hope this helps to remind us the seriousness of what happened that day.
This why I refuse to acknowledge Calvin's ideas on 'the elect'. Just because God chose us from the from the foundations of the world does not give us the right to kill and quite possibly send someone to hell anyone who might disagree with us.
Someone died!
Someone will never be given a second chance to make things right with God!
Someone could be in hell!
I hope this helps to remind us the seriousness of what happened that day.
This why I refuse to acknowledge Calvin's ideas on 'the elect'. Just because God chose us from the from the foundations of the world does not give us the right to kill and quite possibly send someone to hell anyone who might disagree with us.
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C
Calvin's under emphasis on the seriousness of sin is another reason why I do not subscribe to his teachings. While I would have to investigate this assumption further, I tend to believe that when Luther warned his followers of the dangers of Antinomianism, he could have very well been referring to Calvinism.
S
The Bible teaches Divine Predestination, but not Double Predestination. It makes all the difference in the world and in the world to come. God does not make people sin. Calvinism disagrees. It is the inescapable conclusion of believing God causes everything. If God causes everything, He must cause sin, and be responsible when someone sins. It is a false view of Divine Sovereignty as Divine Causality. It's an overextension of Sovereignty. God's Sovereignty is not separate from His love, and His will is to love, not to cause evil. God cannot work against Himself.
Evil is against God, so God cannot cause it. It is impossible for God to do anything unholy, or act against His holy, loving nature. He cannot tolerate evil. That is why it is true, not only is there a heaven, there is a hell.
God does not predestine anyone to go to hell.
God is love. God is light. God is Sovereign.
Evil is against God, so God cannot cause it. It is impossible for God to do anything unholy, or act against His holy, loving nature. He cannot tolerate evil. That is why it is true, not only is there a heaven, there is a hell.
God does not predestine anyone to go to hell.
God is love. God is light. God is Sovereign.
S
According to Calvinism, predestination is predetermination of everything. Everything. Thus, Calvinism makes God the author of sin. And not the devil and his angels, and fallen men, Adam and Eve, and the whole human race that sins. That is blasphemy against a (the) Holy God. God holds all who sin responsible for their sins, and accountable: for men and women, He tells them to repent, and seek Him and His salvation and mercy. He wants to save all human beings (2 Peter 3:9). He has cursed the devil and his angels.
Calvinism is serious heresy.
Calvinism is serious heresy.