why cessationism is wrong: good article

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convallaria

Banned
#21
Jul 1, 2015
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#21
ember said:
the biggest problem I have with this article, is that the majority of Christians, IMO, would not have A clue how to test anything and that, sadly, includes many who do believe in the gifts. They test nothing and accept anything spiritual as being from God while operating on the wrong assumption that God would never allow them to be deceived.
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I do agree with that. But I am ever grateful that the Lord doesn't want us to understand everything first before He gives it to us: the understanding comes by and by and we have to learn how to describe what is happening to us, which is not always easy and lays us open to misunderstandings.

It is like on the other thread when we were giving our testimonies of miraculous interventions while we were speaking in tongues. I knew at the time someone would want to shoot us down in flames, but however approximate our explanations, none of us can doubt that God did something awesome, and we were involved in the process! How amazing is that.

Generally in these things I feel it is better to give a certain latitude and believe the best...I would much rather do that than join the ranks of finger pointers who seem to smack everyone down who operates in a way they do not understand.

:)
 
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convallaria

Banned
#22
Jul 1, 2015
584
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#22
notuptome said:
So shall be saved is totally different from saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Of course it is LOL! Don't tell me now that you believe you were already saved all along because you had no choice in the matter?
 
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pottersclay

Guest
#23
#23
I got it Jesus is the gift that keeps on giving. Amen
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#25
#25
notuptome said:
So shall be saved is totally different from saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Yup. In 1970 I was "shall be saved."

In 1972, I was saved.

In 2015, I still am saved.

Time works like that. God is Time's master. We are not.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#26
Nov 24, 2012
30,716
3,653
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#26
notuptome said:
So shall be saved is totally different from saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Same except in timing.
You didn't show any Scriptures where it says that the gifts "have ceased" only "shall cease".
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#27
Nov 24, 2012
30,716
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#27
notuptome said:
There is no scriptural basis for tongues as exhibited in the modern church. Tongues are a sign for Israel. Gentiles comprise most of the modern church and tongues were never for them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Tell the Corinthians that.
 
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mpaper345

Banned
#28
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
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#28
Prophesy could not have ceased because there are things in the Bible that are still future events,especially the beast kingdom,which God warns the saints to not be deceived when the world tries to solve their own problems,saying peace and safety,for it is not the operation of God,and not caused by God to have peace on earth.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#29
#29
mpaper345 said:
Prophesy could not have ceased because there are things in the Bible that are still future events,especially the beast kingdom,which God warns the saints to not be deceived when the world tries to solve their own problems,saying peace and safety,for it is not the operation of God,and not caused by God to have peace on earth.
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There's a beast kingdom? Never heard that one before. Mind explaining?
 
Galatians2-20

Galatians2-20

Senior Member
#30
Mar 17, 2013
261
19
18
#30
In an earlier post, I gave a brief account of the history of Cessationism and how it was created in the midst of a belief system that embraces many beliefs that most Protestant believers openly reject. However, I have yet to see a single advocate of Cessationism defend their position in light of the information that I presented. Why is that?
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
#31
#31
Galatians2-20 said:
Sir, please show biblical proof that any gifts have ceased. There simply is none.

Read Church history people. In it's infancy, Cessationism was created as part of a much larger belief system. When persecution of Christians began to ease in the later 3rd & early 4th centuries, the Eastern Orthodox Church believed that they had crossed over from the "Church Age" into the Millinnial dispensation spoken of in the later chapters of the book of Revelation. They then began to teach that the promised Millennial Kingdom, that Jesus promised would come after His return, had come and they were that Church. We now call this belief Amillennialism. They believed that, because "the perfect church" had come, the gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed. Emperor Constantine would embrace this view when he established Roman Catholicism.

The Orthodox Church, as well as the Roman Catholics shortly after, would begin to reinterpret scripture to accomodate to this new belief that the promised Millennial Kingdom had come thus all of scripture had been fulfilled. Cessationism, Praying to Saints, exalting of the Virgin Mary, etc. were all created during this period of reinterpretting scripture in order to accomodate to this new Millennial dispensation that they believe had come. Basically, both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are guilty of making the same mistake that the Jews had made during the Babylonian Exile.

During the exile, Jews began to reinterpret scripture to accomodate their new living situation. The Pharisees, Saducees, Synogoges, and the Oral Law (now known as the Talmud) had all been created during this time. Jesus Himself staunchly opposed these new beliefs and it was that opposition which drove the Pharisees to have Jesus crucified.

If you do not subscribe to Amillennialism or Preterism, there is absolutely no reason to embrace Cessationism. The belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased because we now have "the perfect word of God" in the form of the complete cannon of scripture (ie. the Bible) is a fairly recent belief, a new spin on the the Amillennial belief that "the perfect" has already come. However, there is only one that is perfect. His name is Jesus and I think we all can agree that His second coming has yet to occur.
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New American Standard Bible
Erastus remained at Corinth, but Trophimus I left sick at Miletus.

New American Standard Bible
No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

The 1000 year reign is yet future. the only millennial kingdom that has come is satans counterfeit reign.

Pauls gift of healing was fading and he never mentions tongues in his later epistles.

The perfect is not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is never referred to in the NEUTER gender. Christ is always in the masculine gender, He is not a thing or an it.
 
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Atwood

Senior Member
#32
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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#32
Temporary Spiritual Gifts

Question is whether or not there are temporary spiritual gifts. Bezalel, for example, had a special filling of the Spirit in the OT for building the Tabernacle. So far as the record goes, I don't know
of another instance of this gift in the OT.

Is there anyone who thinks that when tax time comes, he should go & fish & look for a gold
coin in the fish's mouth? If you drop an axe head into a river, can you make it swim?
Can you call down fire from Heaven to burn up your enemies?

I find in 1 Cor 13 three spiritual gifts said to be temporary: prophecy, languages, & knowledge.

8 Love never faileth: but whether there be
prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be languages, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when that which is perfect is come, [the entire Bible] that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

Now to prove me wrong, let us have a test, like Elijah & the prophets of Baal.
You go fetch me 2 men who have the gift of interpretation of languages & 1 man who you allege has the gift of languages (misleadingly called "tongues").
You put your language speaker at the front of the auditorium & 2 interpreters at the back, on opposite sides of a large room with paper & pen. After the charade, I want to collect the two manuscripts & see if they agree.

And if you can thus prove that someone speaks prophetic languages, we can add the transcription to our Bible, as the Book of BigMouth after Revelation. But first we need to test it for satanic by seeing if the alleged prophet predicts the future perfectly & if his words do not contradict the Bible.


 
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Atwood

Senior Member
#33
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#33
Pardon me, but at first I thought this thread was about secessionism. And I might have weighed in on the virtues of seceding from the onion.
 
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shotgunner

Guest
#34
#34
Yes, it seems that knowledge has surly passed away.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
#35
#35
Shotgunner what do you mean as knowledge? Just interested in your thoughts on this.
 
Dan58

Dan58

Senior Member
#36
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
338
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#36

Name a great prophet that lived after 100AD. No inspired books (knowledge) have been written since then either. And the miracle of tongues has not been repeated. Those who babble and claim they're speaking in tongues are sensationalist. I believe that cessationism is correct, the evidence, or lack thereof, supports that these things no longer occur. If you disagree, show me a true prophet and I'll change my mind, otherwise I'm convinced these things ceased after the first century... jmo
 
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ladylynn

Guest
#37
#37
convallaria said:
I do agree with that. But I am ever grateful that the Lord doesn't want us to understand everything first before He gives it to us: the understanding comes by and by and we have to learn how to describe what is happening to us, which is not always easy and lays us open to misunderstandings.

It is like on the other thread when we were giving our testimonies of miraculous interventions while we were speaking in tongues. I knew at the time someone would want to shoot us down in flames, but however approximate our explanations, none of us can doubt that God did something awesome, and we were involved in the process! How amazing is that.

Generally in these things I feel it is better to give a certain latitude and believe the best...I would much rather do that than join the ranks of finger pointers who seem to smack everyone down who operates in a way they do not understand.

:)
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I very much agree with you and like the way you put that sister!! :)
 
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shotgunner

Guest
#38
#38
pottersclay said:
Shotgunner what do you mean as knowledge? Just interested in your thoughts on this.
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My friend, I meant it as sarcasm to some of the ridiculous posts. I do not believe that anything of God has ceased or passed away, nor will it until we see him face to face. That is the only time we won't need all the help we can get. As long as we are in this world and this flesh, we need every gift God has for us.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#39
Nov 24, 2012
30,716
3,653
113
#39
Gr8grace said:
Ok bumper sticker dude. I know you to be rational and can discuss a subject without getting all gushy gushy. And I respect your opinion FULLY.

We have "tongues will cease" when do you believe they will or have ceased. And I hope that you have noticed that if it gets heated....................I leave. SO I am honestly up just for the truth and not to ruffle your feathers!
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My opinion is that they will cease when...

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(1Co 13:9-10)


Now we see only an indistinct image in a mirror, but then we will be face to face. Now what I know is incomplete, but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1Co 13:12)

When we see Jesus.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
#40
#40
Thank you Shotgunner as you see I agree.
 
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