Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

[TheLearner]

I disagree and have already shown why

Isaiah 1

Easy-to-Read Version



1 This is the vision of Isaiah son of Amoz. God showed Isaiah what would happen to Judah and Jerusalem. Isaiah saw this during the time when Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah.
God’s Case Against Israel
2 Heaven and earth, listen! This is what the Lord says:
“I raised my children and helped them grow up,
but they have turned against me.
3 A bull knows its master,
and a donkey knows where its owner feeds it.
But Israel does not know me.
My people do not understand.”
4 Oh, what a sinful nation! Their guilt is like a heavy weight that they must carry. They are evil, destructive children.[a] They left the Lord and insulted the Holy One of Israel. They turned away and treated him like a stranger.
5 What good will it do to keep punishing you? You will continue to rebel. Your whole head and heart are already sick and aching. 6 From the bottom of your feet to the top of your head, every part of your body has wounds, cuts, and open sores. You have not taken care of them. Your wounds have not been cleaned and bandaged.
7 Your land is in ruins, and your cities are in flames. Your enemies have taken your land, and foreigners are taking what it produces. It looks like some foreigners destroyed it.[c]
Warnings for Jerusalem
8 The city of Jerusalem[d] is now like an empty shed left in a vineyard. It is like an old straw hut abandoned in a field of cucumbers or like a city surrounded by enemies. 9 If the Lord All-Powerful had not allowed a few people to live, we would have been destroyed completely like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And that almost happened!
10 You officers of Sodom, listen to the Lord’s message. You people of Gomorrah,[e] listen to God’s teaching. 11 The Lord says, “Why do you continue giving me all these sacrifices? I have had enough of your sacrifices of rams and the fat from well-fed animals. I don’t want the blood of those bulls, sheep, and goats. 12 When you people come to meet with me, you trample everything in my yard. Who told you to do this?
13 “Don’t keep bringing me those worthless sacrifices. I hate the incense you give me. I cannot stand your festivals for the New Moon, the Sabbath, and other special meeting days. I hate the evil you do during those holy times together. 14 I hate your monthly meetings and councils. They have become like heavy weights to me, and I am tired of carrying them.
15 “When you raise your arms to pray to me, I will refuse to look at you. You will say more and more prayers, but I will refuse to listen because your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves and make yourselves clean. Stop doing the evil things I see you do. Stop doing wrong. 17 Learn to do good. Treat people fairly. Punish those who hurt others. Speak up for the widows and orphans. Argue their cases for them in court.
18 “I, the Lord, am the one speaking to you. Come, let’s discuss this. Even if your sins are as dark as red dye, that stain can be removed and you will be as pure as wool that is as white as snow.
19 “If you listen to what I say, you will get the good things from this land. 20 But if you refuse to listen and rebel against me, your enemies will destroy you.”
The Lord himself said this.
Unfaithful Jerusalem
21 Look at Jerusalem. She was a faithful city. What made her become like a prostitute? In the past, Jerusalem was filled with justice, and goodness should live there now. Instead, there are murderers.
22 Once you were like pure silver, but now you are like the impurities that people throw away when the silver is purified. You are like good wine that has been weakened with water. 23 Your rulers are rebels and friends of thieves. They demand bribes and accept money for doing wrong. They take money to cheat people, and they don’t speak up for widows and orphans. They will not even listen to their cries for help.
24 Because of this, the Lord God All-Powerful, the Mighty One of Israel, says, “Look, I will get relief from my enemies. You will not cause me any more trouble. 25 People use lye to clean silver. In the same way, I will clean away all your wrongs. I will remove all the impurities from you. 26 I will bring back the kind of judges you had in the beginning. Your counselors will be like those you had long ago. Then you will be called ‘The Good and Faithful City.’”
27 God is good and does what is right, so he will rescue Zion and the people who come back to him. 28 But all the criminals and sinners will be destroyed. Those who stopped following the Lord will be removed.
29 In the future, you will be ashamed of the oak trees and special gardens[f] you chose to worship, 30 because you will be like an oak tree whose leaves are dying. You will be like a garden dying without water. 31 Powerful people will be like small, dry pieces of wood, and what they did will be like the sparks that start a fire. These people and their works will both burn up, and no one will be able to put out that fire.

This text is not even about the second death. It is about "we would have been destroyed completely like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And that almost happened!" It is a in this life even only.

 

[Runningman]

Isaiah 1

Easy-to-Read Version



1 This is the vision of Isaiah son of Amoz. God showed Isaiah what would happen to Judah and Jerusalem. Isaiah saw this during the time when Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah.
God’s Case Against Israel
2 Heaven and earth, listen! This is what the Lord says:
“I raised my children and helped them grow up,
but they have turned against me.
3 A bull knows its master,
and a donkey knows where its owner feeds it.
But Israel does not know me.
My people do not understand.”
4 Oh, what a sinful nation! Their guilt is like a heavy weight that they must carry. They are evil, destructive children.[a] They left the Lord and insulted the Holy One of Israel. They turned away and treated him like a stranger.
5 What good will it do to keep punishing you? You will continue to rebel. Your whole head and heart are already sick and aching. 6 From the bottom of your feet to the top of your head, every part of your body has wounds, cuts, and open sores. You have not taken care of them. Your wounds have not been cleaned and bandaged.
7 Your land is in ruins, and your cities are in flames. Your enemies have taken your land, and foreigners are taking what it produces. It looks like some foreigners destroyed it.[c]
Warnings for Jerusalem
8 The city of Jerusalem[d] is now like an empty shed left in a vineyard. It is like an old straw hut abandoned in a field of cucumbers or like a city surrounded by enemies. 9 If the Lord All-Powerful had not allowed a few people to live, we would have been destroyed completely like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And that almost happened!
10 You officers of Sodom, listen to the Lord’s message. You people of Gomorrah,[e] listen to God’s teaching. 11 The Lord says, “Why do you continue giving me all these sacrifices? I have had enough of your sacrifices of rams and the fat from well-fed animals. I don’t want the blood of those bulls, sheep, and goats. 12 When you people come to meet with me, you trample everything in my yard. Who told you to do this?
13 “Don’t keep bringing me those worthless sacrifices. I hate the incense you give me. I cannot stand your festivals for the New Moon, the Sabbath, and other special meeting days. I hate the evil you do during those holy times together. 14 I hate your monthly meetings and councils. They have become like heavy weights to me, and I am tired of carrying them.
15 “When you raise your arms to pray to me, I will refuse to look at you. You will say more and more prayers, but I will refuse to listen because your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves and make yourselves clean. Stop doing the evil things I see you do. Stop doing wrong. 17 Learn to do good. Treat people fairly. Punish those who hurt others. Speak up for the widows and orphans. Argue their cases for them in court.
18 “I, the Lord, am the one speaking to you. Come, let’s discuss this. Even if your sins are as dark as red dye, that stain can be removed and you will be as pure as wool that is as white as snow.
19 “If you listen to what I say, you will get the good things from this land. 20 But if you refuse to listen and rebel against me, your enemies will destroy you.”
The Lord himself said this.
Unfaithful Jerusalem
21 Look at Jerusalem. She was a faithful city. What made her become like a prostitute? In the past, Jerusalem was filled with justice, and goodness should live there now. Instead, there are murderers.
22 Once you were like pure silver, but now you are like the impurities that people throw away when the silver is purified. You are like good wine that has been weakened with water. 23 Your rulers are rebels and friends of thieves. They demand bribes and accept money for doing wrong. They take money to cheat people, and they don’t speak up for widows and orphans. They will not even listen to their cries for help.
24 Because of this, the Lord God All-Powerful, the Mighty One of Israel, says, “Look, I will get relief from my enemies. You will not cause me any more trouble. 25 People use lye to clean silver. In the same way, I will clean away all your wrongs. I will remove all the impurities from you. 26 I will bring back the kind of judges you had in the beginning. Your counselors will be like those you had long ago. Then you will be called ‘The Good and Faithful City.’”
27 God is good and does what is right, so he will rescue Zion and the people who come back to him. 28 But all the criminals and sinners will be destroyed. Those who stopped following the Lord will be removed.
29 In the future, you will be ashamed of the oak trees and special gardens[f] you chose to worship, 30 because you will be like an oak tree whose leaves are dying. You will be like a garden dying without water. 31 Powerful people will be like small, dry pieces of wood, and what they did will be like the sparks that start a fire. These people and their works will both burn up, and no one will be able to put out that fire.

This text is not even about the second death. It is about "we would have been destroyed completely like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And that almost happened!" It is a in this life even only.

God punished Sodom and Gomorrah because of their sin. There's no question this was not only a physical destruction, but also dustruction for spiritual purposes.

Notice below, only the fire is eternal. Nothing about eternal torment.

Jude 1:5-7
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[TheLearner]

As if being tormented in fire and brimstone forever is considered a life. It is worst than ceasing to exist.

You are not God and that is not your decision. God is also Just.

The theory that Hell can not exist because God is Love is very recent. Made popular by Rob Bell.
https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/why-would-a-loving-god-create-a-place-like-hell/

It dates back to:

The Love and Service of God, Infinite Love: Containing a ...books.google.com › books
Mother Louise Margaret Claret de la Touche · 1994

https://www3.dbu.edu/jeanhumphreys/DeathDying/preachinghell.htm

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/160513-theology-hell-history-christianity


The Swedenborg Concordance
A Complete Work of Reference to the Theological Writings of Emanuel Swedenborg. By Emanuel Swedenborg · 1890



The Unitarian - Volume 11books.google.com › books
Jabez Thomas Sunderland, ‎Brooke Herford, ‎Frederick B. Mott · 1896
FOUND INSIDE
A message filled through and to take this old doctrine of hell and fulfil it , through with the wonderful love of God , so that it will be adaptable to this modern but oftentimes a stern message . world of ours . It is justifiable to impress In the past ...

Unitarian Affirmations
Seven Discourses
1886

Manual of Unitarian Belief
By James Freeman Clarke, Kate Gannett Wells · 1885


A half-century of the Unitarian Controversy, etc
By George Edward ELLIS (of Charleston, U.S.) · 1857


The claim that hell can not exist because God is Love dates back to Unitarians and Emanuel Swedenborg. See if you can find that argument in anything dating before that.

 

[TheLearner]

Exposing Universalism
A Comprehensive Guide to the Faulty Appeals Made by Universalists Paul Young, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, and Others Past and Present to Promote a New Kind of Christianity
By James B. De Young · 2018

 

[TheLearner]

God punished Sodom and Gomorrah because of their sin. There's no question this was not only a physical destruction, but also dustruction for spiritual purposes.

Notice below, only the fire is eternal. Nothing about eternal torment.

Jude 1:5-7
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The context of Isaiah 1 is in this life only, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand as such it is a very poor proof text on you part.

Context Matters.

 

[TheLearner]

 

[TheLearner]

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

There is no language in the Bible that says everyone goes to hell and gets tormented forever.

Do people go to hell? Yes.
Is hell painful? Yes.
Do people perish in hell? Yes.
Are they destroyed in hell? Yes.
Do they die in hell? Yes.

Misspoke, eh?

look closely at the doctrine of eternal torment for all sinners. Words have meaning, language matters, God does not make mistakes.

an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Precious friend, ok, "words have meaning," so: what about these words?:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of THEIR torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
+
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So, is is the "meaning of this," that SOME are going to have LESS torment than
others?

IF your "annihilation" is true, then SOME, with a GREATER DEGREE of punishment,
are going to LAST LONGER, in THEIR torment, than others, BEFORE "being FINALLY annihilated"? Got Any SCRIPTURE "how long" that might be?

IF so, then THIS is really NOT "literally Correct," Correct?:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of THEIR torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Just wondering....

 

[Runningman]

Misspoke, eh?



Precious friend, ok, "words have meaning," so: what about these words?:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of THEIR torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
+
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So, is is the "meaning of this," that SOME are going to have LESS torment than
others?

IF your "annihilation" is true, then SOME, with a GREATER DEGREE of punishment,
are going to LAST LONGER, in THEIR torment, than others, BEFORE "being FINALLY annihilated"? Got Any SCRIPTURE "how long" that might be?

IF so, then THIS is really NOT "literally Correct," Correct?:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of THEIR torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Just wondering....

Where does it say in Revelation 14:9-11 anyone is tortured forever?

Before you answer that question, look at the text carefully.

Only the smoke rises forever.

The no rest day/night doesn't say it lasts forever.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Isaiah 1

Easy-to-Read Version



1 This is the vision of Isaiah son of Amoz. God showed Isaiah what would happen to Judah and Jerusalem. Isaiah saw this during the time when Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Judah.
God’s Case Against Israel
2 Heaven and earth, listen! This is what the Lord says:
“I raised my children and helped them grow up,
but they have turned against me.
3 A bull knows its master,
and a donkey knows where its owner feeds it.
But Israel does not know me.
My people do not understand.”
4 Oh, what a sinful nation! Their guilt is like a heavy weight that they must carry. They are evil, destructive children.[a] They left the Lord and insulted the Holy One of Israel. They turned away and treated him like a stranger.
5 What good will it do to keep punishing you? You will continue to rebel. Your whole head and heart are already sick and aching. 6 From the bottom of your feet to the top of your head, every part of your body has wounds, cuts, and open sores. You have not taken care of them. Your wounds have not been cleaned and bandaged.
7 Your land is in ruins, and your cities are in flames. Your enemies have taken your land, and foreigners are taking what it produces. It looks like some foreigners destroyed it.[c]
Warnings for Jerusalem
8 The city of Jerusalem[d] is now like an empty shed left in a vineyard. It is like an old straw hut abandoned in a field of cucumbers or like a city surrounded by enemies. 9 If the Lord All-Powerful had not allowed a few people to live, we would have been destroyed completely like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And that almost happened!
10 You officers of Sodom, listen to the Lord’s message. You people of Gomorrah,[e] listen to God’s teaching. 11 The Lord says, “Why do you continue giving me all these sacrifices? I have had enough of your sacrifices of rams and the fat from well-fed animals. I don’t want the blood of those bulls, sheep, and goats. 12 When you people come to meet with me, you trample everything in my yard. Who told you to do this?
13 “Don’t keep bringing me those worthless sacrifices. I hate the incense you give me. I cannot stand your festivals for the New Moon, the Sabbath, and other special meeting days. I hate the evil you do during those holy times together. 14 I hate your monthly meetings and councils. They have become like heavy weights to me, and I am tired of carrying them.
15 “When you raise your arms to pray to me, I will refuse to look at you. You will say more and more prayers, but I will refuse to listen because your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves and make yourselves clean. Stop doing the evil things I see you do. Stop doing wrong. 17 Learn to do good. Treat people fairly. Punish those who hurt others. Speak up for the widows and orphans. Argue their cases for them in court.
18 “I, the Lord, am the one speaking to you. Come, let’s discuss this. Even if your sins are as dark as red dye, that stain can be removed and you will be as pure as wool that is as white as snow.
19 “If you listen to what I say, you will get the good things from this land. 20 But if you refuse to listen and rebel against me, your enemies will destroy you.”
The Lord himself said this.
Unfaithful Jerusalem
21 Look at Jerusalem. She was a faithful city. What made her become like a prostitute? In the past, Jerusalem was filled with justice, and goodness should live there now. Instead, there are murderers.
22 Once you were like pure silver, but now you are like the impurities that people throw away when the silver is purified. You are like good wine that has been weakened with water. 23 Your rulers are rebels and friends of thieves. They demand bribes and accept money for doing wrong. They take money to cheat people, and they don’t speak up for widows and orphans. They will not even listen to their cries for help.
24 Because of this, the Lord God All-Powerful, the Mighty One of Israel, says, “Look, I will get relief from my enemies. You will not cause me any more trouble. 25 People use lye to clean silver. In the same way, I will clean away all your wrongs. I will remove all the impurities from you. 26 I will bring back the kind of judges you had in the beginning. Your counselors will be like those you had long ago. Then you will be called ‘The Good and Faithful City.’”
27 God is good and does what is right, so he will rescue Zion and the people who come back to him. 28 But all the criminals and sinners will be destroyed. Those who stopped following the Lord will be removed.
29 In the future, you will be ashamed of the oak trees and special gardens[f] you chose to worship, 30 because you will be like an oak tree whose leaves are dying. You will be like a garden dying without water. 31 Powerful people will be like small, dry pieces of wood, and what they did will be like the sparks that start a fire. These people and their works will both burn up, and no one will be able to put out that fire.

This text is not even about the second death. It is about "we would have been destroyed completely like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. And that almost happened!" It is a in this life even only.

yes a lot of good scripture I was pointing towards this part

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

some to everlasting life,

and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭K

some will interpret everlasting shame and contempt I suppose some take this other ways than I to me it’s not saying they are raised for no reason or just end afterwards but they are raised for the intent of shame and everlasting contempt

everyone dies in the flesh and everyone has to face Eternal judgement of thier spirit it’s the two appointments men have from birth

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, ( flesh )

but after this the judgment:”( spirit )

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The post here was about why people believe in the doctrine of eternal torment and fire and I was just trying to state and show why I think many believe that

 

[Pilgrimshope]

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:10-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which parts are you highlighting ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Where does it say in Revelation 14:9-11 anyone is tortured forever?

Before you answer that question, look at the text carefully.

Only the smoke rises forever.

The no rest day/night doesn't say it lasts forever.

what about this one ?

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

some to everlasting life,

and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭KJV‬

or this one ?

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: “


This one ?

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

and this one

“If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,”

Just as those who accept Christ receive this

“Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”

now imagine this also is true


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: “

imagine a place that’s the antithesis of Gods kingdom of life and light no sorrow no death or pain Gods presence forever with man

now where does all the evil go forever ? It’s contained in the devils eternal
Prison and home and inherit his wealth of damnation just as Hods children inherit the eternal kingdom

I can only show why I believe what I believe , totally respect any other views I just think it’s too clear and lreeent for me to reject it

it’s terrible but it’s also explained that mans will caused all of it and Gods will is that we never go there but rather live with him forever

 

[Pilgrimshope]

All you are doing stacking one false doctrine upon another. Of course is sending people to hell, in fact it will be MOST people.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

lol ok well o better not continue with toy then

thanks for the talk

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The word damnation doesn't mean eternal torment. That word damnation in John 5:29 means a judgment:

2920. krisis
Strong's Concordance
krisis: a decision, judgment
Original Word: κρίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: krisis
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-sis)
Definition: a decision, judgment
Usage: judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation.

Drop the assumptions and perceptions and stick with what the scriptures say.

ahh ok so what does the word punishment mean ?


..Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:”

or what does this mean ?

“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what about this ?

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

define what all those terms mean and how they aren’t summarized by the resurrection of the damned

 

[Jocund]

I already gave dozens of quotes by early christians proving eternal torment. You because of your own opinion refuse to accept historical sources.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120121.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103527.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360309.htm

"Traditionalists respond that only God is qualified to determine what is truly just, and raise suspicions that annihilationists may be succumbing to modern cultural pressures. The argument does go both ways, however. A common response to the idea of annihilation is that God is infinitely holy and therefore demands infinite conscious punishment. "
https://www.theopedia.com/annihilationism

"Today many traditionalists claim that the doctrine is most often associated with groups descended from William Miller and the Adventist movement of the mid-1800s, including Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other Adventist groups. However, a number of evangelical theologians, including Anglican John Stott, Church of Christ elder Edward Fudge, Open Theists Clark Pinnock and John Sanders, as well as Philip Edgecombe Hughes and others have offered support for the doctrine, touching off a heated debate within mainstream evangelical Christianity. " https://www.theopedia.com/annihilationism

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Let's talk ethos/pathos/logos for a minute.

I haven't looked deeply into your comments about the founding fathers and annihilationism, but supposing you are correct, your argument is from ethos. It requires the recognition of historical church concepts to have authority in context of the conversation.

From the perspective of logos and scripture alone, the concept of annihilationism can go either way. Logos doesn't give us a firm answer in this case.

From the perspective of pathos, many feel that the concept of annihilation is a better fit to the loving nature and mercy of God as opposed to eternal torment.

There's nothing wrong with your approach of trying to leverage the opinions (or insight) of historical figures, but there might be some disagreement as to whether those perspectives are divinely inspired.

 

[Aaron56]

People are having issues understanding the phrases "everlasting" or "eternal" or "forever". It requires discernment.

For example, we have this well known scripture, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

We typically paraphrase this verse and say to people we are preaching "If you believe in Jesus you will never die. You will have eternal life."

The word "everlasting" is the Greek word aiōnios. It means, "without end, never to cease" according to Strong's Concordance. So far, we are good to go.

But let's move just a little further in the book of John. Whenever possible, we should let the scriptures interpret the scriptures. Here we find this verse, John 17:3 “And this is eternal life..." Jesus is speaking here so we can rest knowing we have the definition of "eternal life from good authority.
He continues: "..that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." **record scratch**

What? The Greek word literally means "without end, never to cease". But Jesus defines "eternal life" as "..that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." What is going on?

Jesus defines "eternal life" from the location of its origin: from the Word the was God and was with God at the beginning of the age.
John 1:1-4
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him,
and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

Now, is eternal life without end? Yes, of course, that is a quality of eternal life. But it is more than that: eternal life encompasses the relationship the Father had with the Son from the beginning. Certainly, this is not speaking about the beginning of God: God has no beginning or end. This is speaking about the beginning of all of creation including man. The Word (the scripture continues) became flesh, and dwelt among men. In summary: all that God is (signified by the word "Word") appeared as "life that is the light of men." This life/light was shown as the relationship between the Father and the Son. Now, all who are found within the Son are reconciled into that eternal life that existed before the creation.

This is exactly what Jesus prayed for just a little further in John chapter 17. John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

So, He defines eternal life John 17:3 and then He expounds on it just a little further in John 17:20-23.

My point is, doctrinal tradition can create a fog over scripture by which the full truth is hidden from us. This is true in the case of eternal life and it is true in the case of eternal punishment.

Food for thought: Death and Hell are spirits. They are destroyed at the end of this age (also called "forever" or "everlasting") before the new heaven and earth are created. (We knew that the current heaven was not eternal, right? ) Those not in Christ will be likewise destroyed. Their "everlasting" punishment will conclude with the age before the new and final age begins.

Peace and Grace,
Aaron56

 

[ewq1938]

ahh ok so what does the word punishment mean ?


..Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:”

Don't you have a concordance?

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849
Citing in TDNT: 3:816, 451

So what is the punishment of the unsaved? It's found here:


Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Those who teach and believe the unsaved are cast into the and LIVE forever are going contrary to scripture. They will suffer second death which means they won't be alive. That's the everlasting punishment, to be dead forever with no possibility of resurrection.

or what does this mean ?

“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It certainly isn't eternal torture. It says those in darkness will weep and gnash their teeth.

what about this ?

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The fire will last forever. Doesn't say the person does, does it?

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

define what all those terms mean and how they aren’t summarized by the resurrection of the damned

The smoke will rise forever, which is symbolic since smoke actually can't rise upwards forever. It does not say the people are alive (they are going to be dead according to Christ and 21).

The no rest day or night is a reference to when they take mark of the beast, not when they are cast into the lake of fire because, again, 21 says they will be dead and dead don't need rest do they?

Remember what Jesus taught:

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.



Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.--TRUE DOCTRINE


Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

People are having issues understanding the phrases "everlasting" or "eternal" or "forever". It requires discernment.

For example, we have this well known scripture, John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

We typically paraphrase this verse and say to people we are preaching "If you believe in Jesus you will never die. You will have eternal life."

The word "everlasting" is the Greek word aiōnios. It means, "without end, never to cease" according to Strong's Concordance. So far, we are good to go.

But let's move just a little further in the book of John. Whenever possible, we should let the scriptures interpret the scriptures. Here we find this verse, John 17:3 “And this is eternal life..." Jesus is speaking here so we can rest knowing we have the definition of "eternal life from good authority.
He continues: "..that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." **record scratch**

What? The Greek word literally means "without end, never to cease". But Jesus defines "eternal life" as "..that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." What is going on?

Jesus defines "eternal life" from the location of its origin: from the Word the was God and was with God at the beginning of the age.
John 1:1-4
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him,
and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

Now, is eternal life without end? Yes, of course, that is a quality of eternal life. But it is more than that: eternal life encompasses the relationship the Father had with the Son from the beginning. Certainly, this is not speaking about the beginning of God: God has no beginning or end. This is speaking about the beginning of all of creation including man. The Word (the scripture continues) became flesh, and dwelt among men. In summary: all that God is (signified by the word "Word") appeared as "life that is the light of men." This life/light was shown as the relationship between the Father and the Son. Now, all who are found within the Son are reconciled into that eternal life that existed before the creation.

This is exactly what Jesus prayed for just a little further in John chapter 17. John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

So, He defines eternal life John 17:3 and then He expounds on it just a little further in John 17:20-23.

My point is, doctrinal tradition can create a fog over scripture by which the full truth is hidden from us. This is true in the case of eternal life and it is true in the case of eternal punishment.

Food for thought: Death and Hell are spirits. They are destroyed at the end of this age (also called "forever" or "everlasting") before the new heaven and earth are created. (We knew that the current heaven was not eternal, right? ) Those not in Christ will be likewise destroyed. Their "everlasting" punishment will conclude with the age before the new and final age begins.

Peace and Grace,
Aaron56

how can a man die . And yet live forever ?

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to a dying man the lord himself wotnesses that his life is not going to cease because his body dies

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I like your post there “unceasing “

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

How is it possible ? man has two parts a body made of the earth, and a living spirit that was given of God.

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭

This then is the design of death , a seperation of those same two elements body and living spirit inside.

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ 12:7

the flesh is sentenced to death for sin and we have to leave our flesh first

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but the spirit can be saved into the kingdom and the spiritual body of the resurrection

“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”

our first body of flesh is condemned to death but through belief and repentance we can inherit the promises of Christ such as the eternal kingdom he preached and promised believers who hear his word ( that’s how they believe the promises he made for the kingdom )

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The gospel is where God began promising everlasting life its found in Christs gospel

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Don't you have a concordance?

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849
Citing in TDNT: 3:816, 451

So what is the punishment of the unsaved? It's found here:


Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Those who teach and believe the unsaved are cast into the and LIVE forever are going contrary to scripture. They will suffer second death which means they won't be alive. That's the everlasting punishment, to be dead forever with no possibility of resurrection.




It certainly isn't eternal torture. It says those in darkness will weep and gnash their teeth.





The fire will last forever. Doesn't say the person does, does it?



The smoke will rise forever, which is symbolic since smoke actually can't rise upwards forever. It does not say the people are alive (they are going to be dead according to Christ and 21).

The no rest day or night is a reference to when they take mark of the beast, not when they are cast into the lake of fire because, again, 21 says they will be dead and dead don't need rest do they?

Remember what Jesus taught:

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.



Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.--TRUE DOCTRINE


Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.

I sort of feel it’s pride at this point , so I think I have made my own belief clear and will leave it there. I’ve pretty much made the point I was making to answer the op question why people believe that doctrine I was never wanting to argue my point was allll those scriptures you’ve explained away with…. I’m not sure what to call your post there , but that’s why people believe that stuff because it’s all throughout the Bible pretty plainly some believe what’s there , others explain why it’s not really what it says

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Don't you have a concordance?

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849
Citing in TDNT: 3:816, 451

So what is the punishment of the unsaved? It's found here:


Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Those who teach and believe the unsaved are cast into the and LIVE forever are going contrary to scripture. They will suffer second death which means they won't be alive. That's the everlasting punishment, to be dead forever with no possibility of resurrection.




It certainly isn't eternal torture. It says those in darkness will weep and gnash their teeth.





The fire will last forever. Doesn't say the person does, does it?



The smoke will rise forever, which is symbolic since smoke actually can't rise upwards forever. It does not say the people are alive (they are going to be dead according to Christ and 21).

The no rest day or night is a reference to when they take mark of the beast, not when they are cast into the lake of fire because, again, 21 says they will be dead and dead don't need rest do they?

Remember what Jesus taught:

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.



Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.--TRUE DOCTRINE


Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.

can’t you read ? I was replying to running man I’ve already explained to you your judgement of who “ teaches false doctrine “ means nothing to me. You have never changed always the same I’ve explained this several times you have shown yourself for months to
Me as an accuser pointer and gossip

someone with little understanding of the scripture and a head as hard as iron , you e never made a single productive comment to me in any way and spend your time accusing and pointing because you hate seeing the scripture it always shows your inadequacy of understanding most every single time

I’m extremely tired of whatever vendetta you have with me , but I want you to finally get this

you have absolutely no place judging me heretic because I’m in a discussion forum me you don’t agree with what I say . I’ve never claimed be any sort of teacher of doctrine like some of you obviously think you are , I personally don’t think you are so move on and bother others I don’t have any value left for your attacks move on