Why do many stumble at 3 of the 5 gifts?

[Markum1972]

This is just an honest question that has me perplexed.

I am curious as to why it seems that most Christians can easily accept when someone professes to be a Pastor or Evangelist but persecute those that claim to have the gift of being a Prophet, Teacher, or Apostle?

In Ephesians 4:11-12 it states that all 5 gifts are essential to the body of Christ. So why would anyone want to remove any of them?

The reason that I find this to be so curious is that one would think that a student of the scripture would take warning when it is written that prophets, apostles, and teachers suffer a lot of persecution. When I first read this, I thought that persecution would come from the world. Now I am realizing that it is mostly from those that claim to be believers in Christ Jesus.

Can anyone explain why this is?

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

My friend the religious leaders of Israel persecuted Jesus and the apostles more than anyone. Yes, a lot of persecution comes from the church. Especially when you teach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. They want to trust in their works.

As for te gifts, just because people deny them, it doesn't mean they don't exist and in these last days, they will be given all the more.

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

If I might add one thing. Many preachers call themselves apostles when they are not. To me. an apostle is one that carries the gospel to a place where the gospel has not been preached, sorta like a missionary.

 

[RickyZ]

It's because they don't believe those things exist anymore (their logic says God is the same yesterday today and forever, except today is not the same as yesterday, and forever will be different still). And they don't understand the difference between a gift and an Office.

 

[kenisyes]

In the early church, as it became the Roman Catholic, prophets and apostles got in the way of the pastors, and were gradually banned. That made the next generations (now into 300AD) question why the apostles and prophets disappeared from the church. This group proposed that God wanted them stopped, as they were only for the early church. The catholics saved the writings they liked, and soon the truth was not available in print any more. The protestants went by what they read a thousand years later, and it became dogma in many churches that apostles and prophets only existed until 300 AD or so, that this was God's choice, and thus they would never return. When the gifts did return (because the priesthood of the believer had been raised up enough), war was made on them by the institutions, and a pendulum swing took things the opposite way, where new denominations (we are now into the 1920's) attempted to overcorrect, by emphasizing "proofs" of these gifts with miracles, most of which were only in their own minds. The denominations used the false miracles to reinforce their belief that these ministries do not exist, and are being counterfeited.

That's the history. Why don't the churches let Scripture correct them? You'd have to ask them. Churches are great at keeping God in a box created by their own traditions. That's why there are so many of them, and they all disagree on some or other point of theology.

 

[Nancyer]

I wondered about "apostles" myself. I received a post card in the mail recently advertising a new church (maybe not new but trying to grow). The Pastor was Apostle Charles and his wife is Sister Madeline. I've meant to ask my pastor about the title Apostle, but haven't done so yet. I'll try to remember to ask tomorrow night at church. Any thoughts?

 

[JGPS]

This is just an honest question that has me perplexed.

I am curious as to why it seems that most Christians can easily accept when someone professes to be a Pastor or Evangelist but persecute those that claim to have the gift of being a Prophet, Teacher, or Apostle?

In Ephesians 4:11-12 it states that all 5 gifts are essential to the body of Christ. So why would anyone want to remove any of them?

The reason that I find this to be so curious is that one would think that a student of the scripture would take warning when it is written that prophets, apostles, and teachers suffer a lot of persecution. When I first read this, I thought that persecution would come from the world. Now I am realizing that it is mostly from those that claim to be believers in Christ Jesus.

Can anyone explain why this is?

Apostle implies authority over a group of churches, and most churches like keeping their authority at home. Larger denominations have different names for multi-church leaders so the name apostle is unused and alien to them.

Also many think Apostle just refers to 'the big twelve' and so reusing the name is taboo.

Prophet usually makes people think exclusively in terms of future sight, which most prophets don't have. Plus this tends to be the most commonly falsified gifting so people are wary of it.

Teachers are the least persecuted of the three. But those with the gift of teaching tend to have it in a 'walk and talk' teaching sense. That kind of teaching has very little place in a didactic\lecture hall church structure. Thus teachers tend to get pushed out, silenced, or at best neglected.

Also, if the gift of teacher or prophet is recognized the person with the gift is generally just called a 'pastor' anyway. The role of pastor in modern churches is closer to the role of teacher than pastor.

 

[Powemm]

The words that Come immediately too mind as I read this is "those who receive Me
Will recieve you" I will say there have been members on cc who I trust I could share anything with them in Christ .. and have ..I was being shown things that I had no clue what was happening or what it was about .. .. what was so neat was when I came here I was in deep search for answers as to what was happening .. I was scared I was loosing my sanity.. I wish I could count the number of sites i
Visited, I was looking for anyone having the experience of what was happening to my body and what I was seeing. I'm here to share , it is rare rare rare for anyone to acknowledge or even believe it's even happening to you .. They automatically assume you are a liar and discredit you.. when I came here I can't tell you how grateful I was to certain cc members who actually took the time pointing me to scripture and understand "through their knowledge" what was going on ... I mean I was seriously ready to check
Myself in to a mental hospital .. It frightened me that bad .. It was because of my own lack of " knowledge "... I am thankful for the other members in the body of Christ who stepped up ... Thank You!

 

[Markum1972]

The words that Come immediately too mind as I read this is "those who receive Me
Will recieve you" I will say there have been members on cc who I trust I could share anything with them in Christ .. and have ..I was being shown things that I had no clue what was happening or what it was about .. .. what was so neat was when I came here I was in deep search for answers as to what was happening .. I was scared I was loosing my sanity.. I wish I could count the number of sites i
Visited, I was looking for anyone having the experience of what was happening to my body and what I was seeing. I'm here to share , it is rare rare rare for anyone to acknowledge or even believe it's even happening to you .. They automatically assume you are a liar and discredit you.. when I came here I can't tell you how grateful I was to certain cc members who actually took the time pointing me to scripture and understand "through their knowledge" what was going on ... I mean I was seriously ready to check
Myself in to a mental hospital .. It frightened me that bad .. It was because of my own lack of " knowledge "... I am thankful for the other members in the body of Christ who stepped up ... Thank You!

Wow. I can certainly relate to what you are saying and have to say that I have experienced the same thing. Changes have happened not only in my spirit and mind but my body as well. An increase in strength, reflexes, endurance, etc... Those that have witnessed it think I must be on some kind of heavy workout regiment. However, I am sure to correct them and give God all of the glory for it. It is the only explanation that I have for it because the only workout regiment I have is a great increase in diligently seeking the Lord.

After asking God to make me His servant and an instrument of His will, I was bombarded with visions, dreams, revelations, sudden scriptures coming to my thoughts that I had never read and then would find later in scripture, etc... Some of the things that the Lord was showing me were overwhelming and I literally know what it means when scripture says "and he fell on his face". I have witnessed what it is like to tremble before God's awesome presence. God has encouraged me that He would not allow me to take more than I could bear.

Even a family member had become concerned about me and was asking my mother to pray for me. She apologized weeks later after I had asked her to pray for people about a great calamity that was coming. I had dreams and visions of everything (in detail) that took place in Japan and was even told that it would take place in mid March of that year. My sister realized that only God could have revealed it to me so that we could pray for the people.

I had NEVER experienced something like this in my over 20 years as a Christian. It was not until after I got down on my hands and knees and cried out to Him and humbled myself before Him and offered my service to Him.

Thank you for your response. It was very encouraging. Let's continue to testify of our Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and confidence and rejoice in the persecutions that we suffer!

All of the honor, glory, and praise given to God through our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ!

 

[Markum1972]

Thank you to all that responded to this post. Every answer was insightful and helpful. I appreciate all of your posts.

 

[Markum1972]

If I might add one thing. Many preachers call themselves apostles when they are not. To me. an apostle is one that carries the gospel to a place where the gospel has not been preached, sorta like a missionary.

I agree. I can also see evidence in scripture that it is the job of the Apostle to check in on the churches and bring loving correction as needed; to be sure that they are not turning back to idols and the like. JGPS's comment mentions this.

 

[unclefester]

This is just an honest question that has me perplexed.

I am curious as to why it seems that most Christians can easily accept when someone professes to be a Pastor or Evangelist but persecute those that claim to have the gift of being a Prophet, Teacher, or Apostle?

Easily answered ... but many are not interested in the answer. In their view (and perhaps yours), it would equate to "limiting God" or "putting Him in a box" or any similar catch phrase consistently put forth by those likeminded. Furthermore, for me to address this matter yet once again would make me a "persecutor" and would only serve to further substantiate and validate their claims. So have at it full throttle in the knowledge that all of us (including you) will be responsible to God for those things that we proclaim as God's truth in Christ's name. Jesus Christ handpicked His twelve (and Paul), who along with the prophets of old whose accomplished purpose laid the foundation of Christ's church today.... and it is their writings and testimony that I will believe and proclaim in God's name in Christ. You are free to indulge yourself in whatever manner you choose. Here's one to get you started.

The following paragraph is by Dr. C. Peter Wagner on the “About” page of the Global Harvest Ministries website:

“Back in the 1990s we began hearing the Holy Spirit speaking about restoring apostles and prophets as the foundation of the church as God originally designed (see Eph. 2:20). As I have explained in my book, Apostles and Prophets: The Foundation of the Church (Regal Books), I gradually came to the realization that God had given me the gift of apostle, and that certain spheres of the body of Christ were recognizing that I had the office of apostle as well. Consequently, developing apostolic leadership in today’s church has now become an important function of GHM.”​

 

[kenisyes]

I wondered about "apostles" myself. I received a post card in the mail recently advertising a new church (maybe not new but trying to grow). The Pastor was Apostle Charles and his wife is Sister Madeline. I've meant to ask my pastor about the title Apostle, but haven't done so yet. I'll try to remember to ask tomorrow night at church. Any thoughts?

There are many apostles and prophets in the Body today. Most chruches deny their existence, a few overcorrect and start ordaining their own. The real ones do not run around telling you. They just do their job of starting new works in the Body, and proclaiming God's message.

Just like most of the real pastors do not hold the office in a church. They are too busy feeding sheep to bother with getting the credentials. And most evangelists do not have organizations to collect money for their revival meetings; they are too busy building enthusiasm for what God is doing.

 

[GreenNnice]

Easily answered ... but many are not interested in the answer. In their view (and perhaps yours), it would equate to "limiting God" or "putting Him in a box" or any similar catch phrase consistently put forth by those likeminded. Furthermore, for me to address this matter yet once again would make me a "persecutor" and would only serve to further substantiate and validate their claims. So have at it full throttle in the knowledge that all of us (including you) will be responsible to God for those things that we proclaim as God's truth in Christ's name. Jesus Christ handpicked His twelve (and Paul), who along with the prophets of old whose accomplished purpose laid the foundation of Christ's church today.... and it is their writings and testimony that I will believe and proclaim in God's name in Christ. You are free to indulge yourself in whatever manner you choose. Here's one to get you started.

The following paragraph is by Dr. C. Peter Wagner on the “About” page of the Global Harvest Ministries website:

“Back in the 1990s we began hearing the Holy Spirit speaking about restoring apostles and prophets as the foundation of the church as God originally designed (see Eph. 2:20). As I have explained in my book, Apostles and Prophets: The Foundation of the Church (Regal Books), I gradually came to the realization that God had given me the gift of apostle, and that certain spheres of the body of Christ were recognizing that I had the office of apostle as well. Consequently, developing apostolic leadership in today’s church has now become an important function of GHM.”​

Quick aside: kenny, what you say about ”real pastors,” this seems over the top, many read these posts, pastors of churches too. The Lord leads, I would just be cognizant of God(great) work.done through pastors today.

God's purposes are always being accomplished, and, they are being accomplished through many means, both independent and dependent on us, not that God needs to depend on us, LOL, He needs NO ONE , but He made us because He wanted something more than ”creation” offered Him . Not saying God did not know what He was doing in creating creation, LOL, God knows all, but, He did say He was ”grieved,” in Gen. 5 or 6? , and, so, God DID let man choose to grieve Him, or not.

God uses us today, Scripture is clear, too:

1. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit (as those in Noah's day DID grieve God by their incest decisiins, etc.), and, do NOT ”quench the Spirit, who.is He who is inside your 'temple.'

You will answer to God for what you teach, and, do, and, you have faith to believe His power is in you, WHAT is it all in you for?

1. Just to.interpret the Word and help you believe ,, hope, have faith in Christ this way, all the way to.heaven?
2. Something more gleaned from His Spirit in you, a,power to help you understand your faith more, His power directing you. Read John 16 .

3. God gave us the office for what reason? In part usage for an abbreviated time period or more time?

4. How does one believe and have faith in God without His power ACCOMPLISHING His purposes through you?

5.Scripture SPECIFICALLY states ”the Spirit of truth” will.lead us to all truth. Keep.in mind thzt Jesus is God is Holy Spirit is The Word is the High Priest, but THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, THE ”Holy Spirit” is who God says will lead us to a.truth. There is something fiercely, as in awesomely supernatural about that John 16:13 truth


Got a book reco for ya : ”They Speak In Tongues.”

I'm just starting to.read it. The Holy Spirit is personal, too, this book will.show you His ”light” wer too, in so many ways, by The author of ”God's Snuggler.”

 

[kenisyes]

Quick aside: kenny, what you say about ”real pastors,” this seems over the top, many read these posts, pastors of churches too. The Lord leads, I would just be cognizant of God(great) work.done through pastors today.

Of course, there are real pastors in some churches too. For hundreds of years, it was the only paid ministry open, and many men filled it, so they had the income for other misnitries. This has confused the issue. Some real pastors are not in church, some pastors of churches are not real, and some churches are indeed under real pastors. It is a very complex issue, and we actually would need a whole thread just to lay out the terminology to do it justice.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

i don't know of anyone who has a problem with teachers as long as they teach the truth...

i believe there are still apostles but they are all in heaven now

 

[Angela53510]

I always thought that apostles had to have known the risen Christ. Paul talked with Jesus after he died, so he would count.

As for prophets, I think you really need a life time of testing, to fulfill the criteria of the Old Testament. And I have never heard of anyone who has prophesied and not ever made one mistake. In the Old Testament, that is grounds for stoning to death. So maybe some people prefer not to take on that role?

As for teachers and pastors, I have both gifts. I am Baptist, and everyone recognized these gifts, both in Seminary and in my church. So teacher is certainly not gone.

Anyone who teaches God's truth is not necessarily gifted with being a teacher. But certainly there are many with this gift who have not been formally "labeled." Our church requires a gift test, which they designed using Biblical criteria. Everyone I know who has taken it turned out to be very true. Not saying it is perfect, more of a confirmation of what many have already told me, and areas where I serve God best. I was never a woman to arrange luncheons or baby showers, and clean up after. I always felt guilty, until I recognized serving is not my gift. (See Romans 12:7) Besides, with my handicaps, it is not really possible, but I can always care for the flock and teach, the Lord willing!

Not sure which church you are talking about, but this gifts are very much alive, with the possible exception of the gift of the apostle.

Really, it is very arrogant for someone to self-style themselves as an apostle. That being said, I have met some incredible people of God, who I would say definitely fulfill this gift, even if they are not called by that name.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

the biblical definition of an apostle is a person who was an eyewitness of the risen jesus...who was specifically commissioned by christ to reveal the new testament mysteries...things that were hinted at but not yet clearly explained in old testament times...

john revealed the last two mysteries in the book of revelation...there are no more mysteries now...and that means there is no need for any additional apostles...

the original apostles who revealed the mysteries are now in heaven...their special work of revealing the mysteries continues through their writings the explain all of the mysteries... any time a person reads the new testament and understands the mysteries...the work of the apostles continues to bear fruit...

 

[kenisyes]

Sorry, Rachel, this is the definition some churches teach, but it is not the definition of Scripture. An apostle is a person who starts new works. The twelve are called the twelve until Jesus sends them out. The word for "sent out" is "apostle"; that's where the name came from. It simply means sent out, it became a dedicated term for the 12 way after John died. The 70 are apostles too, the same word is used. In John 20:21, Jesus says "as the Father has apostled me, so I deputized you". The English is wrong, using "sent" twice. If your definition is correct, Jesus is an apostle too, and by this passage the 12 are only deputy apostles. The didache recognizes the office of wandering apostle, and there were many. Further, if there are only 12 apostles, how can there be any false apostles to be denounced by Paul? Sure, if the name is not on the list, they would not need to be denounced.

The word means "sent away". It is anyone to whom God has given a new vision who goes and does it. Angela has it right. There are many people who are apostles today. The real ones normally will not use the term of themselves, because of the confusion.

 

[Markum1972]

I always thought that apostles had to have known the risen Christ. Paul talked with Jesus after he died, so he would count.

Do we not know Him? If not, then are we not those that He said, "Depart from me, I never knew you." I recommend reading the scriptures and paying close attention to WHAT Apostles did/do specifically and remember that God is not limited to the confines of time and space.

As for prophets, I think you really need a life time of testing, to fulfill the criteria of the Old Testament. And I have never heard of anyone who has prophesied and not ever made one mistake. In the Old Testament, that is grounds for stoning to death. So maybe some people prefer not to take on that role?

As for teachers and pastors, I have both gifts. I am Baptist, and everyone recognized these gifts, both in Seminary and in my church. So teacher is certainly not gone.

Anyone who teaches God's truth is not necessarily gifted with being a teacher. But certainly there are many with this gift who have not been formally "labeled." Our church requires a gift test, which they designed using Biblical criteria. Everyone I know who has taken it turned out to be very true. Not saying it is perfect, more of a confirmation of what many have already told me, and areas where I serve God best. I was never a woman to arrange luncheons or baby showers, and clean up after. I always felt guilty, until I recognized serving is not my gift. (See Romans 12:7) Besides, with my handicaps, it is not really possible, but I can always care for the flock and teach, the Lord willing!

Not sure which church you are talking about, but this gifts are very much alive, with the possible exception of the gift of the apostle.

Really, it is very arrogant for someone to self-style themselves as an apostle. That being said, I have met some incredible people of God, who I would say definitely fulfill this gift, even if they are not called by that name.

Why is it arrogant for someone to call themself an Apostle as Paul did, yet not so for those that call themselves Teachers or Pastors? Is it forbidden to speak the truth on this matter and not on the others?