Why does God not talk directly/audibly to us as in the OT?

GRACE_ambassador · Feb 20, 2022

op: God not audible today as in OT?
Precious friend(s):
Considering The Completed Written Word Of God, our
hearts and minds can hear What God "Says To us"?:

1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred
to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us

NOT to think above THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN,

that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Would this not include waiting to "hear an audible voice"?

IF "such voice was heard," Especially IF it is Contradictory, would
that not be "adding TO God's Word," which is forbidden BY:

God's Completed Written Word, Scripture?:
(Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32; Proverbs 30:5-6; Revelation 22:18,19)

Since religions have made attempts to "claim" that men (so-called
leaders/prophets), church, tradition, and magesterium are equal to or
higher than God's Pure And Holy Word, then What kind of Judgment
Would God Have For "such," As It Is Plainly And Clearly WRITTEN:

Psa 138:2 "I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise
Thy Name for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for
Thou Hast MAGNIFIED Thy Word Above All THY NAME."

Would not "an experience of hearing an audible voice" fall into
this same category? Can an "audible word" Really Be TRUSTED to
be equal to God's PERFECT Word, Which Is ABOVE His Name?

Now, IF someone "claims" they have had such an experience, then,
imho, I believe that is "between them And God," Correct?

I personally Cannot find WRITTEN Scripture that Teaches me that
I should "seek such an experience," because like emotions and
feelings. experiences that Many "claim" is THEIR "way of living for
God," I find WRITTEN Scripture Says And Speaks To my heart and
mind, that I Should, In His "Dispensation Of Pure GRACE":

"...live BY FAITH, NOT by sight..." (2 Corinthians 5:7)

The MOST wary I have Every Been About this "kind of experience,"
is the teacher that claimed "The Triune God spoke to him, when he
SAW three fireballs at the end of his bed one night."

See what I mean about "being Wary," or being Deceived,
Which The WRITTEN Word Clearly Teaches, Correct?

Precious friend(s), just my thoughts...

GRACE And Peace...

KelbyofGod · Feb 21, 2022

KrisWampler said:

Thank-you for clarifying your meaning, and subsequently your beliefs on the matter. This may sound nit-picky on the details but I think this is where @Runningman is getting upset. So please bear with me as it also has to do with your original question.

Consider the following subsets of modern people:

Group A: People who may feel God's lead but don't hear God speak clearly, (with full sentences, perhaps as a man speaks with his friend).
Group B: ...(?)
Group C: People who claim to hear a voice and claim it's God...but are actually insane or (at least are NOT hearing God).

In terms of those subsets, it seems you strongly believe that there is a "Group A" and strongly believe there is a "Group C". Correct?

The question remains... Can you believe there is a "Group B" if it is defined in the following way:

Group B: People who ARE hearing God speak clearly, (perhaps full sentences, perhaps as a man speaks with his friend) and are not insane.

If you CAN, then much is available.

If you cannot believe there is a "Group B" (as defined), it does 3 things:

It explains why Runningman was upset. (Because he doesn't fit Group A, which would only leave the "insane" categorization.)
It also explains why you believe God doesn't speak clearly (in full sentences, and as a man speaks to his friends) as he did in the OT. Because you would have to consider yourself insane if God ever spoke like that. Meanwhile you likely only surround yourself with people whose experiences match your own... (You don't hang out with "insane" people, do you?)... creating a strong confirmation bias.
It creates an obstacle to God speaking to you that way... because God will only give you information in a way that you CAN believe... lest you think he's an evil, lying, deceiving spirit.

In the OT it is written that "the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. " - Exodus 33:11 KJV

I believe it is wrong to assume that means "in a way that can be heard by natural ears" any more than "face to face" means "in a way that each person can see the other"... because that's NOT what face to face means. When God showed himself to Moses in Exodus 33:18-23 he clearly stated that man cannot see his face without dying. But it does mean he spoke clearly, full sentences, etc and "plain English" (we might call it).
I also advise "Don't assume that God speaking directly to people was commonplace in the OT" (not saying you DO assume it). It was rare, even amongst God's people... If otherwise, they wouldn't have needed a Moses. And it didn't just "happen". Moses had to seek God's face constantly. Nobody stopped others from seeking God like that. But how many did? Moses put in the effort... and got the results. Others didn't put in the effort... and didn't get the results. It's not that surprising. That's why I told you if you wanted to discover the how, when, why, where and Will-he-do-it-for-you, it will take EFFORT.

Sorry this was so long, and probably sounded more like a lecture than an encouragement.

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." - Exodus 33:20 KJV

"And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." - Exodus 33:23 KJV

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Runningman · Feb 21, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

Thank-you for clarifying your meaning, and subsequently your beliefs on the matter. This may sound nit-picky on the details but I think this is where @Runningman is getting upset. So please bear with me as it also has to do with your original question.

Consider the following subsets of modern people:

Group A: People who may feel God's lead but don't hear God speak clearly, (with full sentences, perhaps as a man speaks with his friend).
Group B: ...(?)
Group C: People who claim to hear a voice and claim it's God...but are actually insane or (at least are NOT hearing God).

In terms of those subsets, it seems you strongly believe that there is a "Group A" and strongly believe there is a "Group C". Correct?

The question remains... Can you believe there is a "Group B" if it is defined in the following way:

Group B: People who ARE hearing God speak clearly, (perhaps full sentences, perhaps as a man speaks with his friend) and are not insane.

If you CAN, then much is available.

If you cannot believe there is a "Group B" (as defined), it does 3 things:

It explains why Runningman was upset. (Because he doesn't fit Group A, which would only leave the "insane" categorization.)
It also explains why you believe God doesn't speak clearly (in full sentences, and as a man speaks to his friends) as he did in the OT. Because you would have to consider yourself insane if God ever spoke like that. Meanwhile you likely only surround yourself with people whose experiences match your own... (You don't hang out with "insane" people, do you?)... creating a strong confirmation bias.
It creates an obstacle to God speaking to you that way... because God will only give you information in a way that you CAN believe... lest you think he's an evil, lying, deceiving spirit.

In the OT it is written that "the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. " - Exodus 33:11 KJV

I believe it is wrong to assume that means "in a way that can be heard by natural ears" any more than "face to face" means "in a way that each person can see the other"... because that's NOT what face to face means. When God showed himself to Moses in Exodus 33:18-23 he clearly stated that man cannot see his face without dying. But it does mean he spoke clearly, full sentences, etc and "plain English" (we might call it).
I also advise "Don't assume that God speaking directly to people was commonplace in the OT" (not saying you DO assume it). It was rare, even amongst God's people... If otherwise, they wouldn't have needed a Moses. And it didn't just "happen". Moses had to seek God's face constantly. Nobody stopped others from seeking God like that. But how many did? Moses put in the effort... and got the results. Others didn't put in the effort... and didn't get the results. It's not that surprising. That's why I told you if you wanted to discover the how, when, why, where and Will-he-do-it-for-you, it will take EFFORT.

Sorry this was so long, and probably sounded more like a lecture than an encouragement.

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." - Exodus 33:20 KJV

"And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." - Exodus 33:23 KJV

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Dear Kelby,

Yes you seem to understand precisely what the issue is. At first I kinda thought maybe i totally misunderstood his post. More than one person told me that they didn’t see the post the way I did. Then he told me to very plainly seek therapy. There you have it. I understood the original post correctly and I’m sure of that now. I have no faults here. Thanks for being a voice of reason sir!

God bless dear friend
Runningman

KelbyofGod · Feb 21, 2022

Runningman said:

Wellll...

I feel I understand your point because I'm also someone who has heard God speak (in ways I've felt I don't deserve, to be quite honest) and am yet of sound mind. I've just had to learn to "try the spirits" as the scriptures warn and admonish us to do. And I've made some mistakes.

I'll share my view on both sides of this particular coin. I don't think you HAD to be as volatile as you were, (immediately referring to him as an enemy and openly suggesting an inability to believe) as I likewise don't think @KrisWampler HAD to go straight to "insane" in his assumptions. Each made it easy for the other to take offense.

But I did want to say this about your Post#53... At first I thought "WOW that was kind of harsh... going right to "weak in faith" without even trying to soften the blow to the human ego" (which we all have). But then I also read the rest of what you said and thought you gave solid advice for how to strengthen faith in that area.

Not sure how to end this other than to pray you BOTH receive the best of Jesus,

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

KelbyofGod · Feb 21, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

@KrisWampler ;
One thing I should say further on the topic since your point wasn't so much that he spoke audibly from an external perspective rather than internally. But rather you were asking about the face to face aspect. (friend to friend, letting our guard down so to speak).

My habit of reading has been to look for anything that seems cool or of particular benefit, and then ask God for it. When I was younger I happened across that particular passage about Moses and asked God if he would talk to me like that... "as a man speaketh unto his friend", not really expecting to be worthy of it. Part of the reason I wanted it was because I didn't want to be afraid in the presence of God. When friends talk together they don't have to be afraid, and that's why I wanted it. To my surprise, within a few months he began to do just that, to commune with me . And I consider it one of the best (wisest, most fortunate) things I've ever asked. Because when you know God will talk WITH you rather than AT you, and treat you as a friend... it means you don't have to be afraid.. and you can ask him for bigger things than you otherwise would dare to ask.

Do I necessarily expect you to believe that particular testimony? Not really, since it might be quite a leap from your current doctrinal stance. And I've learned that you can't convince anyone of anything if they aren't open to it. But I still have hope that you might. At least you might ask some questions. And you can check out how well he answered my prayer for "a short, pretty blonde with 2 kids, who thinks I'm special" on Lafftur's thread "Tongues is a precious gift from God..." post #1445. He's been faithfully answering my prayers for over 30 years now. And I like it!

Ephesians 3:20 KJV

Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

I decided to take that as a challenge. And I haven't been able to stump him yet.

My apologies for hijacking your thread just a bit. I've been up all night and needed something to do. It seems better to testify than to watch YouTube.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Runningman · Feb 21, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

Thanks Kelby, Let me close with a testimony of my, ahem, "legitimate insanity" 🤭
I was in my bed years ago when I guess the voice of the Lord came to me and asked me if I would give my life to serving the Holy Father, Holy Son, and Holy Spirit. We prayed together and agreed together. I probably wouldn't be a Christian today, maybe I wouldn't be alive either, had I not been recruited directly by the divine. I have my commission and I am a son of God. If that makes me insane then I will wear that badge gladly now. Let God judge me.

I also want to add that I have seen Jesus. I prayed and asked God one day if I can see Jesus. I woke up one day and suddenly there was a cloud there and in the cloud the face of a middle eastern man appeared: That was Jesus of Nazareth.

KelbyofGod · Feb 22, 2022

@kriswampler: It seems I must speak to you now as a dis-en-voiced body.. which is comically ironic in terms of this thread.

BTW, I mean no disrespect to anyone involved, including mods. I just tend to see the humor in situations. Also, I'm not a mod, nor have I made any conscious request to have you silenced in any way. But I see an opportunity...

If I continue to do talk to you when many others have stopped, and no one can see you answer... would some begin to think me a mild version of insane? I'm guessing so. But I'm fairly certain (hoping actually) that you will return to the thread once your exile is reversed. Then, even if you disagree with things I've said, you might just say Hi and such, and probably be thankful that at least someone didn't forget about you just because the world (I mean the BDF) went on without your physical presence.

Of course that's a thinly veiled and only occasionally accurate portrayal of Jesus, where so few continue to interact while the rest think them some version of insane.

And it's main inaccuracy is that YOU probably cannot respond right now. Is that frustrating? (It is if you have anything you'd like to say. )

And with that idea in mind... Why would you adopt a doctrine that puts a similar restriction on God?

God has lots of things to teach us... As he said to his disciples "I have many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." (which means they have to be explained along the way... as they grow) And he goes on to tell them (and us) how that will happen. Does he say "I"m going to give you a book that holds all the answers... I'll gather a team to select things that have ALREADY been said and those will be all that you need"? NOPE. Man gathered that team. Jesus said he was going to give us his SPIRIT and that his SPIRIT will teach us all things, bring all things to our remembrance that he's said (rather than one book doing it), would show us things to come, will pray things we cannot because we don't know perfectly, etc, etc. That is ongoing interaction.

Also, I"m guessing there are inaccuracies in how I've portrayed what you HAVE said and HAVE written.. and if disallowed to speak, you cannot correct those inaccuracies even if they were made accidentally.

Those are just some of the reasons God still SPEAKS.

In the BDF, if you are under a "watch only" restriction (which is my guess), you won't be able to speak until the restriction is lifted. So has the doctrine that "God no longer speaks" restricted God from speaking to many people.. because he is subject to his word to a higher degree than we are. He said "I stand at the door and knock." But he cannot enter in and have the real conversations until those in the household remove the restriction (open the door) so he is allowed to enter in.

And he cannot just go around the door (the restriction, the doctrine) and enter in some other way because his word says any who do that are thieves and robbers. (no matter how much he knows they would benefit from the exchange)

But I can post in an open forum without breaking any of those rules... which may be the only way you could hear an explanation like this.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

riverhooks · Feb 22, 2022

John146 said:

I would tend to agree . Hopefully your study will lead you in your relationship with your Savior. Lest you be corrupted by theology.

GRACE_ambassador · Feb 22, 2022

KelbyofGod said:

God has lots of things to teach us... As he said to his disciples "I have many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." (which means they have to be explained along the way... as they grow) And he goes on to tell them (and us) how that will happen. Does he say "I"m going to give you a book that holds all the answers... I'll gather a team to select things that have ALREADY been said and those will be all that you need"? NOPE. Man gathered that team. Jesus said he was going to give us his SPIRIT and that his SPIRIT will teach us all things, bring all things to our remembrance that he's said (rather than one book doing it), would show us things to come, will pray things we cannot because we don't know perfectly, etc, etc. That is ongoing interaction.

Also, I"m guessing there are inaccuracies in how I've portrayed what you HAVE said and HAVE written.. and if disallowed to speak, you cannot correct those inaccuracies even if they were made accidentally.

Those are just some of the reasons God still SPEAKS.

So, let me get this Correct: Extra-BIBLICAL revelation is ok, as long as it is
NOT from any man, But IS "From The Audible Voice" of God?

Just wanted to "clarify" that I am hearing this idea Correctly...

KelbyofGod · Feb 23, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

Which BIBLE are you worried about Extra-BIBLICAL-IZING ?

The KJV bible that I read has words that aren't included in some other bibles like the NIV. Any words that are unique to the one are by definition "Extra-BIBLICAL" to the other.

Also by definition ANYTHING GOD says (to the angels... or anyone else) is the word of God.

So a better question would be "Does the bible contain every word of God?". I think it's rather obvious that it doesn't.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

KelbyofGod · Feb 25, 2022

@Kriswampler

Not sure if you're still checking in on your threads but I wanted to say HI because I haven't forgotten you.

In case you don't see this in the thread "Tongues is a Precious Gift from God", I'm reposting it here, because I still crack up thinking about it. and here's a Chris Farley link for reference in case you aren't familiar with his work. And yes, this is a true story from last night.

Also in that thread, I'm posting accounts of several things God has done for me, often including times he's spoken to me "as a friend" meaning in a helpful and friendly tone, not a booming THIS-IS-GOD style.

------ What happened last night, reposted: -----

OK, this is off topic but I just got to see something AWESOME happen:

I'd stepped away because my wife was on the phone with one of our daughters who has several children. The one who is about 12 wanted to speak with me. He's on the autistic spectrum and doesn't socialize much so it was kind of a big deal.

Well, it's video chat and on speaker so 'mom' is in on the conversation too. Soon the topic turns to God because 'mom' had a dream she wanted to share with me. 'Son' was apparently curious so 'mom' asked me to share a dream that I'd had. I chose a short one that later came to pass word for word, image for image. Son is trying to process this.

Mom starts explaining how God had shown her glimpses of several places before she moved to the state she now lives in... against family advice. When in that new state, she sees the places she'd been shown by God, she knows she was in the right place.

For me this was really exciting because:

Son is very deliberate, literal and facts-only so he'd had a hard time with the concept of God.
This is the first time I'd heard 'mom' speak so much about God to her kids... and she was doing a really good job.

The most awesome thing though (in my humor-oriented brain) was that she (for reals) explained how even if you make mistakes along the way, God can keep you and have you in the right place "whether you are an astronaut out in space, or living in a van down by the river". LOLOLOL

That made my night.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

riverhooks · Feb 25, 2022

I was in Tahoe where I lived for almost 2 decades. One day it was if the Lord took me by the ear and walked me down the street. I felt He wanted to speak to me. It was dark I walked across the street to the bijou golf course instinctively step over a small wooden barrier fence around a putting green walked over to the green and got on my face. It was quite dramatic. The atmosphere was intense with anticipation that The Lord was going to say something. I got real still as I humbled myself there in the dark. The Lord quickened two scriptures to me that were spoken directly to my heart. He said, “ The work of God is to believe on Him whom God has sent” , He also said
“The Just shall live by faith”. That was it . We were done. I was basically dismissed and went back to house. To sum it up , I knew it was God I knew He had Spoken and I knew it was the Holy Spirit that brought those scriptures to mind. I John Chapter 16 you will see Jesus speak of the ministry of the Holy Spirit a.k.a , the Spirit of God, The Spirit of the Father , The Spirit of Christ , You will see from the second Chapter of 1 Corinthians that more on this of the Spirit of God revealing to us the things of God. Everyone who has a Bible can use it as a Road Map to a more intimate relationship with the Living God. You can draw near to God and God will draw near to you. “ Am not I a God at hand and not a God afar off “ . My friends , Jesus and getting to know the Spirit of God is what you are called to . Do bounce around from version to version. just advice. The Holy Spirit will bring to your remembrance those things of scripture. Don’t listen to those who want to draw attention to theology . Two things will make you a strong man or woman of God . The Word of God and Prayer. Use the Bible to cultivate your relationship with Jesus. Lest you be corrupted by theology.

Carry_Your_Name · Feb 25, 2022

Very simple. Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship. You've done talking to your woman, she's done talking to you. Throughout the bible, there's a gradually widening gap between God and man. From Adam to Joshua, God directly communicated with the leader of his chosen people; then mostly through the prophets and occasionally the angels; from Jesus all through the dark ages, your middle man is the priests, the clergy in the church; ever since the Reformation, you have a direct connection with God through the Holy Spirit. You wanna hear God? Read the bible. You wanna hear God audibly? Read the bible out loud.

oyster67 · Feb 25, 2022

KrisWampler said:

We now have the Holy Spirit as our Comforter and Guide.

oyster67 · Feb 25, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

Amen!

Carry_Your_Name said:

I like that.

Lanolin · Feb 25, 2022

the 'shut up and listen' post was the best

thing is God does speak in a still small voice but few people hear Him cos their ears are often plugged into something else.
so turn the radio and tv or whatver OFF go to a private place to pray and start listening.

Grandpa · Feb 25, 2022

riverhooks said:

I lived in Tahoe for almost 3 decades.

I used to golf at Bijou golf course. It was the cheapest in town. Lots of geese there, though. My other spot was Tahoe Paradise golf course. Never golfed at Edgewood but always wanted to.

When I first started reading the Old Testament I had a dream that a reverse tornado was sucking people up into the sky. It was at the Y in Tahoe. About 1/4 of the people were getting sucked up and the other people that weren't getting sucked up were just walking around like nothing was happening. I was across the street from where the old Kmart was at the old gas station and was getting sucked up into this reverse tornado. I was terrified. I was holding onto a truck fender but my feet were in the air. I knew I would lose grip soon.

I would later wonder if this dream was about the "rapture". Where people expect its a one time event but maybe its happening all the time and those who don't get "sucked up" just don't notice. A spiritual look at the calling of God and how He draws us to Himself.

riverhooks · Feb 25, 2022

Grandpa said:

I lived in Tahoe for almost 3 decades.

I used to golf at Bijou golf course. It was the cheapest in town. Lots of geese there, though. My other spot was Tahoe Paradise golf course. Never golfed at Edgewood but always wanted to.

When I first started reading the Old Testament I had a dream that a reverse tornado was sucking people up into the sky. It was at the Y in Tahoe. About 1/4 of the people were getting sucked up and the other people that weren't getting sucked up were just walking around like nothing was happening. I was across the street from where the old Kmart was at the old gas station and was getting sucked up into this reverse tornado. I was terrified. I was holding onto a truck fender but my feet were in the air. I knew I would lose grip soon.

I would later wonder if this dream was about the "rapture". Where people expect its a one time event but maybe its happening all the time and those who don't get "sucked up" just don't notice. A spiritual look at the calling of God and how He draws us to Himself.

Sounds like a nightmare. God has not given us the spirit of fear but power love and a sound mind. The Old K mart oh yeah.

riverhooks · Feb 25, 2022

riverhooks said:

was there from 78-95 in my 20’s in the 70’s& my 70’s in the 20’s

Grandpa · Feb 25, 2022

riverhooks said:

1981-2006 for me. We were on the Nevada side when I was a kid and then the California side when I moved out of the house as an "adult".

Why does God not talk directly/audibly to us as in the OT?

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