Why don't we keep the Sabbath?

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gatta

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#101
#101
livingbygrace said:
So strictly speaking we are not under the law(including the commandments) But by not being under it we do actually uphold it. Does this make sense to you?
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I am not the one kicking and screaming about upholding the 10 commandments .... I ACTUALLY do uphold it. And am proud to say that I uphold all 10, not just the ones I choose because it is convenient for me.

Again, God is good and He is in control. He created the DAY, He sactified it, He told me to observe it, and I am obedient to Him. AMEN
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

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#102
gatta said:
I neglected to comment on this section of the post.


Further more, if God did not require it, why did He write in STONE with His own FINGER ... 'REMEMBER the Sabbath Day" ?

****end of gatta quote****


Let me ask you something. If the ten commandments, and the Sabbath Law are eternal, as you claim them to be, then why did not Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob keep them? Why is there no mention of Noah keeping them? Noah had a covenant with God, and yet did not keep the Sabbath. Abraham had a covenant with God, yet did not keep it. The bible says that God walked with Abraham. Are you saying that Abraham, in his 900+ years on the earth, who walked with God, and knew Noah's sons personally, was too spiritually immature to receive a law which you claim is dear to God's heart, and is for all people in all times? Was Moses, who was not allowed to see God, and not even allowed into the promise land, given something that was denied to Abraham? The bible makes no mention of the ten commandments with either the Noahic or Abramhamic covenants, which are both clearly defined. The first mention of the ten commandments is along with the Mosaic covenant, as part of it.

This law was a national law, given only to Israel to govern them as a nation.

Exodus 20: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

God makes this statement immediately before giving the ten commandments. Did God bring the Gentiles out of Egypt?

And the law had a limited duration.

Galatians 3: 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

That seed is Christ. And once He came, and fulfilled the law, it was completed and ceased to have legality.
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superdave5221

superdave5221

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#103
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#103
superdave5221 said:
gatta said:
I neglected to comment on this section of the post.


Further more, if God did not require it, why did He write in STONE with His own FINGER ... 'REMEMBER the Sabbath Day" ?

****end of gatta quote****


Let me ask you something. If the ten commandments, and the Sabbath Law are eternal, as you claim them to be, then why did not Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob keep them? Why is there no mention of Noah keeping them? Noah had a covenant with God, and yet did not keep the Sabbath. Abraham had a covenant with God, yet did not keep it. The bible says that God walked with Abraham. Are you saying that Abraham, in his 900+ years on the earth, who walked with God, and knew Noah's sons personally, was too spiritually immature to receive a law which you claim is dear to God's heart, and is for all people in all times? Was Moses, who was not allowed to see God, and not even allowed into the promise land, given something that was denied to Abraham? The bible makes no mention of the ten commandments with either the Noahic or Abramhamic covenants, which are both clearly defined. The first mention of the ten commandments is along with the Mosaic covenant, as part of it.

This law was a national law, given only to Israel to govern them as a nation.

Exodus 20: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

God makes this statement immediately before giving the ten commandments. Did God bring the Gentiles out of Egypt?

And the law had a limited duration.

Galatians 3: 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

That seed is Christ. And once He came, and fulfilled the law, it was completed and ceased to have legality.
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My mistake, before being berated for it, Abraham was 175 years old when he died. He was still contempory with Noah's sons however.
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1

1still_waters

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#104
#104
Hey guys, emotions seem to be rising. Please be mindful of that.
 
M

mpaper345

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You are correct glenwood74 we observe the sabbath in the New Testament by receiving the Spirit and receiving a spiritual rest and celebrate the New Jerusalem,the new heaven and new earth that Jesus went to prepare for us.

The Old Testament sabbath was only for the Jews to celebrate this earth and is a physical rest.The New Testament sabbath is for all Christians to celebrate the new heaven and new earth and is a spiritual rest.

That which is physical is first then that which is spiritual.First a physical sabbath then a spiritual sabbath.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear(Isaiah 28:10-12).

When you receive the Spirit you have a spiritual rest.


14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ(Colossians 2:14-17).

Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel and nailed them to His cross talking them out of the way for they were only temporary until Jesus came which include meats,drinks,respect of a holy day,or of the new moon or of the sabbath days.

The Bible says let no man judge you concerning these things which means that someone cannot tell you to observe these physical ordinances which include the physical sabbath days because Jesus took them out of the way nailing them to His cross.

They were only a shadow of things but the body is of Christ.

Matt
 
G

gatta

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#106
#106
superdave5221 said:
It is you who take things out of context. Circumcision IS the law and represented the Law to the Judaizers.
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Okay, I am going to try and break this to you as gently as possible. The circumcission was not the encompassment of the law to the Jews. God made a covenant with ABRAM and thus the circumcission was instituted. Not with MOSES. The circumcission was a SIGN to the ISRAELITES of being the Chosen Nation. The LAW which Jesus fulfilled on the cross was not the circumcission law or the 10 commandments. it was the CEREMONIAL law. And besides, the LAW existed even before the covenant was made with Abram.

superdave5221 said:
The Mosaic covenant includes the 10 commandments. If they were only discussing circumcision, then why in verse 15:10 does Paul speak of a yoke that even the Jews could not bear? The Jews had no problem with circumcision. All Jews were circumcised.
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The Mosaic covenant was not about the CIRCUMCISSION. That was in place ALREADY by the time God made the covenant with Moses at Mt Sinai.
The yoke Paul referred to here is the CEREMONIAL LAW (all 613 of them). THAT is what was the yoke on the necks of the people - the "don't touch, don't wash, do wash, do touch" laws - THAT is what weighed them down and was what they couldn't do. And the PHARISEES didn't make it easier on the people.

The 10 commandments is about love. The love we should have for GOD (and should show by what we are obedient to) and the love we should have for our neigbours. Jesus made that distinction between the Law and the commandments and what the relationship was between them. The 10 commandments are the basis on which the LAW was built. The LAW hinges on the commandments, not the other way around.

If not for the 10 commandments, the law would be worthless. the 10 commandments give meaning to the law. And the 10 commandments are a unit ... they can't be seperated. James says: If you break one you break them all.
 
VW

VW

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gatta said:
Okay, I am going to try and break this to you as gently as possible. The circumcission was not the encompassment of the law to the Jews. God made a covenant with ABRAM and thus the circumcission was instituted. Not with MOSES. The circumcission was a SIGN to the ISRAELITES of being the Chosen Nation. The LAW which Jesus fulfilled on the cross was not the circumcission law or the 10 commandments. it was the CEREMONIAL law. And besides, the LAW existed even before the covenant was made with Abram.


The Mosaic covenant was not about the CIRCUMCISSION. That was in place ALREADY by the time God made the covenant with Moses at Mt Sinai.
The yoke Paul referred to here is the CEREMONIAL LAW (all 613 of them). THAT is what was the yoke on the necks of the people - the "don't touch, don't wash, do wash, do touch" laws - THAT is what weighed them down and was what they couldn't do. And the PHARISEES didn't make it easier on the people.

The 10 commandments is about love. The love we should have for GOD (and should show by what we are obedient to) and the love we should have for our neigbours. Jesus made that distinction between the Law and the commandments and what the relationship was between them. The 10 commandments are the basis on which the LAW was built. The LAW hinges on the commandments, not the other way around.

If not for the 10 commandments, the law would be worthless. the 10 commandments give meaning to the law. And the 10 commandments are a unit ... they can't be seperated. James says: If you break one you break them all.
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This is wrong also.

It does not even stand the test of scripture, much less the test of the Spirit.
 
1

1still_waters

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#108
#108
Once again, please watch your tones folks, I feel things getting heated and escalating. Please be careful if you find yourself getting too emotional and ready to type something you shouldn't type.
 
L

livingbygrace

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It is worth remembering that Paul specifically said that it was one of ther Ten Commandments that sin used condemned him
 
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G

gatta

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#110
#110
superdave5221 said:
Let me ask you something. If the ten commandments, and the Sabbath Law are eternal, as you claim them to be, then why did not Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob keep them? Why is there no mention of Noah keeping them? Noah had a covenant with God, and yet did not keep the Sabbath. Abraham had a covenant with God, yet did not keep it. The bible says that God walked with Abraham. Are you saying that Abraham, in his 900+ years on the earth, who walked with God, and knew Noah's sons personally, was too spiritually immature to receive a law which you claim is dear to God's heart, and is for all people in all times? Was Moses, who was not allowed to see God, and not even allowed into the promise land, given something that was denied to Abraham? The bible makes no mention of the ten commandments with either the Noahic or Abramhamic covenants, which are both clearly defined. The first mention of the ten commandments is along with the Mosaic covenant, as part of it.
Exodus 20: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

God makes this statement immediately before giving the ten commandments. Did God bring the Gentiles out of Egypt?
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Well, seeing that you asked, it would be my pleasure to explain :D.
The reason the first mention of the 10 commandments and the rest of the law is made AFTER the exodus from Egypt is simply this: before Jacob and his sons went to Egypt, they were part of the chosen therefore circumcised and they followed the decrees of God given to Adam and Eve and which then passed from generation to generation. God didn't need to write it down for them on stone, they complied. It was a given, because of who they were - The Chosen.

But when they were in Egypt they were exposed to the foreign gods and started to proselytize to the foreign religion. Until they forgot their roots. They were in Egypt for over 300 years and as slaves. They didn't have their 'chosen' identity anymore. They had forgotten who they were. And God called them out of Egypt to TEACH them again who they were. And He did. It took Him 40 years in the desert to teach a new generation, but eventually He brought them through the desert and into the promised land. Again, to be the chosen nation! What a great promise this is for us! God dioes this for us too. He brings us through the 'desert" too. Sometimes it takes longer ... sometimes we learn quickly. But as the chosen, we too will be in the promised land.

And to answer your question on bringing gentiles out of Egypt: God brings me out of a spiritual Egypt on an almost daily basis! So, yes! The gentiles were brought out of "egypt" too - only it was a spiritual one!.

superdave5221 said:
And the law had a limited duration.

Galatians 3: 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

That seed is Christ. And once He came, and fulfilled the law, it was completed and ceased to have legality.
Click to expand...
EXACTLY!!!! The ceremonial laws didn't have a purpose anymore after Jesus came to FULFILL it. It was only temporary (that why it was kept on the outside of the ark of the covenant and not on the inside)
;)
 
G

gatta

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#111
#111
1still_waters said:
Hey guys, emotions seem to be rising. Please be mindful of that.
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Apologies. I will tone it down. It is a wonderful discussion and I can become a but zealous at times. I will try to contain myself :)
 
L

livingbygrace

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When PPaul speaks of dying to the law, he never differentiates between the Ten Commandments and the rerst of the Mosaic law. In fact after speaking of not being under the law and that the lkaw aroused in him the sinful passions he gives. 'Thou shalt not covet' as an example of failing under law.
 
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G

gatta

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#113
VW said:
This is wrong also.

It does not even stand the test of scripture, much less the test of the Spirit.
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In the spirit of sharing and teaching, could you please explain what is wrong? If I am wrong, please provide the scriptures to prove me wrong so that I can learn from this experience.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. ;)
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

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gatta said:
Well, seeing that you asked, it would be my pleasure to explain :D.
The reason the first mention of the 10 commandments and the rest of the law is made AFTER the exodus from Egypt is simply this: before Jacob and his sons went to Egypt, they were part of the chosen therefore circumcised and they followed the decrees of God given to Adam and Eve and which then passed from generation to generation. God didn't need to write it down for them on stone, they complied. It was a given, because of who they were - The Chosen.

But when they were in Egypt they were exposed to the foreign gods and started to proselytize to the foreign religion. Until they forgot their roots. They were in Egypt for over 300 years and as slaves. They didn't have their 'chosen' identity anymore. They had forgotten who they were. And God called them out of Egypt to TEACH them again who they were. And He did. It took Him 40 years in the desert to teach a new generation, but eventually He brought them through the desert and into the promised land. Again, to be the chosen nation! What a great promise this is for us! God dioes this for us too. He brings us through the 'desert" too. Sometimes it takes longer ... sometimes we learn quickly. But as the chosen, we too will be in the promised land.

And to answer your question on bringing gentiles out of Egypt: God brings me out of a spiritual Egypt on an almost daily basis! So, yes! The gentiles were brought out of "egypt" too - only it was a spiritual one!.



EXACTLY!!!! The ceremonial laws didn't have a purpose anymore after Jesus came to FULFILL it. It was only temporary (that why it was kept on the outside of the ark of the covenant and not on the inside)
;)
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Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Can you really read this in context, and believe that Paul is speaking only of the ceremonial law?
 
G

gatta

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#115
#115
livingbygrace said:
When PPaul speaks of dying to the law, he never differentiates between the Ten Commandments and the rerst of the Mosaic law. In fact after speaking of not being under the law and that the lkaw aroused in him the sinful passions he gives. 'Thou shalt not covet' as an example of failing under law.
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Understandable, but you have to admit that the 10 commandments was the basis on which the law was based. And altho it formed part of ONE unit, there was a distiction made right from the inception of the Mosaic laws. If not so, then God would have written ALL 613 law in stone. And when placed in the ark of the covenant ALL 613 would have been placed inside the ark instead of just the 10 commandments.
 
G

gatta

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#116
#116
superdave5221 said:
Can you really read this in context, and believe that Paul is speaking only of the ceremonial law?
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Okay, lets turn the table somewhat.

Are you saying that the 10 commandments are null and void?
 
L

livingbygrace

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gatta said:
Understandable, but you have to admit that the 10 commandments was the basis on which the law was based. And altho it formed part of ONE unit, there was a distiction made right from the inception of the Mosaic laws. If not so, then God would have written ALL 613 law in stone. And when placed in the ark of the covenant ALL 613 would have been placed inside the ark instead of just the 10 commandments.
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I understand what you are saying from your view of this. But the point is no-one could obey the law. And although I am not an expert on th Mosaic law, I would imagine that the hardest parts of that law to obey would be found in the Ten commandments.

But I feel that the real point of this is found in Rom3:31. No-one is saying the Ten Commandments(or nine to me!) are bad laws in any way, but how do we truly obey them? According to Paul he had to die to the law in order to uphold it.

Therefore I do not see how the Ten Commandments were left in place while the rest of the law was abolished
 
superdave5221

superdave5221

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#118
gatta said:
Okay, lets turn the table somewhat.

Are you saying that the 10 commandments are null and void?
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Not at all. They are fulfilled. And as with any contract, once the conditions are met, the contract is complete and no longer binding. If you have a contract to mow someone's grass for a year, at the end of the year, the contract is no longer binding. It has been fulfilled. The ten commandments, and all requirements of the law were met when Jesus died on the cross. If you look at the Sermon on the Mount, which is the roadmap for righteous living, there is no mention of keeping the Sabbath. When the Apostles started the Church on Pentecost, it was on the first day of the week. The Apostles, who were guided by the Holy Spirit, routinely met and "broke bread" on the first day of the week. Why would Jesus send the Holy Spirit to mislead the Apostles into not keeping the Sabbath if it were still binding? There are many sermons that are reproduced in Acts by Peter and Paul in their evangelizing efforts. In none of these sermons is the ten commandments mentioned. This could be explained away by those sermons to Jews, who perhaps did not need to be taught about the law, but even in sermons to Gentiles, in no case is the ten commandments ever taught. If we cannot look to the Apostles, who were "filled with the Holy Spirit" for an example in this matter, than where can we look?
 
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livingbygrace

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gatta said:
Okay, lets turn the table somewhat.

Are you saying that the 10 commandments are null and void?
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I would say null and void for the Christian in a legal sense, but any Christian who has reached maturity and continually broke most of them wouild not get into Heaven. Does that make sense?
 
VW

VW

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gatta said:
In the spirit of sharing and teaching, could you please explain what is wrong? If I am wrong, please provide the scriptures to prove me wrong so that I can learn from this experience.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. ;)
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If you look closely at when the Lord gave the 10 commandments, you will find that as a preface, He said that this was the covenant between them and Him.

In 1st John, we find that the Lord's commandments are two, to believe in Him whom God has sent, and to love one another just as Jesus loves us.

And throughout Paul's letters, the Spirit teaches that the Law is not of faith. That those who were under the Law were not of faith.

But the Spirit says that if one needs the Law to keep from sinning, or even to know that they are sinning, then they are not born of Him, and are not in the faith.

I do not say these things to critisize, but to ask that we look and seek and ask the Spirit to show us the truth.

In His peace,
vic
 
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