Why have we quit standing up for whats right?

[aspen]

You added winos. Noone said anything about winos. Wow, you are judging the main characters in the O.T. YOU are judging? Moses an idolator? Abraham a slanderer? Isaiah greedy? You said ALL the main characters in the O.T. You are absolutely right. YOU should not judge.

Yes - you got me - I used the word wino instead of Paul's word drunkard - of course, Paul didn't even actually say that word either since he wrote in Greek.

Of course, I never named names, but as a matter of public record, the OT has described many of it's main characters as sinners - many unrepentant sinners.

The fact is, Paul was speaking to a specific church and the main issue was to not boast about worldly behavior. To emphasis his point he told them not only to stop boasting about the worldly behavior, do not even associate with people who engage in it. It was meant to point out the sin of every one in the church - instead of realizing ourselves in the text, we use it to single out a sin most are not even tempted by - how safe.

 

[aspen]

Seems to me that the only reason we are even allowed to see personal sin in other people is so it will remind us of our own weaknesses and where we need God's sanctifying Grace - it has nothing to do with correcting other people.

 

[oopsies]

I think there is a misunderstanding here... no one ever said not to love others - inside and outside of the church - what we are called is not to agree to the behaviour. Yes, there are idolators, greedy people, and all sorts of people within the church. That doesn't mean we should support or agree with what they are doing. But out of love, a brother or sister in Christ should make it clear that it's not acceptable behaviour in God's eyes. If they choose to keep up with it, that's their problem. God will deal with them. But for all practical purposes, it is probably better not to "hang around" (which does not mean ignore them) these people closely because their way of thinking can change you and take you off the right and narrow path. Think about it for a moment - if a close friend or family member cheats and lies on their taxes, they are aware of it, you are aware of it, are you going to discuss taxes with them anytime soon? No. You're going to avoid that topic if you're near them. Are you going to trust that person with money or go to them for sound moral advice? No, of course not because they've shown themselves to be irresponsible. Will you still be a friend to them? I'm sure you will and I probably would too. Same thing here but spoken in a church environment and in biblical context. Someone who fornicates and calls themselves a Christian and touts what they do - are you going to hang around them to learn what they believe to be biblical? I sure hope not. Are you going to ask them for marriage and relationship advice? Probably not. Are you going to still be their friend if you were their friend before? Probably.

 

[imoss]

Seems to me that the only reason we are even allowed to see personal sin in other people is so it will remind us of our own weaknesses and where we need God's sanctifying Grace - it has nothing to do with correcting other people.

Interesting I was just talking to my girlfriend about that today... she said how she got soooo mad at this friend of her's for doing something... beyond livid & then found herself doing the exact same thing the very next day.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

The Bible speaks of the different ways for us to deal with what we see in others--some to just pray, others confront, others something in between. What we need is love and discernment.

 

[oopsies]

homophobes

That word is such a misnomer...

 

[oopsies]

Interesting I was just talking to my girlfriend about that today... she said how she got soooo mad at this friend of her's for doing something... beyond livid & then found herself doing the exact same thing the very next day.

Yes, that happens a lot but then we (hopefully, like your friend) learn from it. But if no one says it's wrong, then no one will ever learn from it or even bother to make an effort to learn the error.

 

[aspen]

strange as it may seem, other people's sin is a blessing for us, if we use it as a mirror.

 

[aspen]

I think there is a misunderstanding here... no one ever said not to love others - inside and outside of the church - what we are called is not to agree to the behaviour. Yes, there are idolators, greedy people, and all sorts of people within the church. That doesn't mean we should support or agree with what they are doing. But out of love, a brother or sister in Christ should make it clear that it's not acceptable behaviour in God's eyes. If they choose to keep up with it, that's their problem. God will deal with them. But for all practical purposes, it is probably better not to "hang around" (which does not mean ignore them) these people closely because their way of thinking can change you and take you off the right and narrow path. Think about it for a moment - if a close friend or family member cheats and lies on their taxes, they are aware of it, you are aware of it, are you going to discuss taxes with them anytime soon? No. You're going to avoid that topic if you're near them. Are you going to trust that person with money or go to them for sound moral advice? No, of course not because they've shown themselves to be irresponsible. Will you still be a friend to them? I'm sure you will and I probably would too. Same thing here but spoken in a church environment and in biblical context. Someone who fornicates and calls themselves a Christian and touts what they do - are you going to hang around them to learn what they believe to be biblical? I sure hope not. Are you going to ask them for marriage and relationship advice? Probably not. Are you going to still be their friend if you were their friend before? Probably.

I found your response thoughtful. I guess I just have to say that I've never been under the illusion that my words have a direct impact on stopping personal sin in others. So - unless I can use their sin to allow God to root out my own - it really doesn't impact me unless it is directed towards me in some manner.

Also, I've never changed someone's self destructive behavior by pointing it out or even trying to snuff it out with silent disapproval - never happened - ever. And I have been an effective counselor for 20 years.

Instead, I know I've done my job when a client tells me about how they changed their behavior - seemingly without my help! If they believe it to be completely their own process and take on the empowerment to change the course of the their lives I know it will have staying power.

 

[oopsies]

I found your response thoughtful. I guess I just have to say that I've never been under the illusion that my words have a direct impact on stopping personal sin in others. So - unless I can use their sin to allow God to root out my own - it really doesn't impact me unless it is directed towards me in some manner.

Also, I've never changed someone's self destructive behavior by pointing it out or even trying to snuff it out with silent disapproval - never happened - ever. And I have been an effective counselor for 20 years.

Instead, I know I've done my job when a client tells me about how they changed their behavior - seemingly without my help! If they believe it to be completely their own process and take on the empowerment to change the course of the their lives I know it will have staying power.

My personality type doesn't permit me to go straight up to a person and say "What you're doing is wrong. Stop it." Rather, I bring up topics on forgiveness and the like. "Sooo, what do you think about forgiveness?" A discussion ensues and I ask all various sorts of questions from different angles. Eventually, one of my questions is exactly what they're doing/going through. They figure it out but from their perspective, all I did was create the discussion - they start thinking about themselves and their situation on their own. What they do afterward is up to them. But from their perspective, I didn't tell them they were doing something wrong.

I think people underestimate the Holy Spirit's power of conviction - Christians will be convicted. It is their choice on whether to ignore the conviction or to obey.

 

[aspen]

I am sure you are quite skilled at talking with people, rather than at them. I do not deny God using me to impact people's lives - all I am saying is He can do it without my awareness or with my awareness or my willingness to confront people head on or not at all.

I am glad that we can agree that God is good and 100% effective for purposes of sanctification!

 

[Nuhen]

Look, the issue of homosexuality is a non-issue. We who follow G-d are called to a higher standard. Those who do not follow G-d are not called to the same standard. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told to force other people to follow our standards, nor are we to force the Scriptures on them. That's G-d's job, not yours.

This is why, while my religious brethren stood on one side of Stockdale Highway on Nov. 4, 2008, holding up signs that supported Proposition 8, which would ban gay marriage from the state of California, I stood on the other side of the street with the people who held up signs saying "Stop the Hate, Vote No on 8".

 

[aspen]

Look, the issue of homosexuality is a non-issue. We who follow G-d are called to a higher standard. Those who do not follow G-d are not called to the same standard. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told to force other people to follow our standards, nor are we to force the Scriptures on them. That's G-d's job, not yours.

This is why, while my religious brethren stood on one side of Stockdale Highway on Nov. 4, 2008, holding up signs that supported Proposition 8, which would ban gay marriage from the state of California, I stood on the other side of the street with the people who held up signs saying "Stop the Hate, Vote No on 8".

Great post.

 

[oopsies]

Look, the issue of homosexuality is a non-issue. We who follow G-d are called to a higher standard. Those who do not follow G-d are not called to the same standard. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told to force other people to follow our standards, nor are we to force the Scriptures on them. That's G-d's job, not yours.

This is why, while my religious brethren stood on one side of Stockdale Highway on Nov. 4, 2008, holding up signs that supported Proposition 8, which would ban gay marriage from the state of California, I stood on the other side of the street with the people who held up signs saying "Stop the Hate, Vote No on 8".

I think the first important thing to do is to specify the framework. For example, I was talking within a religious framework - namely, how to deal with these things within the Church. I assume based on your post, that you are now moving us out of that framework and into whether we should seep or permit our beliefs to influence the secular world?

If that is the framework we're now talking within, I would say yes and no. Depends on whether part of my taxes will be used to support something that I don't support. For example, I hear that in the US, there's a bill being pushed through that will make a portion of an American's tax pay for abortion or something. If that's true, I would not support that bill.

As for this Proposition 8, based on what you said, I suppose it would have to be conditional on whether I am paying for part of the gay marriage licensing, etc. If yes, I would support this "Proposition 8" thing. If not, I could care less. But I assume that I would have to if I lived in California and Proposition 8 does not pass?

 

[Nuhen]

I think the first important thing to do is to specify the framework. For example, I was talking within a religious framework - namely, how to deal with these things within the Church. I assume based on your post, that you are now moving us out of that framework and into whether we should seep or permit our beliefs to influence the secular world?

If that is the framework we're now talking within, I would say yes and no. Depends on whether part of my taxes will be used to support something that I don't support. For example, I hear that in the US, there's a bill being pushed through that will make a portion of an American's tax pay for abortion or something. If that's true, I would not support that bill.

As for this Proposition 8, based on what you said, I suppose it would have to be conditional on whether I am paying for part of the gay marriage licensing, etc. If yes, I would support this "Proposition 8" thing. If not, I could care less. But I assume that I would have to if I lived in California and Proposition 8 does not pass?

Yeah, if Prop 8 failed, some CA tax dollars would go to paying for the marriage licenses.

But then, that's where I have a list of solutions to that issue that would make it a non-issue. Namely, either: a) getting government out of the business of marriage completely (which would still allow straights and gays to marry), thereby making it where you don't pay taxes on ANYONE'S marriage licenses, or b) allow Americans to choose where their tax dollars go.

Personally, I'm more in favor of (a) and less of (b), but both of them would fix the problem.

Also, you're absolutely correct - with this absolutely vile healthcare bill comes a provision where American tax dollars will fund abortions.

 

[oopsies]

Yeah, if Prop 8 failed, some CA tax dollars would go to paying for the marriage licenses.

You really do like to play on syntax rather than on semantics. Whatever, this will be my last post in this thread.

But then, that's where I have a list of solutions to that issue that would make it a non-issue. Namely, either: a) getting government out of the business of marriage completely (which would still allow straights and gays to marry), thereby making it where you don't pay taxes on ANYONE'S marriage licenses, or b) allow Americans to choose where their tax dollars go.

Personally, I'm more in favor of (a) and less of (b), but both of them would fix the problem.

Also, you're absolutely correct - with this absolutely vile healthcare bill comes a provision where American tax dollars will fund abortions.

So knowing this, you can't really say that people don't have a point. But you make it sound like it's such a terrible thing for them to support Proposition 8 - making it out into a hate issue when in fact, it has very little to do with that. If they disagree, they obviously wouldn't want to pay for it. If they agree, as in your case, you wouldn't mind to help pay for it. I see nothing wrong with them supporting Proposition 8 and I don't see what it has to do with Christianity or religion for that matter because it doesn't just apply to Christians or religious folk. Anyone who doesn't support gay marriage in theory wouldn't want to be paying for it and this goes for non-Christians and atheists too. This goes for everything else - abortion, legalized narcotics use, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Nuhen]

You really do like to play on syntax rather than on semantics. Whatever, this will be my last post in this thread.

Huh? What syntax/semantics are in that post?

So knowing this, you can't really say that people don't have a point. But you make it sound like it's such a terrible thing for them to support Proposition 8 - making it out into a hate issue when in fact, it has very little to do with that. If they disagree, they obviously wouldn't want to pay for it. If they agree, as in your case, you wouldn't mind to help pay for it. I see nothing wrong with them supporting Proposition 8 and I don't see what it has to do with Christianity or religion for that matter because it doesn't just apply to Christians or religious folk. Anyone who doesn't support gay marriage in theory wouldn't want to be paying for it and this goes for non-Christians and atheists too. This goes for everything else - abortion, legalized narcotics use, etc. etc. etc.

Well, actually, I know my area very well, and in this particular case, 90% of the people in CA against gay marriage and for Prop 8 were Christians or other religious people that wanted to restrict homosexuals' right to marry based on the bible.

 

[david1994]

I agree. I don't think it's our job to take her off the air, but I would at least like to see Christians who realize that it's not right to thank God and gays in the same sentence. I think the problem is that Christians are afraid to be separate from the world e.g. peer pressure. They're afraid to stand up for what's right, because they will be criticized by Christians and un-Christians, mostly Christians who have twisted and interpreted the Bible to say what they want it to say. The other day I read an article by a "Christian" theologian who explained that the Bible only condemned homosexuality back then, but nowadays it's okay for some reason or another. He gave some examples, and I'm sure many "Christian" people bought into it, because they don't want to say homosexuality is bad and be persecuted. "Christians" are just trying to have as much fun as the world, and they don't like it when the world judges them so they change their standards so they don't get judged. So we all can all get along. Unity, oneness, acceptance, and tolerance are all being pushed by many churches. This is a big culprit: Inside the National Council of Churches. The national council of churches of Christ. It doesn't sound that bad, but they are. They're all for environmentalism, disarmament, gun control, acceptance, tolerance, etc. So basically Christians are afraid to stand up for what's right because of peer pressure from big people like the NCCC. I think it also has to do with the all the babied Christians living perfect lives. We need stronger Christians like the Christians from China, and the Middle East who are being persecuted. Yeah... that's what I think.

 

[AnandaHya]

wow david is the OP still on this threads? the last post was Feb 2010....

want to start yourself your own thread about what it is to be a mature Christian? just a suggestion

 

[Steve4U]

You're right cob, but since I'm here, like back at the shed sharpening, fellowshipping and getting ready to go out again, I'd like to have a crack at this one. It's one of the few real issues.

1. the riches, cares, and pleasures of this world

2. gutless

3. not enough love inside

4. not really convinced, don't like the cross - just coasting through

Anyone like to add to the list? Gotta go,