Why Here in the BDF?
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2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:9 οὐ βραδύνει ὁ κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ἡμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι
2 pet 3:9 (Young's Literal) the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,
G2248 hemas hay-mas' ἡμᾶς
accusative case plural of G1473;
us.
2 Pet 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
2 Pet 3:11 τούτων οὺν πάντων λυομένων ποταποὺς δεῖ ὑπάρχειν ὑμᾶς ἐν ἁγίαις ἀναστροφαῖς καὶ εὐσεβείαις
G5209 humas hoo-mas' ὑμᾶς
accusative case of G5210;
you (as the objective of a verb or preposition).
Seeing as the literal and Greek ἡμᾶς means us as against ὑμᾶς you I don't think the case is proven that US means only those being written to in verse 9 or the US of the whole of humanity.
Maybe Angela can weigh in on the Greek used.
2 Pet 3:9 οὐ βραδύνει ὁ κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ἡμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι
2 pet 3:9 (Young's Literal) the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,
G2248 hemas hay-mas' ἡμᾶς
accusative case plural of G1473;
us.
2 Pet 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
2 Pet 3:11 τούτων οὺν πάντων λυομένων ποταποὺς δεῖ ὑπάρχειν ὑμᾶς ἐν ἁγίαις ἀναστροφαῖς καὶ εὐσεβείαις
G5209 humas hoo-mas' ὑμᾶς
accusative case of G5210;
you (as the objective of a verb or preposition).
Seeing as the literal and Greek ἡμᾶς means us as against ὑμᾶς you I don't think the case is proven that US means only those being written to in verse 9 or the US of the whole of humanity.
Maybe Angela can weigh in on the Greek used.
I have had this discussion with Arminians and that is the position they held. As a Calvinist I disagree with them. There might be some sections of Arminians that differ. Not all Calvinist adhere to all teaching with some being 4 point Calvinists. Same holds true with Arminians. There are plenty of distinctives among both sets of denominations and even from church to church.
Part of the difference is the view of whether or not God has to touch a person's heart for them to believe. This goes to Romans 7 verse 7.
[FONT="]5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
Calvinists state God must intervene while Arminians believe man can come to the correct decision. [/FONT]
[FONT="]5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
Calvinists state God must intervene while Arminians believe man can come to the correct decision. [/FONT]
Just got back from German class, doing noun cases, so either this is right up my alley, or I am completely burned out!
In any case, I went and read the whole chapter, before I even looked at this question.
First, it does not read ἡμᾶς in the better and newer non-TR texts. It reads "[FONT="]ὑμᾶς[/FONT]" which it should, because he is talking about you, and it is a grammatical error, to suddenly change tenses back and forth, in the same paragraph. This comes down to the issues with the 7 corrupted Greek texts the KJV used, and this is often found. Maybe some scribe wanted to be included, and made it we? (Us in the accusative.)
[FONT="]ὑμᾶς[/FONT] (used in both versus 9 and 11) is 2nd person plural, which means it is always translated as "you," plural in English. "Us" as you want it to be is, 1st person plural, it is connected to the subject "we" NOT "you." Regardless of the mistranslation of the KJV, which translates it "us-ward" which is just too obscure for me to care about.
Further, the preposition [FONT="]εἰς [/FONT]is always found with the accusative. It has a broad range of meaning, unfortunately! Because the basic meaning is "into, in, among." But, I looked at a lot of translations, and basically they tend to "to" or 'toward." Normally, the word "to" is used with the dative, but in this case, "in you," makes no sense. But, it is used with the accusative.
In reading the chapter, there is no way, Peter suddenly deviates from the Beloved (verses 1 and 8, 14) (pl nominative) ([FONT="]ἀγαπητοί[/FONT] in Greek) whom he is addressing. Especially when only one verse before, he is addressing the "Beloved" there is no way, he suddenly includes himself, switching tenses to 1st person plural, as opposed to 2nd person plural. This is not good grammar in any language.
So, in fact, to summarize and answer your question, Peter is definitely and certainly addressing the Beloved, NOT the whole world. God is waiting for all the ones he has chosen, to come to Christ. Not the whole world. Nothing else makes sense here! Nor do I think you can pull verse 9 out of context of the chapter, and make it about salvation, when the rest of the chapter has nothing to do with unsaved people, but is addressing saved believers and the subject is eschatology, not soteriology at all!
The question this chapter is answering is "Where is the promised return?" And then he details what has happened and will happen. Eschatology!
A final interesting perspective concerns that if we actually look at the verse, which is addressing Christians, how can we make it clearer? (Adding to the Bible, I agree, but not as a side margin which later gets incorporated into the text, as it so often does in the later Byzantine manuscripts) but, just something to clarify it for us. Just a thought, and certainly, not to be incorporated into the verse, which is why I bolded that part. Within the sentence structure, it does make sense.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone "OF YOU" to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
Hmm! Interesting how many times I have heard that verse pulled out of context. Thanks for making me take a closer look at it.
Thanks Angela - you're right that was from the TR - this is from the Nestle:
[FONT="]Nestle[/FONT][SUP](i)[/SUP][FONT="] [/FONT][SUP]9[/SUP][FONT="] οὐ βραδύνει Κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς [/FONT][FONT="]ὑμᾶς[/FONT][FONT="], μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.
The KJV crowd aren't gonna like this....
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Nestle[/FONT][SUP](i)[/SUP][FONT="] [/FONT][SUP]9[/SUP][FONT="] οὐ βραδύνει Κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς [/FONT][FONT="]ὑμᾶς[/FONT][FONT="], μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.
The KJV crowd aren't gonna like this....
[/FONT]
You know this also bears out with other texts as well......for example....The Parousia of Jesus, that is to say our gathering together unto him as found in 2nd Thessalonians.....
Paul lists two things that must occur first....the man of sin being revealed and the apo-hystamie of or from the truth....
I have for some time stated it this way.....
a. Humanity must be conditioned to receive the two beasts and their false wonderworking power.
b. There is a last man or woman to be saved
c. God will send strong delusion that ALL who will not receive the love of the truth they might be judged....
so....it stands to reason
a. There is a finite number of men or women who will be saved on the planet at the time of the end
b. There is a finite number of lost who will not receive the love of the truth on the planet at the time of the end
c. When a is complete and b has been fully conditioned to receive the man of sin in place of God the end will come
Paul lists two things that must occur first....the man of sin being revealed and the apo-hystamie of or from the truth....
I have for some time stated it this way.....
a. Humanity must be conditioned to receive the two beasts and their false wonderworking power.
b. There is a last man or woman to be saved
c. God will send strong delusion that ALL who will not receive the love of the truth they might be judged....
so....it stands to reason
a. There is a finite number of men or women who will be saved on the planet at the time of the end
b. There is a finite number of lost who will not receive the love of the truth on the planet at the time of the end
c. When a is complete and b has been fully conditioned to receive the man of sin in place of God the end will come
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Looking at the evolution of the US from being an almost 100% Christian to the present well over half being atheist it seems the groundwork is being done. More and more rant against Christians. Christianity is under a slow methodical attack today. The protections under the constitution is being, eroded by judges. It just keeps getting worse.
I am not saying you are wrong about the US. And Canada probably more so! In fact, they are talking protections away from our constitution which specifically protect clergy in Canada, saying they are not "inclusive" enough right now.
But, the whole world, really needs to reach this point. North America has no favoured status in the Bible. Nor any of the 1st world countries. Persecution against Christians is rampant in many countries, I know!
But, still, it would be interesting to figure where the world stands with regards to how many are Christians. Plus, the other issue is back in the 1800's, 1900's or 1950's for that matter, how many were really Christians and how many just went along because it was the status quo? Like today, Christianity is not the status quo, but humanism and atheism are. So most people go with that flow, and that means supporting all kinds of ungodly things, which are clearly. Defined as sin in the Bible.
Well, I guess God knows, and that's the important thing!
But, the whole world, really needs to reach this point. North America has no favoured status in the Bible. Nor any of the 1st world countries. Persecution against Christians is rampant in many countries, I know!
But, still, it would be interesting to figure where the world stands with regards to how many are Christians. Plus, the other issue is back in the 1800's, 1900's or 1950's for that matter, how many were really Christians and how many just went along because it was the status quo? Like today, Christianity is not the status quo, but humanism and atheism are. So most people go with that flow, and that means supporting all kinds of ungodly things, which are clearly. Defined as sin in the Bible.
Well, I guess God knows, and that's the important thing!
I do Believe your quotes below your post are off just a little...Take the Mat 5:18 verse "18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." KJV
One Jot (ἰῶτα iōta) and One Tittle (κεραία keraia) is like saying in English until the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted.
Also 'TILL' (future) all be fulfilled. (Jot and Tittle come from the Textus Receptus )
Your version????"Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected.""
I think your version is leaving out a part of the actual verse and adds in some things that are not there.....These verses are God's WORD.. Is not removing or adding to them Blasphemy?
You are ignoring the fact that currently many denominations do not present the gospel from the pulpit. This includes the 7 sisters making up the vast majority of churches. A book Crossed Fingers by Gary North chronicles the history of a big denomination becoming secular. The last Christian minister controlling any money was defrocked in 1932. Look the book up on Amazon to see which denomination it is. I attend a wing of one of those mainline churches. Each one has a seperate smaller denomination wing that is Christ centered. I met a man who first heard the gospel story at my church
He was astounded because he went to one of those churches most of his life. Never once was the gospel story presented.
The stastics ignore the fact that too many churches are church in name only. Look up the book and be shocked. I attend a church split off of that denomination. It is a fraction of the size of the parent denomination. They refuse to defrock ministers stating they don't believe in Jesus. The issue is most of those ministers don't believe.
He was astounded because he went to one of those churches most of his life. Never once was the gospel story presented.
The stastics ignore the fact that too many churches are church in name only. Look up the book and be shocked. I attend a church split off of that denomination. It is a fraction of the size of the parent denomination. They refuse to defrock ministers stating they don't believe in Jesus. The issue is most of those ministers don't believe.
The problem you are ignorant of is most other countries are farther along the path away from God. Attendance to churches is decreasing steadily. Too many churches ignore the gospel. The top down structure of the Catholic Church prevents this from happening as fast there.
Growing up in the 50s I saw most families I knew attend church regularly and at meals pray before eating. In school we pledged allegiance, read from the Bible, and prayed. Nobody thought anything about it. Then the attack on the church started.
Growing up in the 50s I saw most families I knew attend church regularly and at meals pray before eating. In school we pledged allegiance, read from the Bible, and prayed. Nobody thought anything about it. Then the attack on the church started.
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Yes Endo I agree that most church denominations have issues. I noticed it when I was first called to believe. It took around 5 years to find a congregation that lined up with scripture. I live in a big city (Phoenix ) . I still know that God has his Church. The very fact that still so many folks call themselves Christian tells me that some of them are called or are of the Elect .
While we do see distributing problems in the visible church . We should never stop in our hope and determination to to spread the Gospel everywhere. Even if we fined the field we must evangelize has pews .
Blessings
Bill
While we do see distributing problems in the visible church . We should never stop in our hope and determination to to spread the Gospel everywhere. Even if we fined the field we must evangelize has pews .
Blessings
Bill