Why I believe the Great Tribulation started in 70 A.D.

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Nov 23, 2013
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#21
Why do you think these [words] were written?

in Matthew account:

( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

in Mark account:

( let him that readeth understand, )
To understand what abomination made something desolate.
 

GaryA

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#22
Why do you think these [words] were written?

in Matthew account:

( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

in Mark account:

( let him that readeth understand, )
They were written because the passage is actually making an indirect reference to the abomination of desolation rather than a direct one.

In essence, it is saying:

"When you see [what happened at the AoD] about to happen again, ..."

When was the AoD?

167 B.C.

We know this from comparing Daniel 11 to historical records.

What happened at the AoD?

First, Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

Then, it was desolated/destroyed.

The Matthew and Mark passages are not talking about the AoD itself (as an event, it was already history); rather, it was making reference to it in a way that would indicate/illustrate that what happened [in the time frame of the AoD] was going to happen a second time and would be recognized by the Jews.
 

GaryA

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#23
It is sad that most Christians in the modern day are taught that these passages (in the Matthew and Mark accounts) are referring to a future event when it has already occurred. Worse yet, they are taught that the Luke account is somehow disassociated from the other two - as if, Luke witnessed a different discourse than the other two.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#24
They were written because the passage is actually making an indirect reference to the abomination of desolation rather than a direct one.

In essence, it is saying:

"When you see [what happened at the AoD] about to happen again, ..."

When was the AoD?

167 B.C.

We know this from comparing Daniel 11 to historical records.

What happened at the AoD?

First, Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

Then, it was desolated/destroyed.

The Matthew and Mark passages are not talking about the AoD itself (as an event, it was already history); rather, it was making reference to it in a way that would indicate/illustrate that what happened [in the time frame of the AoD] was going to happen a second time and would be recognized by the Jews.
What exactly are we comparing in Daniel 11, which verses are you saying line up with the historical record?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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#27
It is sad that most Christians in the modern day are taught that these passages (in the Matthew and Mark accounts) are referring to a future event when it has already occurred. Worse yet, they are taught that the Luke account is somehow disassociated from the other two - as if, Luke witnessed a different discourse than the other two.
I wouldn't say "disassociated". ;)

And only about 12 or 13 verses in the Luke 21 portion of the Olivet Discourse, not the entirety of Lk21!! ;)

Namely, the "chronology" terminology therein establishing "what" happens "when" in relation to "what other things".

Meaning :D , only Lk21:12-24a [with pt b following on from there] covers the events surrounding 70ad.

All the rest of the Olivet Discourse, refers to the far-future events (which will be INITIATED by "the beginning of birth PANGS" [at the START of the future, specific, limited time period commonly called the "7 yrs"/"tribulation period"]).

But BOTH of THESE ^ [sections] refer (and apply) to "THOSE TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised. In this way, they ARE "associated" (because they refer to the SAME "proleptic 'YOU'" that the entire Olivet Discourse refers to... and that is not "the Church which is His body" ;) [nor covering the Subject of "our Rapture," per CONTEXT])
 

GaryA

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#29
Meaning :D , only Lk21:12-24a [with pt b following on from there] covers the events surrounding 70ad.

All the rest of the Olivet Discourse, refers to the far-future events ...
And, I am telling you - in the nicest way I can while still being direct - you are wrong. You were taught error.

"Just sayin'..."
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#30
The great tribulation is the greatest persecution against the truth in the history of the Church, Christianity, and not the Jews.

Which the beast goes against all people who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus.

Now how many Jews actually were in the truth of God's commandments, and accepting Jesus for it to be such a great persecution against the truth.

Especially since the Bible says that Jesus came unto His own but His own did not receive Him.

And God gave Israel 70 years to turn to Jesus and acknowledge the truth in which they did not so God allowed the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem.

And many Jews were going against the Christians.

Now how many Jews actually were in the truth of God's commandments, and accepting Jesus for it to be such a great persecution against the truth.

I think the Roman Catholic Church persecuted way more people who claimed Christ but did not go along with them than what Rome did to the Jews.

If Israel as a nation did not turn to Jesus, and the majority did not, how is it the greatest persecution against the truth, Christianity, in the history of mankind.

And Christianity was not that old for there to be a great number of people to persecute that would be the greatest persecution.

It is the greatest persecution in the history of the Church because it is on a world wide scale.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

70 weeks, 490 years, are determined upon the nation of Israel, and Jerusalem, to make an end of sins, bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophesy, and anoint the most Holy who is Jesus.

Israel as a nation has 70 weeks to seal up the vision and prophesy but how did they do that in the first century if they rejected Christ, and to bring in everlasting righteousness but how did they do that if they rejected Christ, and make an end of sin, but how did they do that if they rejected Christ.

For the Roman Empire could of never overthrown Jerusalem, the Jews, and scatter them in to the nations if they were obedient to God and accepted the truth as promised by God that no enemy could prosper against them if they are in the truth.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So how did Israel who rejected Christ and the Roman Empire went against them fulfill the requirements that God gave them for that they had to accomplish at the end of the 70 years.

For they did not finish the transgression, they did not make an end of sins, they did not bring in everlasting righteousness, they did not seal up the vision and prophesy, they did not do those things.

And they did not anoint the most Holy who is Jesus for that is the only way they can make an end of sins, and bring in everlasting righteousness.

The Bible says Israel has 70 weeks to get in the truth, which the time started before Jesus came in flesh for Israel was not in the truth before Jesus came for if they were in the truth the Roman Empire would of not had control of them, and ruling over them.

69 weeks has passed with 1 more week to go.

The disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time, and He said the Father will do it in His time, but do not worry about and go preach the Gospel.

God said He is going to bring the whole house of Jacob, all 12 tribes back to Israel and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they shall know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will never hide His face from them again, which they will always be in the truth from that time forward and never stray again.

Which this cannot be a past prophesy for Israel as a nation is not in the truth.

God's plan is to restore the kingdom on earth to the Jews, and He has to one day end this sin business on earth.

The last week is the time that God causes all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and when they follow the New Age Christ, man of sin, God will end this sin business on earth.

And brings Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Also Revelation 12 says that the nation of Israel is protected from physical attack for the 7 years period for God is working with them to restore the kingdom to them, and it cannot be thwarted.

But that is not compatible with the first century for they were attacked, but in Revelation 12 God does not allow them to physically attack Israel.

Also God said He is going to gather all nations together against Jerusalem and fight against them like He did in the day of battle, and save Israel when the world attacks them after the 7 years period for they are in the truth.

Some people say this is the first century and the then known world, but it was only the Roman Empire against her so how is that all the nations, and Egypt was known and were they there, and Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, Assyria were known and were they there, but they were not.

It was only the Roman Empire.

Also the Bible says that God is going to make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people, and anybody that burdens themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, although the whole earth is against her, the battle of Armageddon.

Also God speaks of the Palestinians in Joel 3 and tells them why are they messing with His people, and He will put it back on their own head.

And said gather the world together and let's go to war.

For multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

For when the nations come together and say Peace and safety and try to establish peace on earth will they get with God, or will they go along with the world towards the beast kingdom, and will they side with the Jews, or the Palestinians.

Also God warns us of the new age movement that will happen at the latter times which is now, not back in the first century, and their false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and people can still evolve to be greater and spiritual, and the time will come that the world will not endure truth of the Bible but want to hear it according to their own lusts, power through nature to evolve, the God of forces.

And the new age movement will pave the way to the man of sin, and the beast kingdom.

Continued,
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#31
Continued,

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God called Israel and He will never forsake them, and will bring them to the truth as He has done in the past.

Israel is blinded in part, for they acknowledge the Old Testament for the majority, but not the New Testament, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, when salvation is no longer available to them, and so all Israel shall be saved, which Jesus shall save them from the world attacking them, and restoring the kingdom on earth to them.

Which God said He will make a full end of all Gentile nations, their ruling governments, but not make a full end of Israel although she will not be wholly unpunished.

The New Age Christ, man of sin, will establish peace in the Middle East, and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel for the Gentile nations will cause it to happen, and the New Age Christ wants them all back on their land, but God means it for good towards the Jews.

The Jews will rebuild their temple, and go back to animal sacrifices for they are still blinded in part, and the Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians.

The Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety as they try to establish peace on earth, which Paul said the saints will not be deceived by it for they know it is not the operation of God on earth, and they follow the God of Israel.

The 7 years period will begin which the saints are on earth at that time, and Paul said the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, which the unified religious system is about evolution, the new age movement, and all religions interpreted that way, and the time the world will only want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement, and it is a hate crime to preach anything contrary to the unified religious system.

And the man of sin steps in to the Jews temple, and claims to be God and their Messiah, then the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

But the Bible says that the beast makes war against the saints, and prevails against them, and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things shall be finished.

During the first three and one half years repentance and salvation is still available to the world, and at the end of that time the world does not turn to God so He gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

Which the 6 trumpets are warnings to the world to get right with God, but after the 6th trumpet they do not so God allows the New Age Christ to deceive all people who do not love God.

Which an example is WW1, did not turn to God, but set up League of Nations trying to establish peace by their own power, and WW2, did not turn to God, but set up United Nations, and that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet, Islam against the world, for while the Arab governments will go along with the nations the people in those Arab nations, and worldwide will say it is an insult to Allah and rebel against the world.

That war will be so terrible that one third of the world perishes mainly in the Arab nations, and they do not turn to God but turn to the New Age Christ as the solution to have peace on earth.

Which at the end of the three and one half years it is the falling away first, and the transgressors have come to the full.

Then a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up, and his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power, for he gets his power from Satan, and by peace shall destroy many, and shall destroy the mighty and holy people, the great tribulation.

At the end of the first three and one half years when the world follows the beast, and takes his mark, then repentance and salvation is no longer available to them, and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in.

Which the mark of the beast is a microchip linked to satellite with all information about them on the chip, including finances, and they will know of everyone's location on earth, and if a crime happens they will know who was in the area, and how close they were to the crime scene, and can find lost people.

Then the last half of the 7 years period God will send Israel 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, and the Jews that know the truth will help the other Jews to understand.

And the great tribulation will happen which the beast will persecute all Christians world wide, but Israel is protected from physical attack during that time, and the 2 witnesses go against any person with plagues that would try to hinder them from preaching to the Jews.

At the end of the last three and one half years the saints that remain are gathered unto Christ, and Israel as a nation is in the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, and the 70th week is fulfilled.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The 70th week is fulfilled for they accomplished these things and are in the truth and anointed the most holy who is Jesus.

Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord, and at the end of the three and one half years they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord, and Jesus will come back with all the saints and they shall see Jesus.

The great tribulation did not happen in the first century, but I know many people still will not believe it for denominations usually win out in the debate wars.

The first attack on Jerusalem by the Roman Empire because they rejected Jesus so they did not have God's protection, and He allowed the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem and scatter the Jews, and the Christians they did persecute in that small area could not have been the greatest persecution in the history of the Church for Jesus said it is the greatest persecution of the truth such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The second attack on Jerusalem by the world because they accepted Jesus so they have God on their side and He does not allow them to prosper against the Jews and saved them.

Why would God fight for the Jews in the first century when He was punishing them for rejecting Christ, and if God was fighting for them then how did the Roman Empire prosper against them.

So God gathering all nations together against Jerusalem and fighting against those nations is a future event.

And why would God fight for the Christians at that time, but then allow the Christians after that to be persecuted for Paul said the saints are killed all the day long as sheep being led to the slaughter, and blessed is he that is persecuted for righteousness sake for great is their reward in heaven.
 

GaryA

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#32
In all 3 accounts, the phrase "let them in Judaea flee to the mountains" (slightly different in each account) is referring to the same 'event' in the same time frame.

All 3 accounts.

Same 'event'.

Same time frame.

NOT the same instruction for two different time frames - one past and one future.
 

GaryA

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#33
In all 3 accounts, the phrase "let them in Judaea flee to the mountains" (slightly different in each account) is referring to the same 'event' in the same time frame.

All 3 accounts.

Same 'event'.

Same time frame.

NOT the same instruction for two different time frames - one past and one future.
The same thing applies to:

"woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!"

The three accounts, collectively, are describing one 'event' - not two exact-or-similar ones in two separate time frames.
 

GaryA

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#34
TDW,

The current focus of this thread is centered specifically on the verses listed in post #16.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#35
And, I am telling you - in the nicest way I can while still being direct - you are wrong. You were taught error.

"Just sayin'..."
Except, it was my own study that revealed that particular info to me.

It just so happened that I later discovered others who also see it the same way.

And, whoops! I didn't mean to re-direct your thread, I merely wanted to comment on what you'd said in that part I'd quoted of yours.


If one sees (as I do) Matthew 24:4-8 equaling Mark 13:5-8 equaling Luke 21:8-11 [and then consider what verse 12 is then saying about that], then I do not see how one could come to the conclusion that the "see-then-flee" in the 70ad events (which must come "BEFORE" the Lk21:8-11 things) can possibly be the "see-then-flee" in Matt24 that comes AFTER the Matt24:4-8 things (which are identical to the Lk21:8-11 things).

That is simply grasping the "chronology" (besides their describing entirely distinct things they are to "see" ;) )


...and now I will exit your thread, and you can carry on. :) My apologies for addressing a post not intended to be the focus of your thread.


GaryA said:
It is sad that most Christians in the modern day are taught that these passages (in the Matthew and Mark accounts) are referring to a future event when it has already occurred. Worse yet, they are taught that the Luke account is somehow disassociated from the other two - as if, Luke witnessed a different discourse than the other two.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#36
… just given distinct things to RECORD (in 12-13 verses only). ;) [sry, ran out of EDIT time]
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#37
The initial post was actually an accident; I am not even sure how it happened.
Just let one of the mods know that this OP was a total mistake, and this thread should be removed altogether. Otherwise there could be great tribulation for you.
 

GaryA

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#38
My apologies for addressing a post not intended to be the focus of your thread.
The intent of the comment in post #34 was to simply indicate that my discussion posts were to be taken in the context of the three passages listed in post #16. (i.e. - not the whole chapter).
 
Apr 3, 2019
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#39
The first thing I need to point you to is that these verses in the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse are talking about the same thing:

Matthew 24:15-22
Mark 13:14-20
Luke 21:20-24a

That is to say - they are 3 accounts of the same discourse from 3 different men. Luke did not witness Jesus say anything different than what the other two heard. Luke is talking about the very-same-exact-thing that Matthew and Mark are.

If you do not understand this and believe it -- then, you need to stare at it - and study it - until you do.
The the gospels specifically state the GT would occur at the surrounding of Jerusalem prior to its destruction not after it, this is where you are wrong.

(Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.)

The GT ended in 70 AD.

Jesus stated that the days of vengeance of that time would be the conclusion of ALL prophecy:

(Luke 21:22 KJV) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.)

And this complies with Daniel 70 weeks to seal up vision and prophecy:

(Dan 9:24 KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.)

The reason John's gospel does not include mention of Jerusalem/tribulation/temple destruction is because he speaks of it an expanded form in his revelation by direct visions from Christ.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#40
The 70 AD event was a fulfillment of prophecy...the prophecy Jesus spoke about the temple being destroyed and not one stone upon another will be left. Jesus went on to say that there is to come a great tribulation in which the world has never seen in comparison.

Israel is to be scattered which was done in 70AD now the regathering out of the nation's prophecy began in 1945 ... furthermore Israel is declared a nation in one hour and it was so in the early 1960s. No other people's in history have ever regrouped after such a time span showing the word of the Lord to be true.

The 70AD event is not the beginning of the great
tribulation which is found in Revelation. It is a worldwide event that takes place.
The 70AD Event is believed to be punishment for not knowing the time of their visitation of Messiah which is found to the exact day in the book of Daniel when Jesus entered into Jerusalem for the last time riding the foal of a ass. His triumphal entry.