Why Some Arminians and Calvinists Need to Calm Down

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#41
Oh this is so typical of a calvinist..

I said in my post..



And the calvinist response to this,,



Ha ha ha ha taking my words that where clearly related to human exhaustion from facing hatred and toxicity and then making out that the statement was me admitting i am mistaken about calvinism.. So a calvinist tries to score points by twisting what others say to make out the other person is admiring being mistaken about their position on calvinism..

You sound like a politician or a lawyer Johann.. One gifted in twisting what others say to ones own advantage...

I was very correct about avoiding calvinists as best as i can.. I will be avoiding you from this moment on Johann..
No problem-the one here misconstruing my words is you-no offense-You can put me on ignore-a handy feature.
J.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#42
These doctrines are based on biblical passages and are not considered rewritings of Scripture.
No they are not. Misuse and misapplication of Bible passages, including changing the meaning of Bible words, is in fact re-writing Scripture.

Take the word "world" in John chapter 3 (and other passages). What do Calvinists do with this word which speaks of all humanity or the human race? They change it to mean "the elect" or "both Jews and Gentiles" but never "all humanity".

John Gill was a Calvinist and he refused to accept the correct meaning of "world". He said "For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; [AND HERE IS THE RE-INTERPRETATION] for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man."

However, even John Calvin -- IN HIS COMMENTARY --could not change the biblical meaning. Here is what he said: 16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish...for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.

But then Calvin reverted to his Reformed Theology and undermined what he had already said: Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith.

But this is dishonest since Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Greek lexicon give us the correct biblical meaning.
Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.



Thayer's Greek Lexicon
[there are also other meanings in other contexts but 1 John 2:2 is included below. Yet John 3:16,17 are omitted]
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος
κόσμος, κόσμου, ὁ;
5. the inhabitants of the world:
θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536));
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#43
Ha ha ha ha taking my words that where clearly related to human exhaustion from facing hatred and toxicity and then making out that the statement was me admitting i am mistaken about calvinism
Not what I meant-how certain are YOU that you are correct in exegetical studies? And not only that-but a Christlike style of life now-at this present moment?
Advice-


"not to wrangle about words" There was a factious element present (cf. 2 Tim. 2:16; 1 Tim. 1:3-4; 4:7; 6:4,5,20; Titus 3:9).

Timothy is warned not to enter into a theological dialogue with these false teachers for several reasons.

it was useless because their minds had been seared and blinded (cf. 2 Tim. 2:14; 1 Tim. 4:2; 6:5; Titus 3:11)
it causes other believers who overhear the dialogue to falter (cf. 2 Tim. 2:14,18; 1 Tim. 6:20-21)
it leads to further ungodliness (cf. 2 Tim. 2:16,19; 1 Tim. 6:3)
it will spread like gangrene (cf. 2 Tim. 2:17)

"leads to the ruin of hearers" "Ruin" is the Greek term from which we get the English word "catastrophe." It literally meant "to overthrow" (cf. 2 Pet. 2:6) or "to overturn" (cf. Matt. 21:12).

2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself" This is an AORIST ACTIVE IMPERATIVE with an AORIST ACTIVE INFINITIVE. This is a call for a decisive act of the will (cf. Rom. 6:13; Eph. 4:3).

"approved"
This is a metallurgical term which became an idiom for "a test with a view toward approval," which was a way of confirming something as genuine (cf. 1 Cor. 11:19; 2 Cor. 10:18).


"to God"
God is the one who must approve our teaching, preaching, and our lifestyle.

"as a workman who does not need to be ashamed" Spiritless Bible teaching and un-Christlike daily living will cause believers shame when they stand before their Lord (cf. 2 Cor. 5:10). Paul was concerned about being ashamed before the Lord, but not before humans (cf. 2 Tim. 1:8,12,16).

"accurately handling" This is a PRESENT ACTIVE PARTICIPLE meaning "to cut straight." It is found only here in the NT. This was often used of constructing a road, plowing a furrow, or a stone mason building a structure (cf. Prov. 3:6; 11:5 in the Septuagint).

Learn to discern.
J.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#44
As much as I oppose the doctrinal teaching of Calvinism, it still teaches that salvation is by grace through faith.
That is not even the issue. And how can it be "the same way" if Calvinists claim that saving faith is a gift given by God only to "the elect" while the Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel)" ?.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#45
John Gill was a Calvinist and he refused to accept the correct meaning of "world". He said "For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; [AND HERE IS THE RE-INTERPRETATION] for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man."
One question-what makes you so sure your interpretation of Scripture is biblically and exegetically sound?
What about the doctrine of election-replete in Scriptures?
How many times do Arminians-you and me-re-interpret Scripture to "fit" our narrative? How do you cross reference Scripture?



Or would you prefer this?

The world - All mankind. It does not mean any particular part of the world, but man as man - the race that had rebelled and that deserved to die. See Joh_6:33; Joh_17:21. His love for the world, or for all mankind, in giving his Son, was shown by these circumstances:
1. All the world was in ruin, and exposed to the wrath of God.
2. All people were in a hopeless condition.
3. God gave his Son. Man had no claim on him; it was a gift - an undeserved gift.
4. He gave him up to extreme sufferings, even the bitter pains of death on the cross.
5. It was for all the world. He tasted “death for every man,” Heb_2:9. He “died for all,” 2Co_5:15. “He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world,” 1Jo_2:2.
That he gave - It was a free and unmerited gift. Man had no claim: and when there was no eye to pity or arm to save, it pleased God to give his Son into the hands of men to die in their stead, Gal_1:4; Rom_8:32; Luk_22:19. It was the mere movement of love; the expression of eternal compassion, and of a desire, that sinners should not perish forever.
Barnes

Or-

world. Gr. kosmos, +Mat_4:8, ?**FS121J8, Metonymy of the Subject F/S 576, The world is put for its inhabitants, affirmed by some to denote without distinction, but not without exception. For other instances of this figure see Joh_7:4, Act_17:31, *2Co_5:19, ?**1Jn_2:2; 1Jn_5:19, Rev_12:9, See related notes and figures listed at Gen_24:10 note.

There is no viable reason within this text and its context to suppose that world is used in a special or limited sense. Some grammarians class the usage of world here as a Monadic Construction (see, for example, James A. Brooks and Carlton L. Winbery, Syntax of New Testament Greek, pp. 73, 74, who also cite 1Co_16:10 and Joh_3:31 as further examples of this usage), because the world is an indivisible whole, the only such thing there is. "So monadic construction cannot be subjected to a division of the race as elect and non-elect. It is a single, indivisible unit.

Thus there can be no predestination of the world as to destiny" (M. L. Lavender on Joh_3:16 in his LNT, fn a). +*Joh_1:9; +*+Joh_1:29; Joh_4:42, **1Jn_2:2; **1Jn_4:14.

Does this make you feel better?

Οὕτως Houtōs|G3779|Adv|Thus γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|for ἠγάπησεν ēgapēsen|G25|V-AIA-3S|loved ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|- Θεὸς Theos|G2316|N-NMS|God τὸν ton|G3588|Art-AMS|the κόσμον, kosmon|G2889|N-AMS|world, ὥστε hōste|G5620|Conj|that τὸν ton|G3588|Art-AMS|the Υἱὸν Huion|G5207|N-AMS|Son, τὸν ton|G3588|Art-AMS|the μονογενῆ monogenē|G3439|Adj-AMS|only begotten, ἔδωκεν, edōken|G1325|V-AIA-3S|He gave, ἵνα hina|G2443|Conj|so that πᾶς pas|G3956|Adj-NMS|everyone ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|- πιστεύων pisteuōn|G4100|V-PPA-NMS|believing εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|in αὐτὸν auton|G846|PPro-AM3S|Him μὴ mē|G3361|Adv|not ἀπόληται apolētai|G622|V-ASM-3S|should perish, ἀλλ’ all’|G235|Conj|but ἔχῃ echē|G2192|V-PSA-3S|should have ζωὴν zōēn|G2222|N-AFS|life αἰώνιον. aiōnion|G166|Adj-AFS|eternal.

Another question-if I may-How do you study? Word studies-or Grammar and Syntax-Morphologies?
There's a massive apostasy currently-globally and last time I've checked is that the wrath of God is presently abiding upon ALL who don't believe in the Son


Joh 3:31 He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony.
Joh 3:33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Shalom
J.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#46
That is not even the issue. And how can it be "the same way" if Calvinists claim that saving faith is a gift given by God only to "the elect" while the Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel)" ?.
My guess is that the 5 foolish virgins did not hear the gospel-but the 5 wise did? Sounds kind of ridiculous, doesn't it?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
Heb 11:15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son,
Heb 11:18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Heb 11:19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau.
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff.
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
Heb 11:26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.
Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—
Heb 11:33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
Heb 11:35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.
Heb 11:36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
Heb 11:38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

J.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#47
That is not even the issue. And how can it be "the same way" if Calvinists claim that saving faith is a gift given by God only to "the elect" while the Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel)" ?.
Forgetting context-


Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”
Rom 10:19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
Rom 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
Rom 10:21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

J.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#48
Forgetting context-
No. The context is indeed the Gospel, and how it generates saving faith. So now you are inventing your own interpretation, just like the Calvinists.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#49
Forgetting context-


Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”
Rom 10:19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
Rom 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
Rom 10:21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

J.
THE GOSPEL

The gospel of Mark is probably the first written Gospel; if so, this is the first use of the term euangelion (cf. Mark 1:14,15; 8:35; 10:29; 13:10; 14:9) by a Gospel writer (Paul's use in Gal. 2:2 and 1 Thess. 2:9 would be chronologically earlier). It is interesting to note that John never uses the noun, nor do the books of Hebrews or James. It is literally "the good news" or "the good message." This obviously reflects Isa. 61:1 and possibly 40:9 and 52:7 (see LXX). Its grammatical form can be understood as

1. the message given by Jesus

2. the message about Jesus

The Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, published by IVP, says "The genitive (‘of') is probably both subjective and objective: Jesus proclaims the gospel and it proclaims his story" (p. 285).

The Jerome Biblical Commentary says "Mark's use of the word 'gospel' is akin to that in Paul, where it can mean either the act of proclaiming or the content of what is proclaimed."

The term "gospel" involves several aspects.

1. the initial bad news of mankind's sin and rebellion

2. God's gracious provisions to deal with human sin (i.e., the death of Christ)

3. the open invitation for any or all to accept God's provision by repentance and faith

For a good list of the theological items preached by the early Apostles-,

This good news about Jesus involves three aspects.

1. It is a person to welcome (i.e., Jesus).

2. It is truths about that person to believe (i.e., the NT).

3. It is a life which emulates that person (i.e., a Christlike life).


If any one of these three aspects is depreciated the gospel is damaged!

Clear, concise and biblical.
J.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#50
My guess is that the 5 foolish virgins did not hear the gospel-but the 5 wise did? Sounds kind of ridiculous, doesn't it?
Neither this nor Hebrews 11 throws any light on the subject of God SELECTIVELY choosing some for salvation and others for damnation. The dishonesty of the Calvinists should be evident to all.

If God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4), then that is exactly what God means. If God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30) then that is exactly what God means.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#51
No. The context is indeed the Gospel, and how it generates saving faith. So now you are inventing your own interpretation, just like the Calvinists.
Jesus Teaches that Regeneration Precedes Faith
by John Hendryx
----------------------------

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (John 6:37)

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe
...And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:63, 65)

-----------------------

According to Scripture, all people are born dead in sin (Eph 2:1). This simply means that, as a result of the Fall, people are born without the Holy Spirit and therefore, (left to themselves and being spiritually dead) are hostile to Christ (Rom. 8:7) and unable to understand to spiritual things (1 Cor 1:21). It does not mean they can do (or think) nothing in their fallen state, but it means they can do nothing spiritual or redemptive ... that they will always think God's word is foolish (1 Cor 2:14) until the Holy Spirit, who comes from the outside, works grace in their hearts (Ezek 11:19-20). The natural man may be alive to carnal things, but he is dead to spiritual things. So to the question: can any person come to faith in Christ apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, both the Arminian and the Calvinist would definitively answer "no".

The Arminian asserts that this work of the Holy Spirit (this "prevenient grace" that temporarily gives the power of free choice) is ultimately resistible by the fallen sinner. Arminian's affirm that man, apart from grace, hates the light and will not come into the light. And because of this, the Spirit grants them a kind of post-regenerate - pre-conversion state where he is, for a time, lifted out of his moral depravity and given the opportunity to receive or reject the free offer of Christ in the gospel.

To be a just God, most Arminians reason, God must give all people an equal opportunity to choose whether to believe or not.

And this opportunity is granted, they claim, through prevenient grace. As most Arminians will admit, however, this "semi-regenerate" state is logically, rather than exegetically deduced. On the other hand, the Calvinist is convinced that the Bible teaches that regenerative grace itself opens our blind eyes, unplugs our deaf ears and gives us a new heart (Ezek 36:26, John 6:63) making God's call effectual, infallibly bringing the sinner to faith in Jesus Christ.

Arminian synergists assert that prevenient grace resolves the problem of human boasting since God initiates with grace. But in reality this sleight of hand does not resolve the problem at all and only begs the question.

For if God gives this prevenient grace to everybody, we must ask: why do some respond positively to Christ and not others?

What makes them to differ? Jesus Christ or something else? The problem of boasting is not removed, for if God gives grace to everybody and only some believe, then the heart that believes still thinks that it made the wiser decision by improving on grace while others did not.

The person affirming prevenient grace still must ultimately attribute his repenting and believing to his own wisdom, prudence, sound judgment, or good sense. So in the Arminian belief system, they are not willing to confront the obvious question of why some believe and not others? The only answer I have ever heard to this question in all my years debating this was "because some believed". But, this avoids the question, because I did not ask them what they did, but why they did it? And the "why" seems to be a question that Jesus goes out of his way to answer. (John 8:46-47 & John 10:26)

There are many texts which affirm beyond doubt that regeneration is indeed monergistic ... that the implanting of the new heart is what gives rise to understanding, love of Christ and faith. One of the most important discussions in the Bible about this is where Jesus was speaking to some fellow Jews who did not believe in him (John 6:64) . He said to them:

“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” ( 6:37) ”

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44)

"… no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." ( 6:65)


The reason I bring these three verses to your attention is because, they are spoken in the same context (John 6) and in this long discussion with Jesus and the Jews about faith these three verses are essentially speaking of the same issue. In fact they share more than one thing in common. They all use the phrase "come to me" and they each make a universal declaration ("no one" or "all").

When read in context the phrase "come to me" is spoken in the same breath as the word "faith". It is a synonym. Likewise the phrase "draws him" is used in parallel with the phrase "gives me" or "granted him".
Our Lord declares that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44) and "All that the Father gives me [draws to Me] will come to me." (John 6:37). In other words, the passage simply states that no one will trust in or have faith in Jesus unless God grants it (John 6:65), and ALL to whom God grants (or gives/draws to Jesus) will believe. Not some of them, but all of them. This universal positive and universal negative means that we are forced to conclude that all that God draws to Jesus infallibly come to faith in him.

Faith, Jesus is saying, is not a product of our unregenerate human natures; It is, rather, the product of new life that only He can give us through the quickening work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit alone who, uniting us to Christ, gives life to our dead souls that we may believe. Jesus is affirming the same truth to Nicodemus in John 3, using the same type of language. In verse 6 Jesus tells him, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” And unless one is born of the Spirit he can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God. Jesus never gives Nicodemus an imperative (command) to be born again, but instead, tells him what must happen to him for eternal life to be a reality. Belief springs from a change of nature, for the old man considers the gospel foolish and thus cannot comprehend it (1 Cor 2:14).

This does away completely also with the Arminian argument where they point to John 10, where Jesus says "when I am lifted up I will draw all men to myself".

While we already demonstrated that "draw him" (v. 44) is parallel with "gives me" (v. 37) because it is spoken in the same context with multiple parallelisms so we concluded that ALL the Father gives (draws to) Christ come to him. But the Arminain must reach outside of this passage (out of context) to a completely different situation where Greeks approach Jesus.

There is no indication that Jesus is referring to the same issue. In fact, when read in context, Jesus is telling them that he is fulfilling the promise to Abraham that he would become a father of many nations. Not only Jews but gentiles will be included, so Jesus is establishing that He will draw (not all men without exception) but all men without distinction (Jews and Gentiles). He is announcing that his coming coincides with the expansion of God's kingdom to include Gentiles, in large measure.

Your answer?
J.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#52
Neither this nor Hebrews 11 throws any light on the subject of God SELECTIVELY choosing some for salvation and others for damnation. The dishonesty of the Calvinists should be evident to all.

If God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4), then that is exactly what God means. If God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30) then that is exactly what God means.
So you are a Universalist? Amazing-you really believe ALL will be saved?
J.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#53
Neither this nor Hebrews 11 throws any light on the subject of God SELECTIVELY choosing some for salvation and others for damnation. The dishonesty of the Calvinists should be evident to all.

If God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4), then that is exactly what God means. If God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30) then that is exactly what God means.
It is right there-and you missed it.
Astonishing!
What is even more astonishing is that you believe the WHOLE world will be saved!-How do you read Scriptures?
J.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,470
452
83
#55
As much as I oppose the doctrinal teaching of Calvinism, it still teaches that salvation is by grace through faith. Calvinists who believe in Jesus Christ are saved in the same way that Arminianists are saved.
Actually, calvinists assert that if we do the believing our believing is something we do to earn salvation. They assert that God first regenerates the eternally elect sinner unilaterally and God unilaterally gives a new type of faith to the newly-regenerated soul. They assert, if you listen carefully, that only the eternally elect are saved by a God-performed regeneration that precedes faith.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,249
1,043
113
#56
Oh i have interacted with calvinists.. For many hours.. Many posts.. I know the 5 pillars of calvinism to a T,U,L,I,P tee.. And i have been sharpened because of their opposition.. It was rarely a pleasant experience.. Mostly toxic.. To the point of it affecting me.. I am after all only a human being..
Timothy is warned not to enter into a theological dialogue with these false teachers for several reasons.
Keeping in mind that someone merely under the influence of false doctrine is not necessarily a "false teacher".

It is perfectly acceptable to have a theological discussion or dialog with Joe-Calvinist at the bowling alley or the forum or whatever in a reverent manner. What is not acceptable is to receive him as a teacher-of-the-church.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,822
2,267
113
#57
I was very correct about avoiding calvinists as best as i can.. I will be avoiding you from this moment on Johann..

Agree, they are looking for converts , they are unable to be objective.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#58
Actually, calvinists assert that if we do the believing our believing is something we do to earn salvation. They assert that God first regenerates the eternally elect sinner unilaterally and God unilaterally gives a new type of faith to the newly-regenerated soul. They assert, if you listen carefully, that only the eternally elect are saved by a God-performed regeneration that precedes faith.
Not being facetious with you-study election for yourself as it stands written in Scriptures-

Salvation is complete; it involves justification, sanctification, and glorification. By grace, through faith, God justifies believers in an instantaneous act. That is to say, Christ died for His people in order that the penalty for their sins might be paid and His righteousness might be counted to them. They are declared just before God when they believe. Once justified, Christ saves them from the power of their sins through the lifelong process of sanctification. In sanctification, Christians are made more and more like Jesus Christ. But a lifelong process never ends, and the final goal is never reached until death. At death, Christians are glorified; they are then made completely perfect for the first time.

Or this regeneration-the Aorist point for the believer can happen simultaneously-all inclusive-is it really that much of an error, since this is all God's doing-and none of the ego eimi-that regeneration MIGHT precede pisteou since the natural inclination of man is to NOT come to the Light that he might be saved?

I was a sinner, less perfect than God. By conviction of the Holy Spirit I learned that my condition would incur the eternal condemnation of God if I did not submit to His grace. I acknowledged myself a sinner and threw myself on His mercy and grace, recognizing that He had brought salvation to earth through His Son Jesus Christ. After God the Father put God the Son to death on the cross, He could proclaim grace and pardon to all who would submit to Him. I came to the cross, believed His promise about His Son, and God declared me righteous even while I was ungodly and gave me authority to become His child. I ceased to be a child of wrath and became a child of God, justified from all things. Simultaneously, I was declared to be an heir of God, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. I received eternal life, and shall never perish. I was accepted in the Beloved; my body became the temple of the Holy Spirit; I was born of the Spirit into the family of God, baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. I have an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fades not away, reserved in Heaven for me. Although I know myself to be a sinner, I am not concerned about the penalty for sin, since the Lord Jesus Christ bore the penalty and declared me righteous. The love of Christ becomes the constraining factor in my life, and I seek to glorify Him as Lord. I know Him as my Creator and so have peace of mind. I know Him as Savior and so have peace of conscience. In the measure that I enter into the second rest, I know Him as Lord and find the peace that passes all understanding.

Leave Calvin alone-he is dead-and still being "crucified by believers"

So what about Voddie and Johnny Mac? May God raise up more of these God fearing men.

Amen
J.
 

Johann

Active member
Apr 12, 2022
928
212
43
#59
Keeping in mind that someone merely under the influence of false doctrine is not necessarily a "false teacher".

It is perfectly acceptable to have a theological discussion or dialog with Joe-Calvinist at the bowling alley or the forum or whatever in a reverent manner. What is not acceptable is to receive him as a teacher-of-the-church.
I fully concur-so-who is the teacher-of-the-Ekklesia?
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,249
1,043
113
#60
Actually, calvinists assert that if we do the believing our believing is something we do to earn salvation.
Belief doesn't "earn" you anything; but it will get you a gift that you do not deserve and did not and cannot earn. Salvation isn't compensation. If you don't do the believing, no one is going to do it for you.