Why the Kingdom of God, Gospel of God, & Gospel of Christ? What's the difference?

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Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#61
There is no scripture that disagrees with scripture, for it all comes from the same God who is eternal and does not change. We are told the faith without works is dead. Romans 4:5 does not disagree with that, but it tells us works are counted as righteousness. It does not say not to work, it says that we are not saved by our works but by our faith.
Romans 4:5 does not say "works are counted as righteousness"
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,674
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#62
I am supposing the following is why you think the Church avoids the time of Tribulation. Let me know if not.

If the Tribulation is God's Wrath, and the Church won't go through it because they are promised to be spared from His Wrath, then why are the people who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" the ones being targeted and killed during the Trib, but those who took the Mark are untouched by His Wrath?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I anticipate you may respond that Satan is killing the Saints, not God. Then by default the Tribulation cannot be God's Wrath. He doesn't kill His own Children, that's been the sole domain of the devil. He certainly doesn't leave evildoers untouched by His Wrath; the armies of those who took the Mark are still there at His Second Coming ready to fight Him! This is when He delivers His Wrath, everything prior is Satan's work.

Look what atrocities Satan did to Job exercising his own power, that God allowed him to use, and look what God did to the wicked during Noah and Lot's time - destroyed every one of them. The earth will know when God's Wrath hits, and none of His Children will be on the receiving end when that happens, so the Tribulation cannot be the same as God's Wrath.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.​
There would also be people who will only be saved during the Tribulation, as you quoted from Revelation‬ 12:17, as well as other places like ‭20:4‬. They will have most likely have to die for their faith, if they want to be saved then.

I believe the Body of Christ will be raptured before that, but it is not a salvific issue, so there will definitely be many Christians like you, who believe otherwise.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,392
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#63
Romans 4:5 does not say "works are counted as righteousness"
Romans 4:5 NIV However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:5 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,674
1,221
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#64
Romans 4:5 NIV However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:5 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
worketh not

who does not work

You don't understand the meaning of those words?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,940
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#65
I am supposing the following is why you think the Church avoids the time of Tribulation. Let me know if not.

If the Tribulation is God's Wrath, and the Church won't go through it because they are promised to be spared from His Wrath, then why are the people who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" the ones being targeted and killed during the Trib, but those who took the Mark are untouched by His Wrath?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I anticipate you may respond that Satan is killing the Saints, not God. Then by default the Tribulation cannot be God's Wrath. He doesn't kill His own Children, that's been the sole domain of the devil. He certainly doesn't leave evildoers untouched by His Wrath; the armies of those who took the Mark are still there at His Second Coming ready to fight Him! This is when He delivers His Wrath, everything prior is Satan's work.

Look what atrocities Satan did to Job exercising his own power, that God allowed him to use, and look what God did to the wicked during Noah and Lot's time - destroyed every one of them. The earth will know when God's Wrath hits, and none of His Children will be on the receiving end when that happens, so the Tribulation cannot be the same as God's Wrath.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.​
Its the time of JACOBS trouble. Not the Church .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,940
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#66
I am supposing the following is why you think the Church avoids the time of Tribulation. Let me know if not.

If the Tribulation is God's Wrath, and the Church won't go through it because they are promised to be spared from His Wrath, then why are the people who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" the ones being targeted and killed during the Trib, but those who took the Mark are untouched by His Wrath?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I anticipate you may respond that Satan is killing the Saints, not God. Then by default the Tribulation cannot be God's Wrath. He doesn't kill His own Children, that's been the sole domain of the devil. He certainly doesn't leave evildoers untouched by His Wrath; the armies of those who took the Mark are still there at His Second Coming ready to fight Him! This is when He delivers His Wrath, everything prior is Satan's work.

Look what atrocities Satan did to Job exercising his own power, that God allowed him to use, and look what God did to the wicked during Noah and Lot's time - destroyed every one of them. The earth will know when God's Wrath hits, and none of His Children will be on the receiving end when that happens, so the Tribulation cannot be the same as God's Wrath.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.​
Its not Just the verses that say we're not appointed to wrath . There's many reasons. Of course those that believe the Church go through have a work a round. Namely that they are ' protected ' at that time. I think this underestimates the level of tribulation that will take place. I'm glad I won't be around .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,940
1,234
113
#67
There is no scripture that disagrees with scripture, for it all comes from the same God who is eternal and does not change. We are told the faith without works is dead. Romans 4:5 does not disagree with that, but it tells us works are counted as righteousness. It does not say not to work, it says that we are not saved by our works but by our faith.
Faith is not a work.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,940
1,234
113
#68
I am supposing the following is why you think the Church avoids the time of Tribulation. Let me know if not.

If the Tribulation is God's Wrath, and the Church won't go through it because they are promised to be spared from His Wrath, then why are the people who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" the ones being targeted and killed during the Trib, but those who took the Mark are untouched by His Wrath?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I anticipate you may respond that Satan is killing the Saints, not God. Then by default the Tribulation cannot be God's Wrath. He doesn't kill His own Children, that's been the sole domain of the devil. He certainly doesn't leave evildoers untouched by His Wrath; the armies of those who took the Mark are still there at His Second Coming ready to fight Him! This is when He delivers His Wrath, everything prior is Satan's work.

Look what atrocities Satan did to Job exercising his own power, that God allowed him to use, and look what God did to the wicked during Noah and Lot's time - destroyed every one of them. The earth will know when God's Wrath hits, and none of His Children will be on the receiving end when that happens, so the Tribulation cannot be the same as God's Wrath.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.​
So God will poor atrocities through satan on his bride ?Job is not the church . The tirb is about Israel .
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
909
306
63
#69
OP question: Why the Kingdom of God, Gospel of God, & Gospel of Christ? What's the difference?

Gospel = Good News of salvation & its always appropriated/seized thru FAITH.

For Abraham via FAITH in a sacrifice to come (Gen 2:14). For the Jew under the Kingdom message via FAITH in who Jesus was. And to the New Testament Body of Christ via FAITH in Jesus sin atoning/redemptive work. Found in Christ's death (sins required wage PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (God's receipt, sins payment received & accepted).

ONE Gospel, always accessed via a FAITH choice.

The gospel of the kingdom message was to the Nation of Israel only. Based on, the identity of & belief that, Jesus was the OT promised Messiah (Matt 16:13-16, Jn 11:25-27, Jn 3:18, Acts 2:21 & 38, 3:6 & 16, 4:7, 10, 12, 17, 18, 30, 5.28, 40, 41, 8:12 & 16, 9:14, 15, 21, 27, 10:43 & 48).

The gospel of the kingdoms focus was the identity of the promised coming Messiah & the to collective called out/set apart Nation of Israel only. The kingdom message required FAITH that Jesus was their long promised Messiah. They had a God given sacrificial system that covered/dealt with sin for 1yr.

BTW: There were NO gentiles on Mt Sinai when Moses gives the law. John the Baptist, baptizes NO gentiles in the wilderness. NO gentiles receive the Holy Spirit on the Temple Mt on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. There are NO gentiles members in/of the early church in Jerusalem.

Had the Nation embraced Jesus as their promised Messiah. His coming (upon His return) kingdom rule would have begun then.

Today's Church message ISN'T the gospel of the kingdom. Today's Church message is FAITH placed in Christ's death, burial & resurrection (1 Cor 15:1-4).

Pre Christ sin atoning sacrifice, gentiles had no covenant relationship with God, were lost without hope (Eph 2:12).
 

TheWaytoGo

Active member
Dec 13, 2020
103
26
28
#70
There would also be people who will only be saved during the Tribulation, as you quoted from Revelation‬ 12:17, as well as other places like ‭20:4‬. They will have most likely have to die for their faith, if they want to be saved then.

I believe the Body of Christ will be raptured before that, but it is not a salvific issue, so there will definitely be many Christians like you, who believe otherwise.

Not a question of salvation, but it can affect the eternal disposition of one's soul, according to Scripture.

If many will lose their faith in the end times apostacy, say for instance, by finding out the Pre-Trib Rapture is actually false, and the church will go through the Tribulation (and it has already started), then eternity without Christ is no small loss to suffer.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;​

Revelation makes it quite clear there will be two choices: the Mark, or enduring to the end for Christ, in most cases, death (Mat 24:22). So, the timing of His Coming is critical for the Saint to make preparations i.e. what do I do with my kids, or my parents, there will be a myriad of concerns that should be settled for peace of mind, and for navigating through those years).

The rallying call of the Pre-Trib belief is to be imminently ready, because we don't know when the thief is coming. We don't know when He will come for us individually (bodily death), but Paul states WE DO KNOW when He's coming for us collectively:

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


How can Jesus come before the Tribulation when *Satan won't be revealed until the middle of the 7 years (Mar 13:14)?
2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,​
2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and *the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,​
The Word says repeatedly, that the dead in Christ are resurrected only ONCE on the day He comes back for us. This resurrection of the dead is mandatory before the living Saints can be raptured, and that day, Jesus told us *is at the end of the world. The dead cannot be resurrected TWICE - 7 years before, and then again 7 years later (to scoop up the difference), that's not in the Bible.
*Mat 13:39 ...the harvest is the end of the world;...
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,674
1,221
113
#71
Not a question of salvation, but it can affect the eternal disposition of one's soul, according to Scripture.

If many will lose their faith in the end times apostacy, say for instance, by finding out the Pre-Trib Rapture is actually false, and the church will go through the Tribulation (and it has already started), then eternity without Christ is no small loss to suffer.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;​

Revelation makes it quite clear there will be two choices: the Mark, or enduring to the end for Christ, in most cases, death (Mat 24:22). So, the timing of His Coming is critical for the Saint to make preparations i.e. what do I do with my kids, or my parents, there will be a myriad of concerns that should be settled for peace of mind, and for navigating through those years).

The rallying call of the Pre-Trib belief is to be imminently ready, because we don't know when the thief is coming. We don't know when He will come for us individually (bodily death), but Paul states WE DO KNOW when He's coming for us collectively:

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


How can Jesus come before the Tribulation when *Satan won't be revealed until the middle of the 7 years (Mar 13:14)?
2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,​
2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and *the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,​
The Word says repeatedly, that the dead in Christ are resurrected only ONCE on the day He comes back for us. This resurrection of the dead is mandatory before the living Saints can be raptured, and that day, Jesus told us *is at the end of the world. The dead cannot be resurrected TWICE - 7 years before, and then again 7 years later (to scoop up the difference), that's not in the Bible.
*Mat 13:39 ...the harvest is the end of the world;...
So if I am incorrect and the entire Body of Christ had to go thru the Tribulation, are you then concluding that it will be better for our lives on Earth to cease before that?

Is there anything for the Body of Christ to look forward to during that period?

Let me give you a simple example, if Tribulation starts in Year X, and a Christian happen to pass away in year X-1, will he get the same reward at the end, with another Christian who had to go thru the 7 years?
 

TheWaytoGo

Active member
Dec 13, 2020
103
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#72
So if I am incorrect and the entire Body of Christ had to go thru the Tribulation, are you then concluding that it will be better for our lives on Earth to cease before that?

Is there anything for the Body of Christ to look forward to during that period?

Let me give you a simple example, if Tribulation starts in Year X, and a Christian happen to pass away in year X-1, will he get the same reward at the end, with another Christian who had to go thru the 7 years?


There is salvation, and there are rewards/crowns according to His Judgment.

I get the feeling you are trying to say something more than you have asked here.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,674
1,221
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#73
There is salvation, and there are rewards/crowns according to His Judgment.

I get the feeling you are trying to say something more than you have asked here.
So you believe a Christian that goes thru the Tribulation, without losing his salvation, will get more rewards than a Christian who happen to pass away just before the Tribulation starts?
 

TheWaytoGo

Active member
Dec 13, 2020
103
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#74
So you believe a Christian that goes thru the Tribulation, without losing his salvation, will get more rewards than a Christian who happen to pass away just before the Tribulation starts?
Not at all.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,674
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#75
so It’s back to the original question, why do God want the body of Christ to go thru the tribulation when he already promised that we are delivered from the wrath to come?
 

TheWaytoGo

Active member
Dec 13, 2020
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#76
Because the Tribulation is not His Wrath. If it is, why is he killing His own Children and leaving the unrighteous unharmed?

That is impossible. Iff Satan is doing the killing of the Tribulation Saints, then automatically the word of the Lord is true - Satan is given the power to work his wrath, and commit atrocities, just like he was allowed in Job.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​
Rev_6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.​
Rev_6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​
We will not receive His wrath, it comes after the Tribulation.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,392
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#77
Faith is not a work.
When we have faith in what scripture tells us, we act on that faith. Posters, right and left, get all upset when we speak of acting out our faith, wrongly saying we are working for salvation.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,940
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#78
When we have faith in what scripture tells us, we act on that faith. Posters, right and left, get all upset when we speak of acting out our faith, wrongly saying we are working for salvation.
Nothing wrong with acting out our faith or with the salvation we have we do something with it . Thats what Paul is wanting all believers to be part of for the furtherance of the Gospel . If Every believer sat and did nothing well I wouldn't be saved thats certain .
 
K

KT88

Guest
#79
1) Paul said he could find himself disqualified. Disqualified from what? Salvation? Entering the Kingdom of God?

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


2) What is the Kingdom of God? Rich men will enter it with much difficulty, surely that doesn't mean rich men can't ever receive salvation?

Mat 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.
Mat_6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.​
Mat_12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.​
Mat_21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.​
Mar_1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”​
Mar_9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”​
Mar_9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,​
3) What is the difference between the Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of God?
Rom_15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;
1Co_9:12 If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.
Gal_1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Php_1:27 Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,​
Mar_1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
Rom_1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
1Th_2:8 So, being affectionately desirous of you, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us.​
1Pe_4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

I've just discovered a former Moody Bible Institute professor's (Charles Cooper), series on the Gospel of God, the Gospel of Christ, and the Kingdom of God as expressed by Christ and the epistles. Cooper believes knowing the difference between the three is essential to the Christian walk and understanding of eternity.

I don't have a clear understanding of the difference between the two gospels or exactly what the kingdom of God is that we should be striving to enter. I'm interested in your studies and thoughts.
Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are describing the same thing. Same with gospel of God and gospel of Christ. Some have gotten in to knots attempting to claim they are not.
 
Dec 11, 2020
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#80
All of the Apostles & disciples were told to go & teach "The Gospel of the Kingdom" not the Gospel of Christ, not the Gospel of Salvation. So, we should all do a deep study & learn just what is the Gospel of the Kingdom.