Will The Actual Calvinists Here Please Stand Up?
- Thread starter bluejean_bible
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yup thats the logical conclusion. I know they will protest, but in their own confessions of faith this truth is laid out. Let me show you the double speak in one calvinist confession of faith [1689 baptist confession]:
On the view of Free Will, ch IX, the confession states:
"III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."
And then in ch III of Eternal Decrees the Confession reads,
"III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."
Now here's where the conflict arises!
Although the Confession says very little about prophecy (which is no surprise since Calvin avoided Revelation and was amillennial), it offers this statement in ch XXXIII,
" III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin, and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly. Amen."
Get that! to "DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN". If man is totally unable to respond or perceive the gospel, then how can he be DETERRED? If man is predestined for hell and eternal punishment, then are not the Calvinist being disobedient against God's "eternal decree" in trying to convince a man against God's will to DETER him from sin?
If a man is foreordained to hell, then he can not be deterred.
This is a fatal flaw of logic within the Confession against its own system, and is to be expected when man dictates human reasoning above the Bible.
On the view of Free Will, ch IX, the confession states:
"III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."
And then in ch III of Eternal Decrees the Confession reads,
"III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."
Now here's where the conflict arises!
Although the Confession says very little about prophecy (which is no surprise since Calvin avoided Revelation and was amillennial), it offers this statement in ch XXXIII,
" III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin, and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly. Amen."
Get that! to "DETER ALL MEN FROM SIN". If man is totally unable to respond or perceive the gospel, then how can he be DETERRED? If man is predestined for hell and eternal punishment, then are not the Calvinist being disobedient against God's "eternal decree" in trying to convince a man against God's will to DETER him from sin?
If a man is foreordained to hell, then he can not be deterred.
This is a fatal flaw of logic within the Confession against its own system, and is to be expected when man dictates human reasoning above the Bible.
-
2
-
2
-
1
- Show all
I think they are a reflection of Proverbs 16:9
Jesus said "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
He did not say " you could not". That means they chose not to believe. Of course the first statement is true, not the second.
He did not say " you could not". That means they chose not to believe. Of course the first statement is true, not the second.
-
2
- Show all
Ummm, yes? 
If you go back to post #143, my question was in response to a statement that said someone predestined to hell could not be deterred. While I don't believe anyone is predestined to hell, sinners can be deterred from sin through consequences, whether they are saved or not. My question was asked to show this reality.
-
1
- Show all
The threat of negative consequences has always had the effect of deterring undesired actions. While it doesn't always in every particular case, on the whole it does.
The ineffectiveness such an approach is that merely getting someone to refrain from a behavior doesn't alter an individual's desire to perform the behavior. To alter the desire or will of an individual would require that the heart and the mind be altered. This is the essence of salvation.
The ineffectiveness such an approach is that merely getting someone to refrain from a behavior doesn't alter an individual's desire to perform the behavior. To alter the desire or will of an individual would require that the heart and the mind be altered. This is the essence of salvation.