Will The Holy Spirit Remain After The Rapture?

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,145
2,365
113
#61
The body of Christ will not be raptured. We will face persecution. Everyone that does not take the mark of the beast will not be able to buy or sell. Some will be killed others will be put in jail. And it will be like the time of Noah. There will be monsters on the earth. (demons)
No, the church will not be here on the earth to face persecution, for the reign of the beast takes place during the time of God's wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

If you will take notice, the word "church" is used 19 times within chapters 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from the narrative. You will not see the word "church" from chapter 4 onward. The next time the church is referred to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride receiving her fine linen, white and pure at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven during the time of God's wrath. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she will have just previously received.

Those referred to as not taking the mark, being killed or taken into captivity, is referring to those white-robed saints which no man can count introduced in Rev.7:9-17, which the elder identifies as the great tribulation saints. These are those who will have come to Christ after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath. This group is never referred to as the church.
 
Aug 8, 2018
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#62
Some pastors say yes the Holy Spirit will leave the earth after the Rapture of the Church. I believe the Holy Spirit will not leave. Why? Because the bible teaches us that people will be saved after the Rapture of the Church and during "The Great Tribulation."
Most correctly is, those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching up or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. All others who convert to Christianity through their teaching are the Brides offspring Rev12:17 and those who died prior to this end of the age church are too part of the second resurrection. " The first shall be last and the Last shall be first".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the Beast System, not those who have died before even this. For it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections. If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THE BEAST SYSTEM ERA) and fell asleep to the earth . Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ.The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up are only touched by the hand of God, not man
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
REV:21 A New Heaven and a New Earth

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:

“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,(thousand year reign with Yeshua(Jesus)

and He will live with them.

They will be His people,

and God Himself will be with them as their God.b

4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,c

and there will be no more death

or mourning or crying or pain,

for the former things have passed away.”


REV20: Continued- 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,145
2,365
113
#63
The bad news, after tribulation comes, you will all be let down when you're not. And then you will all be mocked at for it.

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Jesus said the angels the gathering of his elect occurs after the tribulation. I believe him.
Pre-trib...the most fabricated, widely held, deceitful false doctrine that has ever entered the church. The list of fabrications are truly endless and impressive![/QUOTE]

John 14:1-3 is the Lord's promise to all believers, that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us and take us to be with Him. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a detailed account of when the Lord comes for His church.

Regarding this, we have scripture which states that "we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that He would keep us out of that time of wrath. Therefore, since the first seal of the scroll being opened initiates God's wrath, the church must then be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened.

At the end of Paul's detailed account of the Lord descending and calling up the church, he said, "therefore comfort one another with these words." If the church was to first go through God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then believers could not comfort one another and that because we would be going through God's wrath. Also, when writing to Titus, Paul referred to our waiting for the Lord's return to rescue us as the "blessed hope." Again, if believers were to go through God's wrath first, then it would be no blessed hope.

This error comes from a lack of not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
 
P

pjharrison

Guest
#64
No, the church will not be here on the earth to face persecution, for the reign of the beast takes place during the time of God's wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

If you will take notice, the word "church" is used 19 times within chapters 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from the narrative. You will not see the word "church" from chapter 4 onward. The next time the church is referred to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride receiving her fine linen, white and pure at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven during the time of God's wrath. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she will have just previously received.

Those referred to as not taking the mark, being killed or taken into captivity, is referring to those white-robed saints which no man can count introduced in Rev.7:9-17, which the elder identifies as the great tribulation saints. These are those who will have come to Christ after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath. This group is never referred to as the church.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.
This is after the great tribulation.
 
P

pjharrison

Guest
#65
The bad news, after tribulation comes, you will all be let down when you're not. And then you will all be mocked at for it.

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Jesus said the angels the gathering of his elect occurs after the tribulation. I believe him.

Pre-trib...the most fabricated, widely held, deceitful false doctrine that has ever entered the church. The list of fabrications are truly endless and impressive!
True there is no rapture, you've been tricked, deceived, bamboozled.
 
Aug 8, 2018
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70
28
#66
Most correctly is, those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching up or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet today only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. All others who convert to Christianity through their teaching are the Brides offspring Rev12:17 and those who died prior to this end of the age church are too part of the second resurrection who were Christians who were not martyred. " The first shall be last and the Last shall be part of the first fruits ".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the Beast System, not those who have died before even this. For it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections. If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THE BEAST SYSTEM ERA) and fell asleep to the earth . Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ.The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up are only touched by the hand of God, not man
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
REV:21 A New Heaven and a New Earth

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:

“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,(thousand year reign with Yeshua(Jesus)

and He will live with them.

They will be His people,

and God Himself will be with them as their God.b

4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,c

and there will be no more death

or mourning or crying or pain,

for the former things have passed away.”


REV20: Continued- 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless!
TWEAKED SOMETHING, Sorry this was off the cuff.
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
#67
TWEAKED SOMETHING, Sorry this was off the cuff.
TWEAK:

Tweaked something, sorry this was off the cuff. ISSUE:
So, out of 7.6 billion people on the planet( today (ADDED)), only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. All others who convert to Christianity through their teaching are the Brides offspring Rev12:17 and those who died prior to this end of the age church that is(Christians who were not martyred (ADDED) ) are too part of the second resurrection. " The first shall be last and the Last shall be of the first fruits".
All Christian Martyred souls throughout Christianity will be part of the first Resurrection. I love How the Lord always saves me from ruin. God Bless!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,145
2,365
113
#68
Most correctly is, those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching up or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…
As I have previously stated, if you have the church being gathered after God's tribulation/wrath when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, then you will have put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. God's wrath will be in operation throughout that entire seven years leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

The underlying principle is that, Jesus suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ. They have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, why would God send those who believe in His Son through His wrath?

The resurrection of those who have died in Christ will take place, with the living being transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies immediately after those who will have resurrected. The entire church from beginning to end, will meet the Lord in the air where He will take them all back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and I Thes.4:13-17

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. All others who convert to Christianity through their teaching are the Brides offspring Rev12:17 and those who died prior to this end of the age church are too part of the second resurrection. " The first shall be last and the Last shall be first".
You have been reading to much of Tim Lahaye! The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel who are sealed in Rev.7 are the same group of 144,000 mentioned in Rev.14 after they have been changed and caught up. Why in the world would you interpret this as being two groups of 144,000? Tim Lahaye did the same thing with the book of life. Because the book of life was referred to as "the Lamb's book of life" he interpreted this as meaning that there were two books of life, which is ridiculous! It is simply the same book mentioned with a little difference in the title: "the book of life" and "the Lamb's book of life."


The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the Beast System, not those who have died before even this.
Please show us where in the scripture where it mentions that these are martyred during the beasts kingdom. The scripture states that it is those who have died in Christ, i.e. those from the on-set of the church until the resurrection takes place, that are in view. nothing is mentioned about the beasts kingdom in the context.

What that scripture is saying is that, those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church up till the resurrection, their bodies will be reanimated and their spirits will be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the bodies of those who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies, with the entire church meeting the Lord in the air, where He will take us all back to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us according to His promise in John 14:1-3.

(Continued because of word restrictions)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,145
2,365
113
#69
(Continued)

For it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections. If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THE BEAST SYSTEM ERA) and fell asleep to the earth . Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ.The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up are only touched by the hand of God, not man
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
These who are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 is in reference to the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who will have died keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image, nor will have received his mark. This group is not the church, but those white robed saints which no man can count who become believers after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign. If you will notice, the word "church" is never seen again after the end of chapter 3 and during the narrative of God's wrath.

TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
It is those great tribulation saints who are resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age described in Rev.19:4-6 and which initiates His thousand year reign that are apart of the first resurrection. Those who come to life at the end of the thousand years are not apart of the first resurrection, but are the unrighteous dead throughout all of history who will resurrect and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. It is these who the second death will have power over.


REV:21 A New Heaven and a New Earth

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:

“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man,(thousand year reign with Yeshua(Jesus)

and He will live with them.

They will be His people,

and God Himself will be with them as their God.b

4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,c

and there will be no more death

or mourning or crying or pain,

for the former things have passed away.”
All of the above takes place after everything on this current heaven and earth has been completed. It is the eternal state:


In Revelation 21, the recorded history of man is at its end. All of the ages have come and gone.

Christ has gathered His church in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17).

The Tribulation has passed (Revelation 6—18). The battle of Armageddon has been fought and won by our Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:17–21).

Satan has been chained for the 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth (Revelation 20:1–3). A new, glorious temple has been established in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 40—48).

The final rebellion against God has been quashed, and Satan has received his just punishment, an eternity in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:7–10.)

The Great White Throne Judgment has taken place, and mankind has been judged (Revelation 20:11–15).

REV20: Continued- 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless!
Please show us in relation to the end of the tribulation where the "last trumpet" is sounded.
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
#70
FULLY TWEAKED NOW. PHEW! THIS IS HARD. BUT I NEED MY i's dotted and my t's crossed. And as to responses, all are entitled to their opinions. This is a discussion where all our Christian views are to be shared. I am not offend by those who disagree. It is enough for me to love Yeshua Hamashiach. And I have not read ANYONE'S writings only the Bible concerning the rapture.

ANYWAY revised version of my original post:


Most correctly is..... those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching/ or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire- the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

This is a spontaneous death and resurrection designated for those chosen and Elect who are not to be martyred. But first our martyred brethren will rise. The portion who are not martyred are those who are chosen to teach (THE SHEPHERDESS PORTION) and are the 144, 000 of Rev.14. The other group who will be martyred is the 144,000 Rev.7. Moral of the story these are the FIRST RESURRECTION first fruits unto God and the rest of the souls who are not part of the thousand year reign with Christ are the second. The first have authority over the second.
So out of 7.6 billion people on the planet today, only 288, 000 will be the chosen Elect end time Bride. All others who convert to Christianity through(The Shepherdess portion of the Church) are the Brides offspring Rev12:17 . Who is the offspring? Rev.7. They will be martyred and those who died prior to this end of the age church that is(Christians who were not martyred) are part of the second resurrection. " The first shall be last and the Last shall be of the first fruits".
The Return of the Lord 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

Here it speaks of those whom we see martyred during the Beast System, not those who have died before even this. For it is clear in Rev.20 there are two Resurrections. If those who do not fall asleep to the earth but are instantly transformed arise with those who were martyred, then they are part of the first Resurrection because they are caught up with those who were martyred( DURING THE BEAST SYSTEM ERA) and fell asleep to the earth . The Rev. is geared to an end time Elect. Two groups are present in Rev.20 , those given authority to judge (Seated on Thrones) and those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ. That does not mean that souls who were martyred in prior Christian history are not part of the first resurrection.

The portion of the elect meant to be snatched up are only touched by the hand of God, not man. This is regarding the Rapture which has not ever happened to a Large group of people. Because of course all the apostles are part of the first resurrection . St . Paul clearly states those who have fallen asleep are clearly first. But this is for those Christians who were martyred throughout Christian history.
But for the End Time portion of today This is what Rev. is speaking of.
Rev20: 4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge (FIRST GROUP REV14). And (And denotes an including and also) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands( SECOND GROUP REV.7). And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

TWO PART RESURRECTION OF TWO GROUPS:
Satan Bound Rev.20:5-7
…5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev21.A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying:
“Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, (thousand year reign with Yeshua (Jesus) )
and He will live with them.
They will be His people,
and God Himself will be with them as their God.
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,
and there will be no more death
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”

REV. 20 CONTINUED: 7When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,…

There is no pretrib or midtrib rapture only an end of the tribulation, HENCE LAST TRUMPET. God Bless!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,145
2,365
113
#71
FULLY TWEAKED NOW. PHEW! THIS IS HARD. BUT I NEED MY i's dotted and my t's crossed. And as to responses, all are entitled to their opinions. This is a discussion where all our Christian views are to be shared. I am not offend by those who disagree. It is enough for me to love Yeshua Hamashiach. And I have not read ANYONE'S writings only the Bible concerning the rapture.

ANYWAY revised version of my original post:


Most correctly is..... those who have the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit will be taken up. The word rapture is no where in scripture but a snatching/ or caught up is. This is at the end of the Tribulation, at the Last trumpet which is the return of Christ to gather unto Himself His own, and carry out His Justice- COMPLETE ANNIHILATION of His enemies and the purging by fire- the earth which makes room for the new earth.
Greetings FirstLovedByHim,
Actually, the word "Rapture" does appear in the Latin Vulgate. But the actual Greek word is "Harpazo" which is defined as follows:

Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Short Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery
Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

HELPS Word-studies
726
harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force

"Harpzo" is the same word used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven, when the Male child is "caught up" to God and His throne and when Philip was "carried away" by the Spirit after the Eunuch was Baptized. It carries the idea of force suddenly exercised, to be snatched up. This is what will happen to believer prior to God's wrath, not after it. We have to stay within the boundaries of scripture. That said, since scripture also states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath. After all, believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. God sees believers with the same righteousness as His Son even though we are still in the process of being transformed into His image. Since Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, how then could we go through God's wrath?

Where, O Death, is Your Victory?1 Corinthians 15:50-52
Paul said the above in reference to when the resurrection of the dead and the living are changed because at that moment they receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Regarding the same context, Paul said the following:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

It is sown as perishable and is raised imperishable = This current body decays, but the resurrection body will be immortal

It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory
= It was born with the sinful nature, but in the resurrection it will be glorified

It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power = This body is restricted to our mental and physical abilities, but will be raise having heavenly powers

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…
Regarding the above, this body of flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because it has a sinful nature and it dies and decays.
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
#72
Greetings FirstLovedByHim,
Actually, the word "Rapture" does appear in the Latin Vulgate. But the actual Greek word is "Harpazo" which is defined as follows:

Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Short Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery
Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

HELPS Word-studies
726
harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force

"Harpzo" is the same word used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven, when the Male child is "caught up" to God and His throne and when Philip was "carried away" by the Spirit after the Eunuch was Baptized. It carries the idea of force suddenly exercised, to be snatched up. This is what will happen to believer prior to God's wrath, not after it. We have to stay within the boundaries of scripture. That said, since scripture also states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath. After all, believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. God sees believers with the same righteousness as His Son even though we are still in the process of being transformed into His image. Since Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, how then could we go through God's wrath?



Paul said the above in reference to when the resurrection of the dead and the living are changed because at that moment they receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Regarding the same context, Paul said the following:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

It is sown as perishable and is raised imperishable = This current body decays, but the resurrection body will be immortal

It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory = It was born with the sinful nature, but in the resurrection it will be glorified

It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power = This body is restricted to our mental and physical abilities, but will be raise having heavenly powers



Regarding the above, this body of flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because it has a sinful nature and it dies and decays.
No Rapture means:
rap·ture
ˈrapCHər/
noun
noun: rapture; noun: Rapture; noun: the Rapture
  1. 1.
    a feeling of intense pleasure or joy.
    "Leonora listened with rapture"
    synonyms:ecstasy, bliss, exaltation, euphoria, elation, joy, enchantment, delight, happiness, pleasure
    "she gazed at him in rapture"
Harpazo is as I said a snatching or being caught up. You use the Harpazo def. right . But Rapture came to be -during the Evangelical and Born Again movement. But for all intensive purposes it is okay to use Rapture- as it has come to be known as a snatching up. I have no problem either way. I believe in a Snatching up or what some like to call "Rapture" I just differ as to when. Thank you for your greeting and God Bless!
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
110
28
#73
Pre-trib...the most fabricated, widely held, deceitful false doctrine that has ever entered the church. The list of fabrications are truly endless and impressive!
John 14:1-3 is the Lord's promise to all believers, that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us and take us to be with Him. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a detailed account of when the Lord comes for His church.

Regarding this, we have scripture which states that "we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that He would keep us out of that time of wrath. Therefore, since the first seal of the scroll being opened initiates God's wrath, the church must then be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened.

At the end of Paul's detailed account of the Lord descending and calling up the church, he said, "therefore comfort one another with these words." If the church was to first go through God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then believers could not comfort one another and that because we would be going through God's wrath. Also, when writing to Titus, Paul referred to our waiting for the Lord's return to rescue us as the "blessed hope." Again, if believers were to go through God's wrath first, then it would be no blessed hope.

This error comes from a lack of not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.[/QUOTE]
This misunderstanding comes from pre-tribbers who say the tribulation period is God's Wrath. God's wrath isn't averted by a rapture. It's averted by Christ through repentance. God doesn't remove people from their troubles, he helps them through them.

The purpose of the rapture is protect Christians from friendly fire when the Lord returns to do battle.
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
110
28
#74
Verses that debunk pre-trib that pre-tribbers had to pervert...

1Th 4:15-17 The harpazo happens at the Parousia.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia)of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

PAROUSIA...
presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.
__________________________
Mathew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...V.30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: V31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Elect...

EKLEKTOS
picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

________________________________
2 Thes. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, V.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
GATHER...
episynagōgē
a gathering together in one place
the (religious) assembly (of Christians)
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
110
28
#75
Sorry about post # 73, the quote didn't take right or something!
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
#76
Greetings FirstLovedByHim,
Actually, the word "Rapture" does appear in the Latin Vulgate. But the actual Greek word is "Harpazo" which is defined as follows:

Strong's Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Short Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery
Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

HELPS Word-studies
726
harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force

"Harpzo" is the same word used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven, when the Male child is "caught up" to God and His throne and when Philip was "carried away" by the Spirit after the Eunuch was Baptized. It carries the idea of force suddenly exercised, to be snatched up. This is what will happen to believer prior to God's wrath, not after it. We have to stay within the boundaries of scripture. That said, since scripture also states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the church must be gathered prior to the on-set of God's wrath. After all, believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. God sees believers with the same righteousness as His Son even though we are still in the process of being transformed into His image. Since Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, how then could we go through God's wrath?



Paul said the above in reference to when the resurrection of the dead and the living are changed because at that moment they receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Regarding the same context, Paul said the following:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

It is sown as perishable and is raised imperishable = This current body decays, but the resurrection body will be immortal

It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory = It was born with the sinful nature, but in the resurrection it will be glorified

It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power = This body is restricted to our mental and physical abilities, but will be raise having heavenly powers



Regarding the above, this body of flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because it has a sinful nature and it dies and decays.
How has any Christian been able to endure anything............by His grace. We will not be adversely affected by the wrath as were not the Israelites of Goshen Egypt during the exodus. Even the portion who will be behead will be under such grace they will not fear. The portion snatched up experience the same grace give to mother Miriam Hebrew name (Mary English) and will not be martyred as she was not. They are charged as she was to bring forth the Male Child but now in a spiritual manner but with the same effect upon the world.Rev.12.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,145
2,365
113
#78
R
No Rapture means:
rap·ture
ˈrapCHər/
noun
noun: rapture; noun: Rapture; noun: the Rapture
  1. 1.
    a feeling of intense pleasure or joy.
    "Leonora listened with rapture"
    synonyms:ecstasy, bliss, exaltation, euphoria, elation, joy, enchantment, delight, happiness, pleasure
    "she gazed at him in rapture"
Harpazo is as I said a snatching or being caught up. You use the Harpazo def. right . But Rapture came to be -during the Evangelical and Born Again movement. But for all intensive purposes it is okay to use Rapture- as it has come to be known as a snatching up. I have no problem either way. I believe in a Snatching up or what some like to call "Rapture" I just differ as to when. Thank you for your greeting and God Bless!
The time of the "catching away" taking place is easy to understand. In between right now and the end of the age, the wrath of God must take place and in fact will be ended when Christ returns after the 7th bowl is poured out. Since scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the "catching away" must and will take place prior to said wrath, which will be initiated by the first seal being opened. If your interpretation has the church being gathered when Christ returns to the earth, then the problem with that is that it puts the church through the entire wrath of God, which is not according to the Lord's promise. Instead of looking forward to His promise to gather us, you and others are looking for the antichrist and God's wrath.
 
Aug 8, 2018
222
70
28
#79
R


The time of the "catching away" taking place is easy to understand. In between right now and the end of the age, the wrath of God must take place and in fact will be ended when Christ returns after the 7th bowl is poured out. Since scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the "catching away" must and will take place prior to said wrath, which will be initiated by the first seal being opened. If your interpretation has the church being gathered when Christ returns to the earth, then the problem with that is that it puts the church through the entire wrath of God, which is not according to the Lord's promise. Instead of looking forward to His promise to gather us, you and others are looking for the antichrist and God's wrath.
So, your stance is a midtrib?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,145
2,365
113
#80
John 14:1-3 is the Lord's promise to all believers, that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us and take us to be with Him. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a detailed account of when the Lord comes for His church.

Regarding this, we have scripture which states that "we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that He would keep us out of that time of wrath. Therefore, since the first seal of the scroll being opened initiates God's wrath, the church must then be removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened.

At the end of Paul's detailed account of the Lord descending and calling up the church, he said, "therefore comfort one another with these words." If the church was to first go through God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then believers could not comfort one another and that because we would be going through God's wrath. Also, when writing to Titus, Paul referred to our waiting for the Lord's return to rescue us as the "blessed hope." Again, if believers were to go through God's wrath first, then it would be no blessed hope.

This error comes from a lack of not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
This misunderstanding comes from pre-tribbers who say the tribulation period is God's Wrath. God's wrath isn't averted by a rapture. It's averted by Christ through repentance. God doesn't remove people from their troubles, he helps them through them.

The purpose of the rapture is protect Christians from friendly fire when the Lord returns to do battle.[/QUOTE]

The tribulation period is not "Peoples troubles." It is God's troubles that He will be bringing upon a Christ rejecting world. The word "tribulation" is just another designation for the wrath of God. I can already see that you don't have near enough study on this topic to even comment on it, much less teach it! You need to do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to get an understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the first four seals a fourth of the earths population will be killed, which based on the current population would be over 1.7 billion people and Jesus is the One who will be responsible, because He is the One opening the seals. I say it again, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. The purpose of the catching up of the church is to keep us from being exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which are going to decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government in preparation for his millennial kingdom.

By the way, regarding when the Lord returns to do battle, we the church are those who will be following Him out of heaven on white horses and wearing our fine linen, white and pure which we will have received at the wedding of the Lamb. We, those who will have bee caught up will be that army following the Lord out of heaven, His "called, chosen and faithful followers."