Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

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Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
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Where do you read in the Bible that Paul had an eye disease? You are using eisegesis rather than exegesis. Paul said that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger (angelos in the Greek, which means "angel") of Satan sent to buffet him.

amen really good post. I remember years back creflo dollar a disciple of kenneth copeland. teaching just absurd ideas like " Jesus taught more about money than He did the kingdom of God" and " people think Jesus was a poor vagabond, but he wasnt, Jesus rode a donkey thats was never ridden before" just complete distortions designed to support the health and wealth doctrine. I look now at rod parsley and see just where that doctrine has went, all the way to a place of Just clear heresy and unadulterated Greed, even now i cannot understand how any christian could fall for this doctrine. i suspect its because it appeals to self as do all false doctrines focus on self. this world we Live in is not our Home and we are promised many trials, struggles and thornes our place is to pray continually and submit to Gods will no matter our circumstance. God is well able to heal any disease, But He does not always do that and does not ever promise perfect Health or financial prosperity in the new covenant. in fact the new tells us that if we are blessed financially, then we are responsible for being generous to those in need. which strangely, the health and wealth doctrines are always void of, the directive to give all we are able to the poor. the more we have, the more we are to give. whether a poor man on the corner begging for a dollar or the rich man in the high rise penthouse, the heart is what the Kingdom of God is about, righteousness, peace and Joy in the spirit. the world worships money, christians are told " you cannot serve both moiney and God, you will love one and Hate the other, or serve one and despise the other.

Pauls thorn in my belief was an eye disease.

I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong.13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. "

also paul wrote with extra ordinarily large letters, which indicates a possible eye issue. and Pauls thorn was a hindrance to His ministry. im thinking when He was blinded, God left a remnant of that that possibly reoccured at times to keep paul humble and dependant on Gods provision. this is only my opinion though, not really a concrete scriptural teaching. Perfect Health will be a part of our new home, and is not at all guaranteed here and now.......
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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I could post lot's of scriptures that show beyond a shadow of doubt in my mind that our loving Father wants us well but I am not going to do it because it may be a violation of the admin opinions and that is their right to have that as we are using their site and we thank God for it.

There have been many abuses in the past and many people hurt for various reasons over this subject. I'll leave that with the Lord.

I am just going to state my belief in God's word as revealed through our Lord Jesus Christ and not debate things because of the emotional involvement with some of us and it never leads to anything good and edifiying.

People are allowed to belief what they want - that is between them and the Lord. Don't let anyone "lord it over your faith" - that is a manifestation of a controlling religious spirit and it is not from God - but check everything out with the Holy Spirit within you by the witness of the Holy Spirit and scriptures.

We can change the meaning of scriptures by making them "metaphorical". We are allowed to have our opinion on subjects that are different from others. Luther had a different opinion on a subject and he was persecuted for it by the orthodox church at the time.

Jesus never once refused to heal those that came to Him. NOT one single person.

I have never seen Jesus saying to anyone that came for healing - " I cannot heal you because God is trying to teach you something and you need to suffer for Him."

I have never seen Jesus saying to anyone coming for healing - " I cannot heal you until you forgive your mother-in-law.":

I have never seen Jesus say to anyone - "No, I cannot heal you because you have all this sin in your life".

I have never seen Jesus say to anyone - "No, I cannot heal you because you have not been eating right - ( funny thing is that they were all on the Mediterranean Diet..lol )

I have heard Jesus say to some that came to Him - " If you can believe - all things are possible."


Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father.

Jesus came to reveal the Father and His true nature to us as truth in the OT was progressive and in pictures and in shadows, but it ends with the revelation of Jesus Christ and what He has already done in His finished work.

So,
whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways
,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3[/SUP] AndHe is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

If we want to see what the Father's will is concerning a subject - see what Jesus did while He was on this earth.

If we want to see how the Father views sinners - look to see how Jesus interacted with them. ( both the prostitutes and the religious Pharisees )

If we want to see if it's God's will to heal people in their physical bodies - look to Jesus while He was here on this earth.

If we want to see what the Father's discipline looks like - watch Jesus discipline the disciples - He did it with His words.

Jesus and the Father are One in their nature, purpose and love.

​Amen., just followed the link. Worth re posting.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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Where do you read in the Bible that Paul had an eye disease? You are using eisegesis rather than exegesis. Paul said that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger (angelos in the Greek, which means "angel") of Satan sent to buffet him.
Living in divine health, a WOF doctrine, is not biblical:

Surely you remember that I was sick when I first brought you the Good News. But even though my condition tempted you to reject me, you did not despise me or turn me away. No, you took me in and cared for me as though I were an angel from God or even Christ Jesus himself. Where is that joyful and grateful spirit you felt then? I am sure you would have taken out your own eyes and given them to me if it had been possible.
Galatians 4:13*-‬15 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/gal.4.13-15.NLT
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
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If it is God's will that we are always to be in health then why has every Christian for the past 2,000 years died of a health problem?


I believe for the same reason it's not God's will that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. Not all will come but the offer is made to all. We all will die if the Lord doesn't come in our life time because we have these mortal bodies but for the time we are here., we have these great and precious promises to learn about and take by grace through faith one step at a time. None of us have arrived but we are on our way each day as we see the day approaching.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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I believe for the same reason it's not God's will that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. Not all will come but the offer is made to all. We all will die if the Lord doesn't come in our life time because we have these mortal bodies but for the time we are here., we have these great and precious promises to learn about and take by grace through faith one step at a time. None of us have arrived but we are on our way each day as we see the day approaching.
You never will approach any further than what has already been revealed in the Scriptures until Jesus returns. The WOF has an overrealized eschotology.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,071
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If it is God's will that we are always to be in health then why has every Christian for the past 2,000 years died of a health problem?
Not everyone dies of a health problem.
On my wife's side of the family, many of them knew when they were going and had no health issues. And they lived to be well over 100 years of age. They are a praying bunch.
And my sister died in her sleep.
 
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Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,261
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South
adelaiderevival.com
Never said I wasn't well versed in it. I won't belong to anything that purposely attacks others because they don't line up with their own opinions.
If we all took our bat and went home, because others disagreed with us, then there would be no one left on Christian Chat.
Stop being a sook. Open up your Bible and start reading for yourself.
Remember how we are supposed to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God -
not Kenny and Benny, but from God.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
If you wish to talk about opinions, please see the other thread which is going on right now. I want to keep this thread to discuss what the BIBLE says about the Word Faith teaching, and why the Bible says it is wrong.

Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.

As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)


Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.

If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?

There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:

1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer

2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)

Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.

So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:

1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.

As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!

"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10


Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:

The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.

Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.

All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.


The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts

a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.

"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22

It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.

b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)

c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8


The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.

It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.


"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6

While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.

Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)

"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV

This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:

"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)

The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"

Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)

Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!

"He himself bore our sins"
rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.

So my point!

Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.

But what did Isaiah himself intend??

The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.

The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.

As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.

Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.


Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 40 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.

Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!

"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
After 78 pages on this post, I'm assuming the original post was lost with naysaying. Thought I'd bring it back, considering the first page on this forum is, once again, being strewn with WoF pamphlets.