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Apr 27, 2023
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#62
In Isaiah 9:6, counselor is translated from a hebrew participle, יוֹעֵץ
Long:Hebrew Verb: Qal Participle Active Masculine Singular Absolute
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#63
In Isaiah 9:6, counselor is translated from a hebrew participle, יוֹעֵץ
Long:Hebrew Verb: Qal Participle Active Masculine Singular Absolute
Grammar does not determine interpretation by itself.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,643
5,906
113
#65
Jesus is certainly God the Son.
God is certainly God the father.
The Holy Spirit is certainly God the Spirit.

I am not contending these facts.

But

I believe our concept of the Trinity does not fully explain the depth of the topic. I fault no one for asking questions about the Trinity or even being confused about the facts. However, a person should not introduce myths and fables or different versions of scripture to satisfy their own conclusions.
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost”

“God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, “

the Spirit of God dwell in you….the Spirit of Christ,

Are these references to one spirit ?

“ The Holy Ghost , the spirit of christ , the spirit of God , the spirit of Gods son “

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4, 6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is the fulness of God in bodily form

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Father son holy ghost in one person
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,207
113
#67
The Son is with the Father is with the Holy Spirit, as in the beginning, and no one can separate them.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,643
5,906
113
#69
Mmm, more properly: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One.
One person bodily more specifically

“For in him ( singular person ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead( father son holy ghost ) bodily.” ( in flesh and blood )
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God ( singular but complete ) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we try to make Jesus the Christ only a third of the “ trinity “ we’re looking at it as of God is three rather than seeing Jesus is all three in one manifest fully before us in the gospel

“I and my Father are one.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,643
5,906
113
#70
In Isaiah 9:6, counselor is translated from a hebrew participle, יוֹעֵץ
Long:Hebrew Verb: Qal Participle Active Masculine Singular Absolute
Either way it says what it says about the son

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-7‬ ‭
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,041
1,798
113
#71
One person bodily more specifically

“For in him ( singular person ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead( father son holy ghost ) bodily.” ( in flesh and blood )
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God ( singular but complete ) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we try to make Jesus the Christ only a third of the “ trinity “ we’re looking at it as of God is three rather than seeing Jesus is all three in one manifest fully before us in the gospel

“I and my Father are one.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬
That's what it says but the depth of meaning still escapes most people.
 
Apr 27, 2023
538
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#72
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful one, who consults יוֹעֵץ The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,643
5,906
113
#73
That's what it says but the depth of meaning still escapes most people.
Yes I agree the couple verses tbat state a trinity concept are grown and then people try to explain what it means rather then realizing the entire Bible explains what it means and who it’s talking about

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: ( see he’s God the creator and also became the first creature one and the same expanding into his own creation himself in order to redeem it from sin and death )

for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ( this can only be speaking if God himself created by him ( father ) for him ( son )

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

before jesus was born

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after jesus the son of man was born

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;”
‭‭John‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after he was born a son of man lives and died sinless and rose up from death

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭

He has to become a man because earth was given to man and he doesn’t go back on his word so he fulfilled the requirements of man himself becoming one of us the hiers of creation from the beginning
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,041
1,798
113
#74
Yes I agree the couple verses tbat state a trinity concept are grown and then people try to explain what it means rather then realizing the entire Bible explains what it means and who it’s talking about

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: ( see he’s God the creator and also became the first creature one and the same expanding into his own creation himself in order to redeem it from sin and death )

for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. ( this can only be speaking if God himself created by him ( father ) for him ( son )

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

before jesus was born

The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's:

But the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after jesus the son of man was born

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;”
‭‭John‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after he was born a son of man lives and died sinless and rose up from death

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭

He has to become a man because earth was given to man and he doesn’t go back on his word so he fulfilled the requirements of man himself becoming one of us the hiers of creation from the beginning
Yes.

There had to be an answer to both sin and death which came into the earth by Adam. Then, there had to be a way for all men to receive the promises given to Abraham.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,643
5,906
113
#75
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful one, who consults יוֹעֵץ The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
The one who consults is the counsellor …..
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
#76
ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם.

5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom = "Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace"
 
Apr 27, 2023
538
39
28
#78
ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם.

5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom = "Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace"
Those words were not meant to be hyphenated in such a way. Participles have Subjects and Objects like sentences in all languages.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,130
30,264
113
#80
The messenger/angel of God who consult the Father who is Prince of the peace.
You said angels could be men if they were not of God.

You contradict yourself...

And besides, there were angels sent by God, who manifested as men.