Instead of man having the accountability, responsibility to act himself, that accountability/responsibility is all thrown upon God to move men. But then men become lost due to God's failure in moving men whereby God has culpability for the lost. And since men supposedly have no accountability/responsibility, they but are just innocent pawns randomly moved about or left alone by God.
Working out our Salvation
- Thread starter my_adonai_
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Your view of accountability/responsibility has the same dilemma in several Biblical truths.
Jesus held the present generation responsible (ekzeteo--"blood required," Lev 17:4, 20:9,11-13,16,27)
for the blood of all the prophets that had been shed since the beginning of the world (Lk 11:50).
God holds each man guilty of Adam's sin (Ro 5:12-21).
When God creates men knowing they will choose hell, he is responsible for creating men for hell.
You view makes God accountable in all of these.
Jesus held the present generation responsible (ekzeteo--"blood required," Lev 17:4, 20:9,11-13,16,27)
for the blood of all the prophets that had been shed since the beginning of the world (Lk 11:50).
God holds each man guilty of Adam's sin (Ro 5:12-21).
When God creates men knowing they will choose hell, he is responsible for creating men for hell.
You view makes God accountable in all of these.
Last edited:
F
God only chastens those that he loves, not all mankind. Psalm 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued (chastened) like other men. God does not love all mankind, the account of Jacob and Easue bears this out. Acts 2:38, these men were already born of the Spirit, otherwise they would not have been able to discern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14.
If God must "move" men for men to be saved and that is the ONLY way man can be saved is by God "moving" him' then it it God's fault, failure for those that remain 'unmoved". Your Calvinism has removed all accountability, responsibility away from man putting it all upon God.
There is nothing in Dan 4:35 that says God violates man's freewill or that man has no responsibility accountability on his part.
If a man can be saved without faith, then there is no reason for him to ever have faith.
Your Calvinistic theology has you rewriting the bible, reversing verses:
Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
One must have faith to have access to grace. You reverse this by saying man somehow has access to grace then can have faith later.
Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
You reverse this by saying one somehow first has everlasting life then should believe.
Jn 6:35 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."
You reverse this by having one for some reason to first never thirsting, then believes.
Jn 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."
You have one first having everlasting life then believe.
I can post a host of more verses that put faith/belief BEFORE salvation show that Calvinism is in total opposition to biblical teachings.
ROm 5:12-21 does not say one man is accountable for the sin of another man. Men suffer the consequence of Adam sinning but are not accountable.
"Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Men are accountable for their own sins and not another person's sins.
Secondly, God created man giving man freewill but that does not make God accountable for the way man abuses that freewill. If parents teach their child morality, teaches him right from wrong yet that child grows up to be a criminal are the parent then responsible, accountable for their son's actions? No.
Rom 9:22 if God force some men by fitting them to be vessels of wrath and men have no choice in the matter then God is at fault for those men being the vessels GOD MADE them to be. And if God forced them to be vessels of wrath, then why would God be longsuffering they be saved when God already predetermined them to be lost? Calvinism creates contradiction within the character of God.
"Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Men are accountable for their own sins and not another person's sins.
Secondly, God created man giving man freewill but that does not make God accountable for the way man abuses that freewill. If parents teach their child morality, teaches him right from wrong yet that child grows up to be a criminal are the parent then responsible, accountable for their son's actions? No.
Rom 9:22 if God force some men by fitting them to be vessels of wrath and men have no choice in the matter then God is at fault for those men being the vessels GOD MADE them to be. And if God forced them to be vessels of wrath, then why would God be longsuffering they be saved when God already predetermined them to be lost? Calvinism creates contradiction within the character of God.
Jn 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
Belief only does not make one a child of God but gives one the right TO BECOME a son of God. To be born of God one must be water baptized > the new birth, Jn 3:5, 1 Cor 12:13; Tts 3:5.
Jn 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Verse 13 is saying this new birth comes by God, NOT by the physical birth, NOT by works of merit, NOT by any man but it is of God. Therefore those that believe and have the right to BECOME a son of God exercises that right by obedience to the gospel in submitting to water baptism thereby being born again of God. There verse does NOT say only those that God wills can be born of God, you are reading that idea into the text, Why would Jesus say to Nicodemus he MUST be born again if God willed Nicodemus not be born again? The "must" Jesus used in Jn 3:7 implies man must choose to be born again of God or not by choosing to submit to water baptism or not. No one is exempt from being born again if he wishes to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'" Again, the new birth is of God (from above), Jn 1:13 and is not of men, not of the physical birth nor of works of merit.
F
It would be nice if you would give your interpretation of Dan 4:35. I do believe that God has given man a free will to chose things he does here in this world, but God does not give a man a free will when it comes to his eternal salvation because if God did, then the carnal man would never make a choice to do anything pertaining to the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14.