Works and Salvation

[newbirth]

Okay Paul is explaining salvation by faith, James is explaining that if you have faith in the cross it will be shown by works, not your works, but the Holy Spirit working through you so it's hand in hand and no contradiction. go get a double cheeseburger and think about it.

Paul is explaining salvation through faith...apart from works of the law....James is explaining salvation through faith with works...no contradiction...
Our faith is in what Christ did on the cross...not in the cross...that is a different gospel...are you one of those who have a cross with beads....or hanging around your neck?
what you are explaining is faith without works...dead faith...

 

[GuessWho]

Paul is explaining salvation through faith...apart from works of the law....James is explaining salvation through faith with works...no contradiction...
Our faith is in what Christ did on the cross...not in the cross...that is a different gospel...are you one of those who have a cross with beads....or hanging around your neck?
what you are explaining is faith without works...dead faith...

I would add that while Paul refers to works of the Law, James seems to understand works as good deeds, as faith being expressed in acts of love, kindness, etc.

(that's how I understand it)

 

[newbirth]

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that even the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" and tremble, but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, not in Christ, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Many people today have the same kind of belief that the demons have, yet their "trust and reliance" is in "works" for salvation rather than in Christ alone.

demons believe but have no works bro....that is what James says...you believe there is one God you do well...devils believe also and tremble...no works just like you.... but they tremble so that makes them better than you....if you believe Christ for your salvation your belief would result in obedience which means works...

James 1:22-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would add that while Paul refers to works of the Law, James seems to understand works as good deeds, as faith being expressed in acts of love, kindness, etc.

(that's how I understand it)

Paul also refers to all works in many of his writings, not just works of the law. He was not always just talking to jews..
Ttus 3: 5 is those good deeds you refer too. As is eph 2: 10.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

demons believe but have no works bro....that is what James says...you believe there is one God you do well...devils believe also and tremble...no works just like you.... but they tremble so that makes them better than you....if you believe Christ for your salvation your belief would result in obedience which means works...

James 1:22-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

No, That is not what James was saying,

James is saying YOU BELIEVE, YOU DO WELL, EVEN DEMONS BELIEVE. but what good will it do them. Belief is not enough, it takes FAITH

He is talking to people who have a mental belief, but have no faith. He is telling them to prove their faith (to themselves, it does not good to prove it to us, we can not save them)

Again, SInce when does an omniscient God need proof if someones faith is real or not? why do you belittle God so much by saying he needs proof first?

 

[GuessWho]

Paul also refers to all works in many of his writings, not just works of the law. He was not always just talking to jews..
Ttus 3: 5 is those good deeds you refer too. As is eph 2: 10.

...I believe your interpretation is a little bit forced. Whenever Paul talks about works of righteousness, I am sure he talks about the works of the Law (which was given to Israel) because it is precisely on this religious exclusivism (Torah, Temple, Covenant) that the Jews based their religious superiority (and even salvation) over pagan people.

 

[gb9]

also, to have and use a works-based theology, there has to be a point that you have done enough works to earn your salvation. if you do not have a clear point of ' enough' it becomes illogical.

 

[GuessWho]

No, That is not what James was saying,

James is saying YOU BELIEVE, YOU DO WELL, EVEN DEMONS BELIEVE. but what good will it do them. Belief is not enough, it takes FAITH

He is talking to people who have a mental belief, but have no faith. He is telling them to prove their faith (to themselves, it does not good to prove it to us, we can not save them)

Again, SInce when does an omniscient God need proof if someones faith is real or not? why do you belittle God so much by saying he needs proof first?

I think James is talking about having a LIVING faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think James is talking about having a LIVING faith.

yes, as apposed to have a false (dead) faith. which is no faith at all.

Paul taught the same faith James is, one which is active, and not dead.

 

[newbirth]

Wrong.

Paul Saved by faith not works. (not of the law, any work, eph 2, titus 3:5 and many other places) Created for works.

James faith, which does not have the works we were created to do, is dead (non existant)

James and paul did not contradict each other, their is not two gospel

go back and read Titus...Not by works of righteousness which we have done ....bro there are only two ways man could attain righteousness ...through the law and through faith...so take that rubbish about "any works" to someone who don't know better. So when Paul says works of righteousness he is talking about law...not any works...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


try now to figure out how and when... the washing of regeneration and renewing of the HS happens....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

...I believe your interpretation is a little bit forced. Whenever Paul talks about works of righteousness, I am sure he talks about the works of the Law (which was given to Israel) because it is precisely on this religious exclusivism (Torah, Temple, Covenant) that the Jews based their religious superiority (and even salvation) over pagan people.

How is it forced? That would be an assumption I would not dare to even make.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, he saved us. No works of the law here, he is talking about good deeds.

for by grace you have been saved through faith, not works. again, no works of the law here, he is talking about good deeds.
he finishes it by saying we were created in christ for good works, again, not works of the law. but good deeds.

I think we need to be careful in how we see things, it can get us into trouble

 

[mailmandan]

I would add that while Paul refers to works of the Law, James seems to understand works as good deeds, as faith being expressed in acts of love, kindness, etc.

Which you cannot separate from the moral aspect of the Law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the Law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the Law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

So Paul did not merely say that we are not saved by specific works of the Law, but are saved by good works in general. He said saved through faith, not works; not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us; He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

go back and read Titus...Not by works of righteousness which we have done ....bro there are only two ways man could attain righteousness ...through the law and through faith...so take that rubbish about "any works" to someone who don't know better. So when Paul says works of righteousness he is talking about law...not any works...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

[SUP]4[/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


try now to figure out how and when... the washing of regeneration and renewing of the HS happens....

lol.. now your forcing. Not by good deeds (which are righteous works) which we have done, but by his mercy, HE SAVED US, By doing good works? no. By being good? No. By being baptised, going to church taking communion, feeding the poor, loving our neighbor (anyone we come into contact with). no.

How? By the washing (baptism) and renewal (newbirth) of the HS It is Gods work, not ours.

God did all the work.

when?

Paul tells us over and over, even jesus did, Believe in the name of Jesus, Trust him, Have faith (we are justified by faith)

I can do all those good deeds, and have no faith in christ, even a non believer can do them, they are not what saves us, the blood of christ does.

 

[newbirth]

No, That is not what James was saying,

James is saying YOU BELIEVE, YOU DO WELL, EVEN DEMONS BELIEVE. but what good will it do them. Belief is not enough, it takes FAITH

He is talking to people who have a mental belief, but have no faith. He is telling them to prove their faith (to themselves, it does not good to prove it to us, we can not save them)

Again, SInce when does an omniscient God need proof if someones faith is real or not? why do you belittle God so much by saying he needs proof first?

what is written is what was said...where did you come up with... belief is not enough it takes faith...that is like saying faith is not enough it takes faith....of course belief is not enough....it takes works...that is what James is saying to you ........ James says faith without works is dead....he puts all under the same belief...and demons know more than you ...they were once in heaven...demons believe and tremble...............you believe and do nothing...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what is written is what was said...where did you come up with... belief is not enough it takes faith...that is like saying faith is not enough it takes faith....

Well if you would understand what true faith was. you would understand. You do not. thats your problem.

of course belief is not enough....it takes works...that is what James is saying to you ........ James says faith without works is dead....he puts all under the same belief...and demons know more than you ...they were once in heaven...demons believe and tremble...............you believe and do nothing...

lol.. Tell us all how much faith a dead faith is.. How much life does a dead faith have in it? (let me help you, you come across a dead body, how much life is in that body. what can it accomplish by itself)

Again (why do you refuse to answer) Why does God need you to prove your faith is real because HE SAVES YOU,, Is God limited in some way he can not know?

 

[mailmandan]

demons believe but have no works bro....that is what James says...you believe there is one God you do well...devils believe also and tremble...no works just like you.... but they tremble so that makes them better than you....if you believe Christ for your salvation your belief would result in obedience which means works...

Go back and read post #120 again in this thread. I already explained the difference between believing "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) and believing/trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation. Believing in Christ for salvation does result in obedience/works, yet believing/faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which follow are the fruit of salvation.

James 1:22-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Being a doer of the word (effect) is the result of being a believer (cause).

 

[newbirth]

lol.. now your forcing. Not by good deeds (which are righteous works) which we have done, but by his mercy, HE SAVED US, By doing good works? no. By being good? No. By being baptised, going to church taking communion, feeding the poor, loving our neighbor (anyone we come into contact with). no.

How? By the washing (baptism) and renewal (newbirth) of the HS It is Gods work, not ours.

God did all the work.

when?

Paul tells us over and over, even jesus did, Believe in the name of Jesus, Trust him, Have faith (we are justified by faith)

I can do all those good deeds, and have no faith in christ, even a non believer can do them, they are not what saves us, the blood of christ does.

you are rewriting the scripture...works of righteousness can only refer to the law...you want it to refer to all works....and it refers to the past...which we have done....not .....which we will do....Christ is not going to the cross every time someone comes to him...that is why we have to go to him and submit ourselves into his death through water baptism...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you are rewriting the scripture...works of righteousness can only refer to the law...

No, Your twisting, unless you think the only works of righteousness is of the law. What about other works? Paul said the word "law" when he meant law. he did not say it here, why?

you want it to refer to all works....and it refers to the past...which we have done....not .....which we will do....Christ is not going to the cross every time someone comes to him...that is why we have to go to him and submit ourselves into his death through water baptism...

He also said saved us (in the past)

The past salvation was not paid for by works(PAST), but God did the work. hE IS TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY SAVED, NOT THOSE TRYING TO GET SAVED.

You so focused on works, you do not see grace, or the fact that God did the work (washing and renewing)

And again you ignored the question.

WHY DOES GOD NEED PROOF OUR FAITH IS REAL, IS GOD LACKING?

 

[GuessWho]

yes, as apposed to have a false (dead) faith. which is no faith at all.

Paul taught the same faith James is, one which is active, and not dead.

James is rather admonishing people who claim to have faith in God (YHWH) and in the Lord Jesus Christ, but the way they live their lives shows exactly the opposite.

As for Paul, he is more focused in teaching and converting people from their form of religiosity to the new faith.

This new faith to which Paul wants people to convert is faith in YHWH, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and faith that He will come back (very soon) to establish His kingdom. Paul is almost always trying to make people live their lives as if they were already pre-tasting the very soon coming kingdom of God. See, in this matters, what Paul has to say about marriage. He is not asking people to do works of righteousness, but he expects that people are as excited as he is regarding the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Saint Paul lead a very ascetic life).

 

[GuessWho]

Which you cannot separate from the moral aspect of the Law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the Law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the Law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

So Paul did not merely say that we are not saved by specific works of the Law, but are saved by good works in general. He said saved through faith, not works; not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us; He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

See my post 126 in respect of the works of which Saint Paul was talking about.