Works can NEVER earn salvation

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Mar 14, 2011
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I have to laugh. One day one of these guys said to know the truth was so simple.
Just believe in Jesus and you have eternal life.

The conversation went on, and suddenly the gospel was so complex and wise us
foolish self righteous hypocrites could not understand it, it was beyond us.

Or even better we do not know what they believe because they never explained it.
So here are 3 different positions which cannot be in existance at the same time.
But when honesty kicks in some will admit they believe in passive faith, while we
believe in working faith. You then go a little deeper and Jesus has always been
about working faith, faith that creates change and action.

Some then admit this is true, but it is sanctification and not salvation. But the problem is
simple, without love in ones heart it is just ideas and theology, one day this way, the
next day another way.

And what is evil is to show these inconsistencies, in theology or in witness, or in sinning
and failing in our walk. It feels like shooting ducks in a bucket, but they will deny the
bucket, the water and the ducks, and that they said anything, and it is all lies and slander.

To me it does not matter, because it is worth discovering all the aspects, bringing them
into the light and seeing Jesus and His love working through it all, Amen.
You have not changed a bit
 
Mar 14, 2011
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it says they stopped: "such were some of you". are not anymore.

how were you an adulterer if you are still in it? i dont believe God is playing peek-a-boo with sins. cleanses them yet nobody is actually cleansed. that would be as useful as me pronouncing the world clean, yet everyone continues as before

if its like you said that they believed in Jesus and continued the same, then it wouldnt read "such were" but would read "such ARE"
It says they were these people, it never said they stopped the sins. It says their sins were washed,
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Been sorry with such rhetorical approach but I base my belief in the Bible in regards to repentance. Turning is changing your direction but repentance is changing your mind. If you may there is a difference between the two though may complement with one another. This what really "Thus saith the Lord through the prophet Jonah."

"...ignorance of the subject which is so dear
to Jesus and our faith, yet is talked about with such disdain it is shocking."

Well, since you brought about Jonah would you be willing start addressing it? I mean discuss it? Question for you to consider: Why scripture in Jonah uses different word about repentance though the other scripture you cited uses the word "relent" and turning?

BTW, this is what Jackson123 is using where I responded to and I think too there is an ignorance to the many people around the corner here in CC. Would you mind to be able to discuss the scripture or go straight, giving sense what the scripture says and out of scripture says only?

Thanks
Hi fred,

Jonah is quoted by Jesus as the example He was going to be to them.
Jonah three days in the whale, Jesus 3 days dead and rises again.
Forgiveness was given through acknowledgement of evil, showing remorse, stopping evil behaviour
and doing good, then hoping Gods judgement would be replaced by mercy.

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
Jon 3

So they repented of their sin. Pretty clear and straightforward.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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I had a boss once. In one meeting he agreed with one group.
In the next meeting he agreed with another group. Unfortunately for him some were
in both meetings so understood this guy knew nothing.

It gets comical when caught out, rather than coming clean and saying yep, we are not consistent
there is indignation, and aggression etc. Do they really think we do not see or know how the
game is played or taking these different contradictatory positions destroys the whole story.

Jesus told 7 parables where some seemed to participate yet ended up cast out and destroyed.
Time and again Jesus talks about cost, the difficulty, the price and the problems along the way.

So anyone who claims it is simple, guaranteed, no risk or failure, a luxury cruise and rest to put
your feet up, is literally whistling in the wind. Worse still words like love and transformation,
obedience and repentance are like the enemy, and those using them will be attacked using
everything they can muster to destroy them. And they do not know how to answer the questions,
just obtuse distractions and not addressing simple scripture that puts the points 100% clearly.

No drunkard will inherit the Kingdom. Do not eat with them, who call themselves brothers and
behave like this. 1 cor 5:11 Or showing the fruit of repentance after coming to faith, confirms the true nature
of the spiritual reality within. Acts 26:20

How these people manage to persuade believers that they know Jesus is a wonder.
It is because the elect are so open and loving they can exploit these very attributes and try and take
control, while never actually declaring where they stand or how it works out, just hopping between
discussions and dis-spiriting those they deem as their opponents. And ones like me, they would desire
to destroy, if they could, but Praise the Lord, His word is truth and stands against such onslaughts.
Amen
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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It says they were these people, it never said they stopped the sins. It says their sins were washed,
it says they were these people not are these people.

you are trying to say that God is cleaning people but they still do all the things listed? so God is very terrible and cleansing people and is playing peek-a-boo with sin pretending it doesnt exist?

sounds blasphemous.

if God cleanses why arent these people any better off? why doesnt it actually cleanse. manifestly.

@dcontroversal does it say "were" in the greek too? what am i missing.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Hi fred,

Jonah is quoted by Jesus as the example He was going to be to them.
Jonah three days in the whale, Jesus 3 days dead and rises again.
Forgiveness was given through acknowledgement of evil, showing remorse, stopping evil behaviour
and doing good, then hoping Gods judgement would be replaced by mercy.

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
Jon 3

So they repented of their sin. Pretty clear and straightforward.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Of course you are trying to conflate.

v.9 turn and repent, two words, meaning turn is a change from its direction "way" and repent is a changed of mind.
v.10 turned from their evil way meaning a change of direction
But when the scripture says God "repented" the scripture is clear, God change his mind of what he said before, on the things that he would do unto them.
Pretty clear to me.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Of course you are trying to conflate.

v.9 turn and repent, two words, meaning turn is a change from its direction "way" and repent is a changed of mind.
v.10 turned from their evil way meaning a change of direction
But when the scripture says God "repented" the scripture is clear, God change his mind of what he said before, on the things that he would do unto them.
Pretty clear to me.
wə·ni·ḥam relent Jonah 3:9
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

way·yin·nā·ḥem relented Exodus 32:14
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

yin·nā·ḥêm change their minds Exodus 13:17
17 for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

wə·ni·ḥam·tî I will relent Jeremiah 26:3
3 Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.

There is a difference is concepts here.
An evil deed is done which will bring judgement.
A warning is been given judgement will arrive unless active steps are taken to change present behaviour,
accept guilt for past behaviour and show sorrow for this situation that came about. These these things
together have been called repentance.

Another situation a course of action has been set. Thing change, and this course of action is changed.
The course of action was judgement, and the change was because of repentance by those judged, so
mercy was shown and God chose to relent on the judgement. This is called relenting.

A third situation was Israel changing their mind and returning to Egypt. This is a change of mind, but there
is no single word to convey change your mind, so translators often use the repent, but this is not actually appropriate.

So we are not conflating ideas, we are being clear about what is repentance from sin and what is changing your
mind about other intentions or actions. Repentance from sin is clear in scripture but obviously some do not agree.
I wonder if this is just the upgrade spirit believers?
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
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Usa
Are we righteous? OR DO WE PUT ON...HIS...RIGHTEOUSNESS! Are we born again? FOR GOD SO ...LOVED ...THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE THE ONLY PERFECT SACRIFICE ,OUR WAY TO SALVATION! Why were they first called" christians? BECAUSE THEY WERE....FOLLOWERS... OF CHRIST JESUS! Is there any other way to the Father? JESUS SAID I ...AM...THE TRUTH,THE WAY AND THE LIFE....NO...MAN COMETH INTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME! Do we just choose the ...life...we want?NO,THERE IS A PATTERN WE FOLLOW AND JESUS SAID....KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. Is being born again for everyone? YES,TO AS MANY THAT WILL COME,FOLLOW ME,FOR IT IS NOT HIS WILL THAT ......ANY....SHOULD PERISH! Do we have a chosen by God journey to walk? YES,THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD RIGHTLY DIVIDED IS ....OUR...ROADMAP!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,650
532
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wə·ni·ḥam relent Jonah 3:9
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

way·yin·nā·ḥem relented Exodus 32:14
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

yin·nā·ḥêm change their minds Exodus 13:17
17 for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

wə·ni·ḥam·tî I will relent Jeremiah 26:3
3 Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.

There is a difference is concepts here.
An evil deed is done which will bring judgement.
A warning is been given judgement will arrive unless active steps are taken to change present behaviour,
accept guilt for past behaviour and show sorrow for this situation that came about. These these things
together have been called repentance.

Another situation a course of action has been set. Thing change, and this course of action is changed.
The course of action was judgement, and the change was because of repentance by those judged, so
mercy was shown and God chose to relent on the judgement. This is called relenting.

A third situation was Israel changing their mind and returning to Egypt. This is a change of mind, but there
is no single word to convey change your mind, so translators often use the repent, but this is not actually appropriate.

So we are not conflating ideas, we are being clear about what is repentance from sin and what is changing your
mind about other intentions or actions. Repentance from sin is clear in scripture but obviously some do not agree.
I wonder if this is just the upgrade spirit believers?
Still turning and repent are not the same as per scripture says which is my point. Seems you're now going to a non- English which I am pretty not familiar.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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Still turning and repent are not the same as per scripture says which is my point. Seems you're now going to a non- English which I am pretty not familiar.
I use biblehub.com to get the greek and hebrew meaning of the verses.
It helps to see what the translators were dealing with and other places where the same word was
used. I am not a scholar, but often the conceptual approaches become clearer and somethings
appear that are not expected. God bless you
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
2,650
532
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Are we righteous? OR DO WE PUT ON...HIS...RIGHTEOUSNESS! Are we born again? FOR GOD SO ...LOVED ...THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE THE ONLY PERFECT SACRIFICE ,OUR WAY TO SALVATION! Why were they first called" christians? BECAUSE THEY WERE....FOLLOWERS... OF CHRIST JESUS! Is there any other way to the Father? JESUS SAID I ...AM...THE TRUTH,THE WAY AND THE LIFE....NO...MAN COMETH INTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME! Do we just choose the ...life...we want?NO,THERE IS A PATTERN WE FOLLOW AND JESUS SAID....KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. Is being born again for everyone? YES,TO AS MANY THAT WILL COME,FOLLOW ME,FOR IT IS NOT HIS WILL THAT ......ANY....SHOULD PERISH! Do we have a chosen by God journey to walk? YES,THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD RIGHTLY DIVIDED IS ....OUR...ROADMAP!
They were "called" Christians first in Antioch, they were given a nickname by the outsiders of the church.
Umm....something smells stinks from this post. You cannot follow to be born again. Christ came to seek and saved that which was lost....

Luke 19:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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I use biblehub.com to get the greek and hebrew meaning of the verses.
It helps to see what the translators were dealing with and other places where the same word was
used. I am not a scholar, but often the conceptual approaches become clearer and somethings
appear that are not expected. God bless you
Sorry man English KJV is alright with me. Perhaps your use of Hebrew or Greek may pollute the meaning of the clear words of God. My point you are only dealing with two, three or even one scholar often times do'nt agree with a clear teaching of the scriptures. No i am not saying we don't need them but i am emphasizing that if it scripture is already clear then there is no need to change/turn it unclear.

God bless
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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Still turning and repent are not the same as per scripture says which is my point. Seems you're now going to a non- English which I am pretty not familiar.
Repentance as I said before is a central them of Jesus.
Our spiritual dimension is also crucial to our faith.
The upgrade spirit believers seem though to want to undermine repentance and reconciliation.
And I do understand that continual condemnation of oneself is not a good position to be in.
Until on see Jesus's love and acceptance, His grace and overflowing kindness towards His people
as they fight and overcome their weaknesses looking to Him for support and strength.

What amazes me is how when things are feeling good we quickly rush off and do the wrong things,
not seeing our elation can be as big a trap as the issue we are grappling with. We appear to be built
to work and solve things, once we are not occupied, it quickly does astray. God bless you
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Of course you are trying to conflate.

v.9 turn and repent, two words, meaning turn is a change from its direction "way" and repent is a changed of mind.
v.10 turned from their evil way meaning a change of direction
But when the scripture says God "repented" the scripture is clear, God change his mind of what he said before, on the things that he would do unto them.
Pretty clear to me.
Much of the Old Covenant was “conditional.” If His people would do this, then God would do this; and if they did not, then God would do so and so.

A repenting God must be viewed as one that does what He intended, or else you have a God that obviously changes His mind, because He really isn’t omniscient, and is capable of “mistakes,” therefore not “perfect” as Satan asserts in the book of Job.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Sorry man English KJV is alright with me. Perhaps your use of Hebrew or Greek may pollute the meaning of the clear words of God. My point you are only dealing with two, three or even one scholar often times do'nt agree with a clear teaching of the scriptures. No i am not saying we don't need them but i am emphasizing that if it scripture is already clear then there is no need to change/turn it unclear.

God bless
Greek and hebrew polute the clear words of God.

Some of scripture is hebrew in origin, some arimaic, some greek, and some latin.
All of these produced what is the KJV in english.

And scripture is often not that clear, which this forum demonstrates.
People have read the bible their whole lives and still create different meanings.

My answer to this is to listen to all sides and then see where my heart lies before the Lord.
Personally the old english of the KJV is too removed for me to use easily so I use the NIV
or NET as my basic reference, with the others chipping in for focus on other aspects of areas
of interest. God bless you
 

Smooth

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Jul 22, 2019
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People have read the bible their whole lives and still create different meanings.

My answer to this is to listen to all sides and then see where my heart lies before the Lord.
So in other words, you yourself are creating different meanings. Thanks for clarifying your own indiscretions.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
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Usa
The Lord pulled me aside from cc after I began to let " self" engage in controversy with some differences of thoughts and interpertations. I learned during this time of study and prayer that I do not have to engage with certain ppl! I can post my own thoughts and move on. It is not important to me " your" rebukes", nor should mine be to you. If we hold fast,and stand firm in Jesus,heaven is big enough for all! Jesus Himself did not supply an answer to certain ppl. I follow His example!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Greek and hebrew polute the clear words of God.

Some of scripture is hebrew in origin, some arimaic, some greek, and some latin.
All of these produced what is the KJV in english.

And scripture is often not that clear, which this forum demonstrates.
People have read the bible their whole lives and still create different meanings.

My answer to this is to listen to all sides and then see where my heart lies before the Lord.
Personally the old english of the KJV is too removed for me to use easily so I use the NIV
or NET as my basic reference, with the others chipping in for focus on other aspects of areas
of interest. God bless you
Fredo said: Your use of Hebrew and Greek may pollute the clear words of God
FHS said: Greek and Hebrew polute the clear words of God.

I see the difference, As explain I am pointing on the lexicon you use while dependent on them instead of the Bible is to create the different meaning. I have explain Jonah3 you haven't. You just pull another scripture to support your opinion. You have' not answered my question if the two words "turn" and "repent" are similar? Because the Bible says they were not the same. No of course, I will not turn this one into a Bible Version issue.

Still I'll stick to the scripture in what it says.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Much of the Old Covenant was “conditional.” If His people would do this, then God would do this; and if they did not, then God would do so and so.

A repenting God must be viewed as one that does what He intended, or else you have a God that obviously changes His mind, because He really isn’t omniscient, and is capable of “mistakes,” therefore not “perfect” as Satan asserts in the book of Job.
Yep not to worry but my point is that Repentance is a change of mind where FHS tried to demolish the intended meaning. Because of that he creates his own meaning. Of course, God changes his mind on this particular text means or not to be viewed to negate his omniscience and when he does change his mind then he does change direction.

God bless
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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When it comes to the issue of salvation, mankind is weak, we cannot hold on but the good news we received and believed is that God is the one holding us, keeping us thus the assurance no matter what happens in the way we still with him.

Amen and to God be the glory!

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.