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S
so you are saying there are no proofs of god, is that right? that's what i'm trying to find out. if there are no proofs, only faith, then how do we determine if we are correct or not? maybe the muslim is correct, maybe the hindoo, maybe the mormon... is it all a matter of taste and opinion? isn't truth objective? doesn't knowledge require justification?
My apologies for not notating the Scripture reference I posted. It is proverbs 3:5.
Great verses you posted! Not sure if they have a bearing on what I said.
The world says "show me and I'll believe" God says "believe and I will show you".
You are a man. Your brain weighs about 3 lbs. How can you POSSIBLY expect to understand all the motives and plans OF THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE? Especially by leaning on YOUR understanding?
Let the Peace of our Lord and savior reign in your heart and trust in Him alone, and He will reveal Himself through His word, and other ways to you.
Great verses you posted! Not sure if they have a bearing on what I said.
The world says "show me and I'll believe" God says "believe and I will show you".
You are a man. Your brain weighs about 3 lbs. How can you POSSIBLY expect to understand all the motives and plans OF THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE? Especially by leaning on YOUR understanding?
Let the Peace of our Lord and savior reign in your heart and trust in Him alone, and He will reveal Himself through His word, and other ways to you.
T
What is there to be shocked about.
The actual authorship of many (most!) of the books in the canon is not known.
It is true that at some time in history books were attributed to various authors that may or may not accurately reflect their true authorship.
There is no deep, dark secret here and no conspiracy.
The Book of Hebrews has traditionally been attributed to Paul, but this is almost certainly incorrect since the style of prose and vocabulary is so different from any of the other Pauline epistles.
Most of the Gospels have had their authorship challenged at one time or another - at this point in time it seems that we may never unequivocally know who wrote them.
The situation only gets messier in the OT.
It does not change my regard for Scripture one bit.
The actual authorship of many (most!) of the books in the canon is not known.
It is true that at some time in history books were attributed to various authors that may or may not accurately reflect their true authorship.
There is no deep, dark secret here and no conspiracy.
The Book of Hebrews has traditionally been attributed to Paul, but this is almost certainly incorrect since the style of prose and vocabulary is so different from any of the other Pauline epistles.
Most of the Gospels have had their authorship challenged at one time or another - at this point in time it seems that we may never unequivocally know who wrote them.
The situation only gets messier in the OT.
It does not change my regard for Scripture one bit.
S
i agree it is common knowledge nowadays( easily accessible for who look anyway) but it does cast serious doubt upon the veracity of the text when you do not know who wrote it nor when. My regard for scriptures changed when I realized the gospels(and a good bunch of paul's letters and acts) where very unlikely to have been written by the apostle bearing their names, that's all. Who wrote the gospels? Eyewitness with a fresh memory of the events? Seems unlikely. So how is this account reliable? you tell me.
S
I have read Strobel. How to put this tactfully? Hum, don't think i can. Strobel is a joke and there is very little that is factual in his book. If that kind of arguments are enough for you, then you are much more credulous than i can accept to be. critical thinking is a valuable skill and christians should be good critical thinkers too, of this i am convinced. to scorn critical thinking is to invite error because the only way to avoid error is to detect it.
S
[when somebody like snookman says he "knows" Jesus without need for proofs, how does that "know" has anything to do with the concept of "justified belief" that episthemologist talk about?
faith is not knowledge, they are different things, different words, different concepts.
the way i see it, there is belief in (X) and then if there are proofs that that belief is true, then (X) is a knowledge, and if there is no proof, then we take (X) on faith. Faith is on the opposite spectrum of knowledge on the sliding scale of beliefs.
i have come to a point where faith is not enough, I want knowledge. i'm struggling to find true knowledge in christianity and you guys are really not making a good case for it here.
faith is not knowledge, they are different things, different words, different concepts.
the way i see it, there is belief in (X) and then if there are proofs that that belief is true, then (X) is a knowledge, and if there is no proof, then we take (X) on faith. Faith is on the opposite spectrum of knowledge on the sliding scale of beliefs.
i have come to a point where faith is not enough, I want knowledge. i'm struggling to find true knowledge in christianity and you guys are really not making a good case for it here.
S
i never said i wanted to understand "all the motives and plans of the creator of the universe". where did you get that notion? i just said that reason should be able to help us determine what God wants and expects from us. so i would know what to do. as it is i have no way to determine what god wants or expect from me. i surmise that if god gave us a brain , presumably it was so we used it.
trust, hope and faith are not knowledge, they are trust, hope and faith.
trust, hope and faith are not knowledge, they are trust, hope and faith.
Brother.
I have not read all of your comments here on this thread, nor is this comment intended to be critical of any position you may be debating here, but what you are saying in this comment causes me some concern.
Depending on OUR "reasoning," to find what Gods will is for us will never work. We MUST depend on the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to reveal Gods will for us to us. The wisdom (reasoning) of man will NEVER compare to the guidance from the Holy Spirit.
Rather than seek "reasoning," pray for guidance. (just saying)
I have not read all of your comments here on this thread, nor is this comment intended to be critical of any position you may be debating here, but what you are saying in this comment causes me some concern.
Depending on OUR "reasoning," to find what Gods will is for us will never work. We MUST depend on the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit to reveal Gods will for us to us. The wisdom (reasoning) of man will NEVER compare to the guidance from the Holy Spirit.
Rather than seek "reasoning," pray for guidance. (just saying)
A
It's not the Bible or God who is confusing but people who are confused.
Abraham lived in a time when child sacrifice was the normal mode.
We still live in a time where witch doctors and Satanist kill and eat babies (just read a paper written in 2000 where someone admited to eating human flesh and watching a boy's body roast over a fire as demons danced around) Worshippers of Shiva are depicted wearing human skulls. At one point the world was so corrupt and evil God destroyed everyone but Noah and his family with a flood.
God promised Abraham that through Isaac (not Ishmael) the Messiah would come. The promised Seed.
God is able to raise people from the dead and by faith Abraham offered up Isaac.
However it was to show that God is not like those fake demonic gods of other nations. He does not take life from His people. He gives it.
The story of Abraham and Isaac when held to the practices of the people surrounding them show God's nature of love and life versus death and destruction called for by other "gods" and idols.
The old testament should be understood through Jesus words and with an understanding that God did not approve of everything that Israel did. We should learn the Spirit of the commandments and not just the letter of the law.
Abraham lived in a time when child sacrifice was the normal mode.
We still live in a time where witch doctors and Satanist kill and eat babies (just read a paper written in 2000 where someone admited to eating human flesh and watching a boy's body roast over a fire as demons danced around) Worshippers of Shiva are depicted wearing human skulls. At one point the world was so corrupt and evil God destroyed everyone but Noah and his family with a flood.
God promised Abraham that through Isaac (not Ishmael) the Messiah would come. The promised Seed.
God is able to raise people from the dead and by faith Abraham offered up Isaac.
However it was to show that God is not like those fake demonic gods of other nations. He does not take life from His people. He gives it.
The story of Abraham and Isaac when held to the practices of the people surrounding them show God's nature of love and life versus death and destruction called for by other "gods" and idols.
The old testament should be understood through Jesus words and with an understanding that God did not approve of everything that Israel did. We should learn the Spirit of the commandments and not just the letter of the law.
A
How very strange your words are.
Who do you have faith in? What kind of knowledge do you seek?
There is worldly knowledge and wisdom from above.
Heavenly wisdom is better than 10,000 PHDs, even if it looks to be foolishness to the gentiles.
I have faith in Jesus work on the cross for my salvation.
I have knowledge of God as my Heavenly father, just as you have knowledge of your earthly father.
He is there to speak with and can explain what the Bible says.
Sometimes He tells me that I dont need to know that part yet and focus on these scriptures instead because I will need them for an encounter I will have with someone later that day.
God teaches His children what we need to know. We have His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us.
I trust in God because I have seen the truth of His word and how it has changed my life and the lives of those around me.
I know that the Bible is a love letter to His people, but no subsitute to prayer and being in His presence.
I am sorry if the many differing answers confuse you. Perhaps you should pray and seek God's answer instead?
You assume eye witness accounts are more accurate,i suggest you speak with a police officer and see if your assumptions are based on fact.
We believe the Bible to be written and complied by Holy Spirit lead men seeking God's will.
No matter what language it is translated into, without the Holy Spirit, the Bible will remain veiled to readers. Like the old testament prophecies concerning Jesus were veiled to the disciples until He removed it after His resurrection.
Who do you have faith in? What kind of knowledge do you seek?
There is worldly knowledge and wisdom from above.
Heavenly wisdom is better than 10,000 PHDs, even if it looks to be foolishness to the gentiles.
I have faith in Jesus work on the cross for my salvation.
I have knowledge of God as my Heavenly father, just as you have knowledge of your earthly father.
He is there to speak with and can explain what the Bible says.
Sometimes He tells me that I dont need to know that part yet and focus on these scriptures instead because I will need them for an encounter I will have with someone later that day.
God teaches His children what we need to know. We have His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us.
I trust in God because I have seen the truth of His word and how it has changed my life and the lives of those around me.
I know that the Bible is a love letter to His people, but no subsitute to prayer and being in His presence.
I am sorry if the many differing answers confuse you. Perhaps you should pray and seek God's answer instead?
You assume eye witness accounts are more accurate,i suggest you speak with a police officer and see if your assumptions are based on fact.
We believe the Bible to be written and complied by Holy Spirit lead men seeking God's will.
No matter what language it is translated into, without the Holy Spirit, the Bible will remain veiled to readers. Like the old testament prophecies concerning Jesus were veiled to the disciples until He removed it after His resurrection.
S
Thanks you all for your advice and comments, I really appreciate it.
What you are saying is not resonating with me though, I can't help it. I do not and have never felt what you describe as the Holy spirit, and praying doesn't seem to help. Maybe I'm on the wrong forum, I feel like I stepped through the looking glass here. Understand though that I do not mean to offend.
I'm questioning the meaning of faith, and of the terms you use like "guidance from the Holy spirit", "wisdom from above", "trust in the Lord", "accepting Jesus"... It seems like a cop out to me, a way to reach a conclusion about the meaning of it all, without having to deal with facts and reasons and evidence. You are telling me "faith" trumps "wordly knowledge". To me it sounds like "believing without suficient evidence " trumps "evidence based knowledge" to determine what is true. I'm utterly baffled by this. you are talking about some kind of "subjective truth". Have any of you ever studied any philosophy, have any exposure to epistemology, psychology, cognitive sciences? Nobody in his right mind can advocate that subsituting emotions for evidence is going to lead to truth, the risk of error is tremendous.
I cannot help but think that what you are saying boils down to a very subjective conclusion, nothing objective, concrete, nothing certain or even probable. For example, if faith, "wisdom from above" was in anyway reliable, I would expect everybody to agree about the important stuff, because it would be obvious to anybody who honestly asks.
If God wants everyone to be a good christian, because christianity is the one true faith, why would God allow 40 000 different christian denominations, not counting the various jewish sects, the mormons, the jehova's witnesses, the muslims...Why would God give all those admirers of Him, according to THEIR testimony, spiritual experiences and the urge to write down or re interpret scriptures in ways that would confirm their own faith tradition and send them on that trajectory?
"Wisdom from above" is too vague, too subjective, to open to interpretation to have any value, to be of any help to find truth, how else do we explain the fact that there is more than even one church?
Surely to know we are right, we need to have more than a very subjective "guidance from the Holy spirit" to ground our worldviews, to acertain they are correct... if a vague subjective feeling is what it takes to "know" the truth, then anything goes, who's to say the hindoo, the muslim, the jew or the mormon are not the ones favored by God? If we're all saying: "we're the ones who got it right because God tells us so in our heart" then frankly there is no way to determine who is right and anything goes. That's a huge problem, don't you see it?
What you are saying is not resonating with me though, I can't help it. I do not and have never felt what you describe as the Holy spirit, and praying doesn't seem to help. Maybe I'm on the wrong forum, I feel like I stepped through the looking glass here. Understand though that I do not mean to offend.
I'm questioning the meaning of faith, and of the terms you use like "guidance from the Holy spirit", "wisdom from above", "trust in the Lord", "accepting Jesus"... It seems like a cop out to me, a way to reach a conclusion about the meaning of it all, without having to deal with facts and reasons and evidence. You are telling me "faith" trumps "wordly knowledge". To me it sounds like "believing without suficient evidence " trumps "evidence based knowledge" to determine what is true. I'm utterly baffled by this. you are talking about some kind of "subjective truth". Have any of you ever studied any philosophy, have any exposure to epistemology, psychology, cognitive sciences? Nobody in his right mind can advocate that subsituting emotions for evidence is going to lead to truth, the risk of error is tremendous.
I cannot help but think that what you are saying boils down to a very subjective conclusion, nothing objective, concrete, nothing certain or even probable. For example, if faith, "wisdom from above" was in anyway reliable, I would expect everybody to agree about the important stuff, because it would be obvious to anybody who honestly asks.
If God wants everyone to be a good christian, because christianity is the one true faith, why would God allow 40 000 different christian denominations, not counting the various jewish sects, the mormons, the jehova's witnesses, the muslims...Why would God give all those admirers of Him, according to THEIR testimony, spiritual experiences and the urge to write down or re interpret scriptures in ways that would confirm their own faith tradition and send them on that trajectory?
"Wisdom from above" is too vague, too subjective, to open to interpretation to have any value, to be of any help to find truth, how else do we explain the fact that there is more than even one church?
Surely to know we are right, we need to have more than a very subjective "guidance from the Holy spirit" to ground our worldviews, to acertain they are correct... if a vague subjective feeling is what it takes to "know" the truth, then anything goes, who's to say the hindoo, the muslim, the jew or the mormon are not the ones favored by God? If we're all saying: "we're the ones who got it right because God tells us so in our heart" then frankly there is no way to determine who is right and anything goes. That's a huge problem, don't you see it?
this explain a lot of things
A
That you don't know God and have never heard from the Holy Spirit? Yes it is evident it's a big problem.
It is evident you don't understand faith because it's not just feelings or subjective.
You just look at the facts of the different religions...do you believe in a works based gospel or a grace based gospel?
Or do you even believe in God at all?
Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Mormons and even some people claiming to be Christian believe in a set of laws or sutras that will lead people to enlightenment or right relationship with God. They all boil down to a works based gospel that enslaved people to their sin and striving for their own righteousness.
Jesus came into the world and brought the Gospel of grace through faith in His redeeming work upon the cross. Most people will think it foolish but for those who believe it is salvation. God sends His Holy Spirit to teach His children the rest.
It's no more subjective than if someone walked up and Gibbs slapped you on the head.
You can seek to analyze it and take it apart, ...
It is evident you don't understand faith because it's not just feelings or subjective.
You just look at the facts of the different religions...do you believe in a works based gospel or a grace based gospel?
Or do you even believe in God at all?
Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Mormons and even some people claiming to be Christian believe in a set of laws or sutras that will lead people to enlightenment or right relationship with God. They all boil down to a works based gospel that enslaved people to their sin and striving for their own righteousness.
Jesus came into the world and brought the Gospel of grace through faith in His redeeming work upon the cross. Most people will think it foolish but for those who believe it is salvation. God sends His Holy Spirit to teach His children the rest.
It's no more subjective than if someone walked up and Gibbs slapped you on the head.
You can seek to analyze it and take it apart, ...
A
1 Corinthians: 1. 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29. That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. -
**** posted for my brothers and sisters in Christ.****
Will pray for you Simeon.
**** posted for my brothers and sisters in Christ.****
Will pray for you Simeon.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith has its sure evidence, it is the one you hoped for.
Example:
You post this thread that you know someone will interact, because many interacts in your posts thus this serves evidence of what you long for a discussion...
Faith has its sure evidence, it is the one you hoped for.
Example:
You post this thread that you know someone will interact, because many interacts in your posts thus this serves evidence of what you long for a discussion...