Complex Issue-Transgender

[SarahM777]

AT Sarah I did at one point actually struggle with a desire to undergo gender reassignment, but whether I did or didn't doesn't qualify any more or less to speak on this matter from a strictly biblical perspective. Now concerning transgenders you ask if it is wrong to correct something that is a birth defect. Gender is not a birth defect. If you were born a genetic male but desire or feel more inclined to act as a female the issues of identity your is one that can only truly be repaired by finding a new identity in Christ. For all that we think we are should be surrendered and laid down at the foot of the cross to find our identity in Christ. Our masculinity or femininity can only be reclaimed and restored by seeking who we are in Christ. What we are inclined towards does not define us. Some are more incline to lie than others. They must reject that and reclaim who they are in Christ. We all as a result of the fall have a broken and imperfect view of humanity and as a result a broken sexuality and perverse view on gender identity and gender roles. This can only be brought to restitution under the mind of Christ.

Been there done that. If we really wanted to we could convince ourselves that we are turnips. But the question that is not answered is can we really know what is inside that person by just taking a look on the outside? Can you say that there isn't something inside that person that would cause this? Can you say with all certainty that there isn't something physical? Are you aware of this they have done post mortems on both natural males and females and there is a portion of the brain that is different in size? They also have done them on male transsexuals and what they have found is that part of the brain is the same size as it is in natural females. Does this point to a fact that it may be physical? And what about those dealing with intersexed conditions? Is it possible that those may be far wider then we know at this point,it is possible that those dealing with transsexuality actually have an intersexed condition? Can anyone say for sure?


If a person has undergone major transformitive surgery that is irreversable then while there situation poses difficulty it is not without hope. It is difficult to say how they should proceed specifically in regards to relationships. Surely they are genetically male and to engage in relationships with another is homosexuality. This is clearly sin. If they are female in appearance and have transitioned their sexual organs it wouldn't be wise of them to engage in relations with a woman because it corrupts the witness and gives the appearance of email and can also cause emotional and sexual confusion for all parties involved. While it would seem reasonable for two transgendered persons who have transitioned to opposite genders to have a relationship we still have the obvious difficulties of God's purpose in marriage. Neither party can truly fulfill their God given gender roles without confusion. I would say that ultimately celibacy would be the best option. However there have been several cases of transgendered persons who transitioned back to their original gender after conversion. That would be the most advisable. At the end of the day we have to realize that these difficulties occur as a result of our falleness and though God is sovereign these are the situations which occur when God turns us over to our debased minds to fulfill our lusts. We end up predicaments outside of God's prescriptive will.

]I have not said that once the surgery has been done that a male to female should go out and marry a natural woman. All I have said is that marriage for a male to female can only be with a female to male. Both have the operations,both are still coming from the other side. And where in that would they be committing sins of homosexuality?

Now in the case of intersexed individuals that is much different from transexualism(or transgenderism). I do feel that the complexities posed by the intersexed do not have to be ignored however thy are quite difficult to determin dogma concerning them. If we are honest we have absolutely nothing dogmatic from scripture concerning the issue(although some have applied the situation of a eunuch). I think that intersexed individuals have to embrace the very same Gospel that the relationship aspects of the intersexed ae not without many controversies and much lack of clarity.

And neither do we have anything dogmatic about transsexuality. I never will say that one should jump right in and go out and have the surgery. Those of us dealing with this must seek God on this so that we can know the truth. It is in His truth that we will be set. They are those who believe they are but are not. Some have rejected that which God has given them,some is because or rebellion,some is because of severe abuse,and others do have it and it's real. But only God can see what is inside the person and He knows where we need to repent and where we need to be healed,and that has to be in seeking Him and letting Him speak to our hearts and minds. And letting Him confirm these things otherwise we will end up in a place that we do not want to go.

 

[Agricola]

I will state again on this thread, that there are a number of reasons why people undergo transgender reassignment. There are a tiny number of people who are genuinally born with the wrong sexual organs and it was for these people that the procedure was created. However many people are unhappy with thier lives, through things such as bullying and environemnt they are in. Many people then think they will be happier as a member of the oppostie sex, thus begins the whole false and miss-diagnosis, combined with the philosophy of the medical proffession that if something will make a person happy and less depressed it will be supported. Therefore we end up with thousands of people each year changing sex simply out of a state of mind and nothing else.

 

[SarahM777]

Just a quick question,wasn't part of when Jesus confronted the Pharisees,didn't they also at times say to Him something like this Why are you hanging around with them? They are unclean,they are sinners,you are defiling yourself by being with them. Didn't He say to them this

Matthew 9

9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

And did He not also say this


Luke 4

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

 

[BarlyGurl]

Just a quick question,wasn't part of when Jesus confronted the Pharisees,didn't they also at times say to Him something like this Why are you hanging around with them? They are unclean,they are sinners,you are defiling yourself by being with them. Didn't He say to them this

Matthew 9

9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

And did He not also say this


Luke 4

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Yes Sara... those are Jesus words... so what is your point?? I am looking at those versus and wondering why a "STRUGGLE" still exists for you other than obstinately clinging to wrong thinking?? Through Christ you can be set free, unshackled, have your sight (the way you look at things including mentally) fully restored... so what is the problem. The scriptures also say... by two or three witnesses let every word be established, I see no one accusing you... but I do see a compassionate EXBI explaining full restoration and myself and others in agreement with that. It appears to me you WANT that, but haven't been able to affect it for yourself... do you know what the problem is?? I am quite confident MOST everyone here wants for you to receive the healing available through CHrist alone.

 

[SarahM777]

Yes Sara... those are Jesus words... so what is your point?? I am looking at those versus and wondering why a "STRUGGLE" still exists for you other than obstinately clinging to wrong thinking?? Through Christ you can be set free, unshackled, have your sight (the way you look at things including mentally) fully restored... so what is the problem. The scriptures also say... by two or three witnesses let every word be established, I see no one accusing you... but I do see a compassionate EXBI explaining full restoration and myself and others in agreement with that. It appears to me you WANT that, but haven't been able to affect it for yourself... do you know what the problem is?? I am quite confident MOST everyone here wants for you to receive the healing available through CHrist alone.

Again how do you know that it's not physical? Can you say with certainty that because of sin,chemicals,and hormones in the food supply that it can not happen? Can you see the person as God sees them and not just the outward appearance? He has already shown me it's physical and He has confirmed it many times over. I am to wait for His timing and He will heal me in His way. He has already told me no when I asked Him to make mentally as I am physically,He told me I was asking for the wrong thing. He has already shown me it's my body and my heart and mind are clean before Him on this. He has given me lines I can not cross. I will be as He intended me to be but I am NOT to seek it through human hands.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Again how do you know that it's not physical? Can you say with certainty that because of sin,chemicals,and hormones in the food supply that it can not happen? Can you see the person as God sees them and not just the outward appearance? He has already shown me it's physical and He has confirmed it many times over. I am to wait for His timing and He will heal me in His way. He has already told me no when I asked Him to make mentally as I am physically,He told me I was asking for the wrong thing. He has already shown me it's my body and my heart and mind are clean before Him on this. He has given me lines I can not cross. I will be as He intended me to be but I am NOT to seek it through human hands.

I am going to tread very carefully here because I happen to think that there are certain PERSONAL DETAILS which should not be disclosed on a public thread under the GUISE of Family Discussion. I think you might be contradicting yourself, you have already corrected my vocabulary and I seem to recall alluded yourself to the "transgender" sort of person vs the hermaphrodite sort of person... in those terms CONCLUSIVELY transgender is a MENTAL issue and hermaphrodism is a physical issue. You can keep banging your drum about sin and a tainted food supply all you want. I am going to tell you that GOD does not look at any person who has female DNA and say "oh gosh I see your inner person is MALE...whoops" or visa versa. IMO, you are profoundly mistaken if you think God is going to transform you into a man... and that mistake is exactly what is keeping you shackled to your problem. The scripture is VERY CLEAR about sexual behavior AND identity AND deformity... God does not change... ever. I do acknowledge and applaud your willingness to embrace the scripture regarding sexual purity and that surgical alteration is not an option either. I do want of suggest you tread very carefully yourself in promoting the "unseen physical aspect" you have mentioned more than once in these coinciding threads... they are outside the boundaries of scripture and can lead others astray.

 

[SarahM777]

I am going to tread very carefully here because I happen to think that there are certain PERSONAL DETAILS which should not be disclosed on a public thread under the GUISE of Family Discussion. I think you might be contradicting yourself, you have already corrected my vocabulary and I seem to recall alluded yourself to the "transgender" sort of person vs the hermaphrodite sort of person... in those terms CONCLUSIVELY transgender is a MENTAL issue and hermaphrodism is a physical issue. You can keep banging your drum about sin and a tainted food supply all you want. I am going to tell you that GOD does not look at any person who has female DNA and say "oh gosh I see your inner person is MALE...whoops" or visa versa. IMO, you are profoundly mistaken if you think God is going to transform you into a man... and that mistake is exactly what is keeping you shackled to your problem. The scripture is VERY CLEAR about sexual behavior AND identity AND deformity... God does not change... ever. I do acknowledge and applaud your willingness to embrace the scripture regarding sexual purity and that surgical alteration is not an option either. I do want of suggest you tread very carefully yourself in promoting the "unseen physical aspect" you have mentioned more than once in these coinciding threads... they are outside the boundaries of scripture and can lead others astray.

You are right about not going any further on the personal details. I can say this though. The Lord has brought me a very long way so far and He is not done with me yet. The closer I get the further away I realize I was when He found me. He has dealt with me on the fact that I have hurt others because of this,He has had to deal with me on anger,bitterness,envy,rage and jealousy. It is a wonder that I am even still alive. I have done a lot of things that I am not proud of because of it. He took me through six months of learning how to forgive others. Those are the things that will eat us up alive if we don't deal with them.

 

[meggars]

rhis is a really thorny issue what about people born with both sexes? it does happen, what would a person like that do?

You're speaking of Hermaphrodites how rather than someone transgendered who doesn't identify with their natually assigned parts for whatever reason. Scientifically speaking, while some may be born with both sets of parts, one set will be basically vestigial in nature in that it is not fully developed or functional. This will depend on what the DNA says the person is. In most cases the individual will still be either male or female, chromasomally speaking.

 

[SarahM777]

You're speaking of Hermaphrodites how rather than someone transgendered who doesn't identify with their natually assigned parts for whatever reason. Scientifically speaking, while some may be born with both sets of parts, one set will be basically vestigial in nature in that it is not fully developed or functional. This will depend on what the DNA says the person is. In most cases the individual will still be either male or female, chromasomally speaking.

But you also have those that can look quite normal outwardly but internally they can have a chromosome anomaly that may or may not be caught till much later in life. So how does one see a person with a 47XXY or mosaic chromosome anomaly? That is their DNA. Can you say by that,that they are male or female? And that anomaly s far more common then most realize.


This is just one that is known,

Wikipedia

Klinefelter syndrome or Klinefelter's syndrome, also 47,XXY or XXY syndrome, is a genetic disorder in which there is at least one extra X chromosome to a standard human male karyotype, for a total of 47 chromosomes rather than the 46 found in genetically normal humans.[1] While females have an XX chromosomal makeup, and males an XY, individuals with Klinefelter syndrome have at least two X chromosomes and at least one Y chromosome.[2] Because of the extra chromosome, individuals with the condition are usually referred to as "XXY males", or "47,XXY males".[3]
This chromosome constitution (karyotype) exists in roughly between 1:500 to 1:1000 live male births[4][5] but many of these people may not show symptoms. If the physical traits associated with the syndrome become apparent, they normally appear after the onset of puberty.[6]
In humans, 47,XXY is the most common sex chromosome aneuploidy in males[7] and the second most common condition caused by the presence of extra chromosomes. Other mammals also have the XXY syndrome, including mice.[8]
Principal effects include hypogonadism and reduced fertility. A variety of other physical and behavioural differences and problems are common, though severity varies and many XXY boys have few detectable symptoms.

There are many variances within the XXY population, just as within the 46,XY population. While it is possible to characterise XXY males with certain body types and physical characteristics, that in itself should not be the method of identification as to whether or not someone has XXY. The only reliable method of identification is karyotype testing. The degree to which XXY males are affected, both physically and developmentally, differs widely from person to person.

If this is known as a medical fact,is it not possible that they may know that there is something not quite right about their bodies and it' not always due to mental and emotional issues?

 

[SarahM777]

Is the sin in having to deal with it or is the sin what comes out of it? The thing comes down to what is the truth of what we are dealing with? If the sin is that we are lying to ourselves because we have rejected what God has given us,(that does happen because you do have those that after having the surgery they find they were wrong and then they will try to reverse it) then you have the second group those who were badly abused. Part of the problem is that these two issues are not dealt with. Our God is a God of truth and He is not the author of confusion. In these two the issue is the lie that has been told to themselves,and it is allowing God to get to the heart of the matter,healing will only come when one is dealing with the truth. The first issue has to be knowing the truth.

Those dealing with the physical part have different issues because it is real,it is the truth and even though they have to deal with it God says "Be ye Holy for I am Holy" It does not give us license to walk in sin. So what does that mean? We are told we are not to sin nor are we to cause someone else to sin by what we do. We by definition would be eunuchs. The question would be why? Where in God's eyes does He draw the line by His definition of homosexual and lesbian relationships,and not by our definitions? And if one is intersexed,can it be seen that you would be harming another by putting them into a situation that would cause them harm,would you be causing them to question themselves and causing them to sin? Too often it is all about us and about what we do with it and not how it affects someone else.

 

[LucasEB]

Think about it like this. If I alter a Toyota with different body kits and make it look like a Ferrari it doesn't become an authentic Ferrari. At the very core it it is a Toyota. it was designed as a Toyotaand all the external modifications don't change that.

Yes you are right. But what about if that Toyotas engine contained every single component of that of a Ferrari? Would it still be a Toyota? What if you had told people that your "Toyota" engine contained 800 HP, but nobody believed you. You proceeded to get physically and emotionally harassed for expressing only the truth?
This is a difficult anology I have used.. But in my opinion God did not put you on this Earth, and give you the gift of life to be miserable. I believe that if your condition was the source of pain and grief to he point where you no longer want to live... It isn't what I would call "okay". But you are Gods child and he still loves.you unconditionally.

 

[HEknowsme]

In Psalm 139, we learn that God fashions each one of us.“For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Ipraise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. . . . My frame was nothidden from you when I was made in the secret place. . . . your eyes saw myunformed body” (verses 13-16). God’s creation of each individual must surelyinclude His designation of gender/sex. His wonderful work leaves no room formistakes; no one is born with the “wrong body.”

In the Law, transvestism / transvestitism was specificallyforbidden: “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’sclothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this” Deuteronomy 22:5
Going further into the truth IF this person who is Transgendered moves into Salvation , the scripture says in

[h=3]Romans 8[/h]English Standard Version (ESV)

[h=3]Life in the Spirit[/h]8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life has set you[SUP][b][/SUP] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[SUP][c][/SUP] he condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. [SUP]6[/SUP]For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
So, the scripture points out that we cannot please God in the flesh.
Again in Ephesians 4:17-24

17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!—21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,6 which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
You must put off the old and put on the new. The new is the inner man changed , no longer living in the lie ... Change the physical form if he or she can but if not to remain celibate and watch Christ move in their lives.

 

[hospitalpharmacist]

I think that our body is the temple of God and as God gave us life, each kind of mutilation or other we do on our body is a sin. However as any other sin we can ask to be forgiven by God and be saved. For the second question I don't have a clear answer to give you. I think that love is love; there are homosexual animals too so why shouldn't exist homosexual humans?
Hope this help
Cris

 

[HEknowsme]

Chris
This is true , we ask for forgiveness and Believing we receive this, BUT Jesus says go and sin NO MORE.

 

[hope36523]

i am not sure on this issue but will keep you in my prayors

 

[Cino]

A complex issue, but what do we say about people who are gay that want to become Christians? If a gay person becomes a Christian, he or she should then give up their lifestyle as being gay. If a transgender wants to be a Christian, they too should sacrifice and be what God made them and how they were born. You must turn the clock back. I do not believe it is a physical birth defect, but something in the mind. The same for gay people. So Christians must renew their minds. Same as if a prostitute wants to become a Christian. That person must renew their mind and stop their sin. A transgender then must renew their mind, and go back to how God made them. They must have more faith in God and deny theirselves, dies to themselves daily, and live a life that God would want them to live.

 

[retro]

A complex issue, but what do we say about people who are gay that want to become Christians? If a gay person becomes a Christian, he or she should then give up their lifestyle as being gay. If a transgender wants to be a Christian, they too should sacrifice and be what God made them and how they were born. You must turn the clock back. I do not believe it is a physical birth defect, but something in the mind. The same for gay people. So Christians must renew their minds. Same as if a prostitute wants to become a Christian. That person must renew their mind and stop their sin. A transgender then must renew their mind, and go back to how God made them. They must have more faith in God and deny theirselves, dies to themselves daily, and live a life that God would want them to live.

You have little insight on this matter and are in no position to judge.

God certainly appears to care more about our treatment and compassion for others than our choice of gender..

 

[Cino]

Sodom and Gomorrah were full of gay men and God destroyed that city because if it's sin. I am as much qualified and in position to judge this subject as any other Christian. I am a Christian, and I am telling what God does not like. And God does not like transgenders. Our treatment and compassion for others will not get them into Heaven unless we tell them to turn from their sin and repent. THAT is compassion of other... leading them out of their sin to Christ. NOT accepting what they are or who they are. You must tell them the truth, as the truth will set them free and save them. Not cover up things and put a bandaid on it to try to make it better.

 

[isaria]

Hermaphrodite is not just animal or plant but can also come in human format.
Could a hermaphrodite then choose which sex they rather be with
man for woman side and woman for man side of them.
If this is how God made them and they can be heterosexual in testings and strong in balance point "9" in sex.

I like the thought of not having so much plastic surgery for people and it is very sad to see so much plastic surgery for the reasons they are had.
You see documentaries people become addicted to it and looks what they really need is change on the "inside" so to say and Jesus understanding guidance and change may be better than all the surgery in world.
A inner beauty and at peace with ones gender and sex with in and with out.

I have heard people say "i feel like a man in a womans body" or woman in mans body.
May be that is a problem with in and as Jesus cast out un pure spirits may be a similar action taken to "feel one self " again.

For the pure energy and a balance.

It can be expensive to do reverse surgery and may be they can not afford it but may be able seek help from government funding to pay for it depending on the situation and how the first surgery was conducted.
How do they feel in the body after they found God?
They might not feel natural and good in the body any more as they did at first.
Do they want their body back they once had?
Some drs do loans that you could pay them a little every month for the reverse surgery if one could not afford it.
He /she may like reverse surgery to feel self again and may be the sexuality will by Gods grace be restored and healed and they will in future have a rich love life with the real them in meat, spirit, mind and soul etc.

Many parents encourage their children to explore feminine side and masculine side but to find and know who they are and a balance be conscious of what they are doing and they do so with guidance and it is in no way being homosexual but getting to know yourself deeply and exploring sex.

 

[lcerveny]

I believe God loves the sinner but hates the sin. To try to figure out if he/she should go back to original gender is not up to us to decide. It is a topic I wish we didn't have to address. I don't believe people are born gay! That would be like saying that God made a mistake....which he does not! I think this world will see stranger things like this in the near future. It doesn't help when you have Hollywood that has to have gay people in every TV show/movie.
I think a person who has a sex change is so very lost. Think about that for a moment............changing genders? Who has messed this person's thinking up? They were NOT born that way????