Depression and suicide
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OSAS doesn't apply, they are apples and oranges. OSAS says that once you accept Christ, there is NOTHING you can do to loose your salvation. Actually there's only one thing you can do to lose it. Just as it took a conscious decision to accept Him, I would take a conscious decision to reject Him to lose it.
What you are thinking of is works. Works do not get us in or out. Murderers, adulterers, et all who accept Christ's forgiveness are in. End o' story.
BUT we will be judged and receive rewards or loss according to our works. So while murderers, adulterers, et all will get in, they will still be held accountable for their actions. That's the distinction you aren't getting.
Apples and oranges. They each have their place but they are not interchangeable.
What you are thinking of is works. Works do not get us in or out. Murderers, adulterers, et all who accept Christ's forgiveness are in. End o' story.
BUT we will be judged and receive rewards or loss according to our works. So while murderers, adulterers, et all will get in, they will still be held accountable for their actions. That's the distinction you aren't getting.
Apples and oranges. They each have their place but they are not interchangeable.
C
You're saying that, even if they continue murdering and commiting adultery after they "accept Christ's forgiveness" they are 'in"?
You two have got to be kidding me. I can't believe I'm hearing this 'Amen' from you especially, soccermom.
Is this what you teach your children and if any of your class kids ask, this is how you'd witness to them?
Soccermom - do you think that because you're a 'teacher' that that gives you the credentials to judge other's salvation?
Of the 1,000s of members and/or lurkers that read from this site -- do you believe that ALL are 'genuinely saved' or
could it be possible that there may a percentage that believe that they're "OK with God" - but are not born-again at all?
Please think about these two questions, Soccermom. I won't force you to answer that question - but I just would like you to think about it. There is a percentage here that believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world and because that, because they believe that He did - that that belief alone makes them "saved or Christians". There isn't a one of us here that doesn't know that that is a fact -- that there are nominal Christians -- others in false religious systems that have their faith in Jesus plus -- Etc ... yet, in their minds they are "Christians" but not Biblically ---- they aren't born-again/saved/regenerated/genuinely redeemed - they just believe that He died for the sins of the world so that must include them and that's as far as they've gone with their understanding of Salvation.
Now - you told them that they too can go to Heaven if they kill themselves - because remember now - they do believe they are "believers" or 'saved'.
As a teacher and a mother -- wouldn't it be better for the WHOLE of the readership here - if you never said that at all - nonetheless twice plus one 'agree' post - just in case or if nothing else - but common sense - Soccer Mom?
Nothing like self-righteousness and a lack of compassion and understanding of the diseases of depression, bipolar disorder, and other related illnesses.
Any kind of depression is marked by changes in the brain, because of the lack of neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine. That is physical evidence that mental illness is not just about attitude, or sin!
Once people have been depressed long term, it is physically impossible for the brain to recover. While medications, counseling and a good relationship with Jesus Christ can help, the person will need medication for the rest of their lives.
I have been ministering to the mentally ill, on-line, in support groups and as a chaplain, and I know how debilitating depression can be. Sometimes things are triggered, but things like childhood abuse or trauma leave a lifetime imprint on the brain. These days, I can recognize when it is depression, or a lack of neurotransmitters triggering the depression in people.
For those who cannot or will not seek help, for fear of ridicule, or not understanding the disease, can literally come to the end of their ability to cope. That is when suicidal impulses and urges become logical, rather than the scourge they are.
I would suggest that people get to know some people with depression, and comfort and encourage them. But do NOT judge or condemn them. I went through 5 long years of terrible depression when the pain and suffering of Rheumatoid Arthritis destroyed my life. I was a strong Christian, but got no help from anyone, and even the doctors did not help. But God was faithful, and brought me back, used my suffering for his good purpose, and now I minister to others with this terrible disease, which leaves people broken, empty and far from God.
But many times I was on the brink of suicide, so I can understand how any kind of pain and suffering can bring you to that point in life!
Sadly, it seems like depression is on the increase in North Amercia. Our society has lost family and community support for people, which results in loneliness and alienation which is a plague!
Our answer as Christians is to present Christ, support these people, through love and caring. AND medical care for a brain based illness, often genetically predisposed and triggered by brutal or traumatic circumstances!
We need to be a part of the solution, not part of the problem, by perpetuating the myths of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and they are judged and condemned already! Suicide is not murder! Suicide is the final answer to a brain tortured by depression and hopelessness. Even a Christian can go through this, and end up feeling more suidical, because of the total lack of understanding of the pain they are feeling.
Any kind of depression is marked by changes in the brain, because of the lack of neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine. That is physical evidence that mental illness is not just about attitude, or sin!
Once people have been depressed long term, it is physically impossible for the brain to recover. While medications, counseling and a good relationship with Jesus Christ can help, the person will need medication for the rest of their lives.
I have been ministering to the mentally ill, on-line, in support groups and as a chaplain, and I know how debilitating depression can be. Sometimes things are triggered, but things like childhood abuse or trauma leave a lifetime imprint on the brain. These days, I can recognize when it is depression, or a lack of neurotransmitters triggering the depression in people.
For those who cannot or will not seek help, for fear of ridicule, or not understanding the disease, can literally come to the end of their ability to cope. That is when suicidal impulses and urges become logical, rather than the scourge they are.
I would suggest that people get to know some people with depression, and comfort and encourage them. But do NOT judge or condemn them. I went through 5 long years of terrible depression when the pain and suffering of Rheumatoid Arthritis destroyed my life. I was a strong Christian, but got no help from anyone, and even the doctors did not help. But God was faithful, and brought me back, used my suffering for his good purpose, and now I minister to others with this terrible disease, which leaves people broken, empty and far from God.
But many times I was on the brink of suicide, so I can understand how any kind of pain and suffering can bring you to that point in life!
Sadly, it seems like depression is on the increase in North Amercia. Our society has lost family and community support for people, which results in loneliness and alienation which is a plague!
Our answer as Christians is to present Christ, support these people, through love and caring. AND medical care for a brain based illness, often genetically predisposed and triggered by brutal or traumatic circumstances!
We need to be a part of the solution, not part of the problem, by perpetuating the myths of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and they are judged and condemned already! Suicide is not murder! Suicide is the final answer to a brain tortured by depression and hopelessness. Even a Christian can go through this, and end up feeling more suidical, because of the total lack of understanding of the pain they are feeling.
Thank you Angela. I will keep that in mind, and I appreciate the offer. And the work you have done. You talked about the physical causes of these soulful ailments and people do have to remember those things. And even those go all the way back to the fall. God never intended any of us to have any such problems, those got introduced when Adam submitted himself to satan. Ever since that day the enemy has worked that failure deep into our very DNA. That's part of the original sin, the fallen nature. Our very flesh is programmed to fail God, before we're even born into it. That's why He had to make it so that our flesh could never be a disqualifier.
God bless you and your work. And your gift of discernment in these things. Discernment is often the foundation of compassion. And that is a fruit you bear nicely
God bless you and your work. And your gift of discernment in these things. Discernment is often the foundation of compassion. And that is a fruit you bear nicely
C
The problem with the increase in N. America is the blatant lies of the American Psychiatric Community merged with big Pharmaceutical Companies and those who are 'counseling' these poor people that believe those lies.
I was on my way into that field when the Lord got a hold of me and stopped me from going any further and Thank God with all my heart that HE did.
You or anyone that keeps propagating these lies - that WE who try to do everything in our power to do 'talk therapy' and everything in our power to STOP SUICIDE are Not the compassionate ones that know not only from personal experience but also from the other Psychiatric Community that have done the brain chemical testing and found that "The thoughts come first" and That's what causes the brain chemistry to go off. You're being lied to and you believe those lies and you're giving a temporary help and not a Biblical solution and setting yourself up to be more compassionate than God.
If you had done the research that I have since the early 70's until today, you'd understand that what you're saying is based upon 'false science' and based upon the greed of these Pharmaceutical Companies.
I too have counseled those that had not bought the lie of psychopharmacology and avoided taking the script for the antidepressants and with just talk therapy - they came out of it without the drugs. Don't tell me about being 'compassionate' as I've given my life for those that suffered mental anguish and you don't know me from Adam and to call me 'self-righteous' because I believe in saving lives from suicide is calling good evil and evil good. Your compassion is like filthy rags if you post on an open forum anything but counsel to Save Lives and not say - oh sure, as long as you 'believe in Jesus' - sure, go ahead and kill yourself. You call THAT "compassion"? No in God's eyes it's not. You have NO IDEA who's reading these threads -- and have shown me now that you actually don't give a hoot who's reading it -- as long as you can push secular lies about depression and have a gospel of death and promoting suicide is Pro-Death and not Pro-Life.
I will say it again and again --- if just one young teen kills themselves because they've read a thread like this --- their blood is on people like you and the other's heads.
God forgive you for seeing the desire to not 'tempt' ANY soul to take their lives with pseudo-secular-compassion that makes
God vomit.
I know I won't change your secular mind on these things nor your view that what you are practicing is compassion but it's not compassion for the living.
Back in the early 80's at a large conference of secular psychiatrists, the theme was "We've done more harm than good." and the one Dr that spoke that I will never forget was the one that said that "Even just talking with a good friend does more for people than we have." It was a very depressing conference but nonetheless -- rather than go to those who have had the higher success rate in secular psychiatry, like William Glasser, some greedy scoundrels found a way to do the testing but not publish that the thoughts came first and then the brain chemistry was altered ... which would be more of a Biblical view as well as Glasser "Reality Therapy" and "Choice Theory" - which he used first in a VA hospital and the success rate was phenomenal but few of these Drs wanted to "work that hard with a patient" and wanted a "Quick Fix" -- so now - for the same price per visit - all they do is pull out their prescription pad and they're done. They just write a higher dose, change the med, add a med and so forth - with No Talk Therapy. I've been on a certain forum with these patients and that is what they all were telling us .... their Dr only asks "How's that med working for you". That's it!
And what are the side effects of these drugs? You at least must know that much.... suicidal thoughts - just for one. Psychosis ... horrific withdrawl attempts and so forth. So you think that someone that is operating in the Holy Spirit can't do as well for these people as your pseudo-science and drugs and your form of unbiblical compassion?
I could go on and on and on with the research and talks that I've had with both Drs that practiced Reality Therapy and patients but for some reason, by the tone of your reply I seriously doubt that you are open to anything that I would present to you and you've bought this lie, hook line and sinker.
God forgive anyone that doesn't fight against suicide, God help those that are tempted with it and that's all I can do is pray that no one will end their life believing that God doesn't want or need them on this planet until the day that HE calls them home because HE is BEYOND ANY COMPASSION THAT ANY HUMAN BEING COULD EVER BE OR FEEL and HE's worth waiting for === no matter how hard the trial -- read your Bibles and see what REAL Trials are and "How" these sufferers got 'through'.
God forgive anyone believes they are counseling when they're promoting suicide and very dangerous secular produced Lies.
God forgive you all and Protect those that believe the lies that we've just experienced on this thread that could have come from God's perspective of Pro-Life and not humans making their own compassion, helps & treatments Greater than GOD's.
We pray for this pro-death generation that we're living in and pray Lord, that you stop these mortally dangerous lies that help to fuel this pro-death agenda of the enemy for those in this generation - young and old, in Jesus Name.
I was on my way into that field when the Lord got a hold of me and stopped me from going any further and Thank God with all my heart that HE did.
You or anyone that keeps propagating these lies - that WE who try to do everything in our power to do 'talk therapy' and everything in our power to STOP SUICIDE are Not the compassionate ones that know not only from personal experience but also from the other Psychiatric Community that have done the brain chemical testing and found that "The thoughts come first" and That's what causes the brain chemistry to go off. You're being lied to and you believe those lies and you're giving a temporary help and not a Biblical solution and setting yourself up to be more compassionate than God.
If you had done the research that I have since the early 70's until today, you'd understand that what you're saying is based upon 'false science' and based upon the greed of these Pharmaceutical Companies.
I too have counseled those that had not bought the lie of psychopharmacology and avoided taking the script for the antidepressants and with just talk therapy - they came out of it without the drugs. Don't tell me about being 'compassionate' as I've given my life for those that suffered mental anguish and you don't know me from Adam and to call me 'self-righteous' because I believe in saving lives from suicide is calling good evil and evil good. Your compassion is like filthy rags if you post on an open forum anything but counsel to Save Lives and not say - oh sure, as long as you 'believe in Jesus' - sure, go ahead and kill yourself. You call THAT "compassion"? No in God's eyes it's not. You have NO IDEA who's reading these threads -- and have shown me now that you actually don't give a hoot who's reading it -- as long as you can push secular lies about depression and have a gospel of death and promoting suicide is Pro-Death and not Pro-Life.
I will say it again and again --- if just one young teen kills themselves because they've read a thread like this --- their blood is on people like you and the other's heads.
God forgive you for seeing the desire to not 'tempt' ANY soul to take their lives with pseudo-secular-compassion that makes
God vomit.
I know I won't change your secular mind on these things nor your view that what you are practicing is compassion but it's not compassion for the living.
Back in the early 80's at a large conference of secular psychiatrists, the theme was "We've done more harm than good." and the one Dr that spoke that I will never forget was the one that said that "Even just talking with a good friend does more for people than we have." It was a very depressing conference but nonetheless -- rather than go to those who have had the higher success rate in secular psychiatry, like William Glasser, some greedy scoundrels found a way to do the testing but not publish that the thoughts came first and then the brain chemistry was altered ... which would be more of a Biblical view as well as Glasser "Reality Therapy" and "Choice Theory" - which he used first in a VA hospital and the success rate was phenomenal but few of these Drs wanted to "work that hard with a patient" and wanted a "Quick Fix" -- so now - for the same price per visit - all they do is pull out their prescription pad and they're done. They just write a higher dose, change the med, add a med and so forth - with No Talk Therapy. I've been on a certain forum with these patients and that is what they all were telling us .... their Dr only asks "How's that med working for you". That's it!
And what are the side effects of these drugs? You at least must know that much.... suicidal thoughts - just for one. Psychosis ... horrific withdrawl attempts and so forth. So you think that someone that is operating in the Holy Spirit can't do as well for these people as your pseudo-science and drugs and your form of unbiblical compassion?
I could go on and on and on with the research and talks that I've had with both Drs that practiced Reality Therapy and patients but for some reason, by the tone of your reply I seriously doubt that you are open to anything that I would present to you and you've bought this lie, hook line and sinker.
God forgive anyone that doesn't fight against suicide, God help those that are tempted with it and that's all I can do is pray that no one will end their life believing that God doesn't want or need them on this planet until the day that HE calls them home because HE is BEYOND ANY COMPASSION THAT ANY HUMAN BEING COULD EVER BE OR FEEL and HE's worth waiting for === no matter how hard the trial -- read your Bibles and see what REAL Trials are and "How" these sufferers got 'through'.
God forgive anyone believes they are counseling when they're promoting suicide and very dangerous secular produced Lies.
God forgive you all and Protect those that believe the lies that we've just experienced on this thread that could have come from God's perspective of Pro-Life and not humans making their own compassion, helps & treatments Greater than GOD's.
We pray for this pro-death generation that we're living in and pray Lord, that you stop these mortally dangerous lies that help to fuel this pro-death agenda of the enemy for those in this generation - young and old, in Jesus Name.
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S
Christ will forgive all the sins of those who are truly saved. Saying that, I find it hard to believe that truly saved people would continually repeat the same hurtful sins such as those of murder and adultery. Truly saved people seek to follow God. When they sin, they feel remorse and are repentant. If someone does not feel guilt and the desire to repent, they are probably not saved. Saved people also have a desire to learn about God. They read their Bible and pray. Anyone who does this will be able to see the truth.
I do not believe that all on this site are saved. However, it is not my place to judge. I never claimed that I could or would judge the salvation of others. Only God and the person themself know if they are saved. You must believe and accept Jesus as your Savior to be saved. You are saved by the grace of God not by your works. However, as saved Christians, we should desire to do good works. Our good works gain us rewards in Heaven. We must answer to God for our sins.
As a mother, I teach my kids to read the Bible and pray. I teach them that we are all human and prone to sin. That they should look to the Bible for guidance as humans are fallible. As a teacher, I encourage my students to be kind and respectful. They know not to joke about suicide to me. They also know that they can come to me no matter what they have done. I will listen and help them to the best of my ability. They know that I won't coddle them when they have sinned, and I won't hesitate to turn in illegal activity. Yet, they still come to me for guidance.
The difference between people who continue murdering and those who commit suicide is the ability to repent. Repeated murderers can repent from being a murderer they just choose not too. Once someone commits suicide they can no longer repent.
Suicide is a terrible thing! One that should never happen. I believe that all sins can be forgiven IF you are truly saved. If you do not know if you are truly saved, I suggest you study the Bible to find out.
To those considering suicide. If you are considering suicide, get help!!! Surround yourself by the love of God, through which all is possible. Pray, pray, and pray some more. Get support. God has a purpose for you or you wouldn't have been born. God doesn't make mistakes.
I hope I have answered all your questions. I am a born again Baptist who believes in salvation by grace, not by works.
I do not believe that all on this site are saved. However, it is not my place to judge. I never claimed that I could or would judge the salvation of others. Only God and the person themself know if they are saved. You must believe and accept Jesus as your Savior to be saved. You are saved by the grace of God not by your works. However, as saved Christians, we should desire to do good works. Our good works gain us rewards in Heaven. We must answer to God for our sins.
As a mother, I teach my kids to read the Bible and pray. I teach them that we are all human and prone to sin. That they should look to the Bible for guidance as humans are fallible. As a teacher, I encourage my students to be kind and respectful. They know not to joke about suicide to me. They also know that they can come to me no matter what they have done. I will listen and help them to the best of my ability. They know that I won't coddle them when they have sinned, and I won't hesitate to turn in illegal activity. Yet, they still come to me for guidance.
The difference between people who continue murdering and those who commit suicide is the ability to repent. Repeated murderers can repent from being a murderer they just choose not too. Once someone commits suicide they can no longer repent.
Suicide is a terrible thing! One that should never happen. I believe that all sins can be forgiven IF you are truly saved. If you do not know if you are truly saved, I suggest you study the Bible to find out.
To those considering suicide. If you are considering suicide, get help!!! Surround yourself by the love of God, through which all is possible. Pray, pray, and pray some more. Get support. God has a purpose for you or you wouldn't have been born. God doesn't make mistakes.
I hope I have answered all your questions. I am a born again Baptist who believes in salvation by grace, not by works.
Ditto, right back atcha. Difference is, you're making issue of your belief that we've bought into man's lies, while you flat out deny God's truth and persue a lie simply because God's truth makes you unhappy.
RTSQ. The OP is a "what if" not an "I'm going to..." And then read the whole rsponses, because pretty much everything you're ranting about is addressed within them. You just gloss over it because we answer the OP with the truth, which you will never be open to because it makes you uncomfortable.
Again, if you're going to insist on a works based salvation, we're gonna miss you on the other side.
RTSQ. The OP is a "what if" not an "I'm going to..." And then read the whole rsponses, because pretty much everything you're ranting about is addressed within them. You just gloss over it because we answer the OP with the truth, which you will never be open to because it makes you uncomfortable.
Again, if you're going to insist on a works based salvation, we're gonna miss you on the other side.
C
Thank you, Soccermom! I did feel that that was in your heart and why I kept asking questions and using your name with them.
That was a very encouraging post for anyone considering something as dreadful as killing oneself, and not only dreadful to themselves but more times than not, becomes a generational thing --- I don't mean this generational-curse that some believe in -- but everyone that I've known that had a family member that killed themselves, had one of their children or grand-children kill themselves as well. It really shakes one up to hear when this happens - some were friends of our family. I'm grateful that even with dementia and not being saved, my Dad said that, "it affects the rest of the family - the grand-children and all." I can't tell you how relieved I was to hear him say that -- as just 2 yrs ago, he brought up a very dear friend of our family, a grown man that did it to himself and I think his wife and married kids went into shock and Dad brought it up because he was feeling a bit unsettled about getting old. He's a pip though at 96 and I do pray that he'll see 100 but before that, that he'll see the Lord's love for Him on calvary.
Thank you again and God be with you in a comforting & tangible way and always over your children as their rear-guard.
God Bless!
That was a very encouraging post for anyone considering something as dreadful as killing oneself, and not only dreadful to themselves but more times than not, becomes a generational thing --- I don't mean this generational-curse that some believe in -- but everyone that I've known that had a family member that killed themselves, had one of their children or grand-children kill themselves as well. It really shakes one up to hear when this happens - some were friends of our family. I'm grateful that even with dementia and not being saved, my Dad said that, "it affects the rest of the family - the grand-children and all." I can't tell you how relieved I was to hear him say that -- as just 2 yrs ago, he brought up a very dear friend of our family, a grown man that did it to himself and I think his wife and married kids went into shock and Dad brought it up because he was feeling a bit unsettled about getting old. He's a pip though at 96 and I do pray that he'll see 100 but before that, that he'll see the Lord's love for Him on calvary.
Thank you again and God be with you in a comforting & tangible way and always over your children as their rear-guard.
God Bless!
S
Well from all this I hope God can help me the paranoia and fear just feel overwhelming in me I always feel I need to get away and don't have a clue what to do. I know I have something I need to do first and that its going to take time, but I've been depressed for a while now, and things just seem so bleak.
C
Face the things you fear Head On, Sis Shortcake. Sort of like bending over and aiming for that brick wall like a bull.
I had to do this myself and did find that if I face the things that I feared most - that they were just a "Boo" from the enemy or as 'anxiety' is a fear of the unknown ... hitting it face to face and head on - showed me that that unknown was nothing like what the fear was telling me inside.
If you have a good Pastor or elders or women's group leaders that you could talk with and feel comfortable sharing with -- or a Biblical Christian Counselor -- that wouldn't hurt neither. I just like to be sure that they're strictly Biblical Counselors with a good reputation.
Sometimes just an older woman in your Church could take you under her wing and help you work on those things that you need to do and maybe you could help her with the things that she can't do for herself. I like that idea.
You have a bunch of good sisters praying for you here... we'll pray that God sends you just the right person that you can do things with, face to face. Hugs to you in Spirit, Shortcake.
I had to do this myself and did find that if I face the things that I feared most - that they were just a "Boo" from the enemy or as 'anxiety' is a fear of the unknown ... hitting it face to face and head on - showed me that that unknown was nothing like what the fear was telling me inside.
If you have a good Pastor or elders or women's group leaders that you could talk with and feel comfortable sharing with -- or a Biblical Christian Counselor -- that wouldn't hurt neither. I just like to be sure that they're strictly Biblical Counselors with a good reputation.
Sometimes just an older woman in your Church could take you under her wing and help you work on those things that you need to do and maybe you could help her with the things that she can't do for herself. I like that idea.
You have a bunch of good sisters praying for you here... we'll pray that God sends you just the right person that you can do things with, face to face. Hugs to you in Spirit, Shortcake.
S
You are not alone. Many people feel this way. Remember, God doesn't make mistakes! God needs and wants you in this world. We all go through hard times. We all feel unwanted, unneeded, and unloved at some point in our lives. But, you can push past this.
Are you saved? If not, I encourage you to find a good Christian church. Read and study the Bible. If you are saved, study the Bible and pray. Follow what God tells you no matter if you understand why or not. God will lead you in the right direction.
If you would like to talk privately about some of your issues, please feel free to private message me. That is entirely up to you. I just know that sometimes it helps me to get the opinions of people who don't know me.
May God Bless you and watch over you through your trials. It is my sincere hope that you find the support you need whether on this site or elsewhere. Stay strong! With God, all things are possible.
Are you saved? If not, I encourage you to find a good Christian church. Read and study the Bible. If you are saved, study the Bible and pray. Follow what God tells you no matter if you understand why or not. God will lead you in the right direction.
If you would like to talk privately about some of your issues, please feel free to private message me. That is entirely up to you. I just know that sometimes it helps me to get the opinions of people who don't know me.
May God Bless you and watch over you through your trials. It is my sincere hope that you find the support you need whether on this site or elsewhere. Stay strong! With God, all things are possible.
K
Moses and Elijah were so depressed they wanted to die. I myself have had those thoughts and feelings. But only God has the right to take a human life. He may do this through police, judges, and armies whom He appoints, but anyone who takes it upon them self to end a human life, including one's own self, is guilty of murder just like Cain. there are exceptions such as accidents, but God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart, and I believe if someone murders them self that they will not be found blameless, and murderers cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. I myself felt this way, maybe even acted like I was going to, but I know in my heart I never would- it was simply a cry for help and compassion. But God will never let you go through more than you can handle. But you need to seek help, maybe call the national hotline. The bible says that the wise seek counsel.
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Suicide is a tough subject...but I agree with bits and pieces of what everyone said...I believe that suicide are separate incidences...I guess I have a few questions to anyone/everyone is interested
1. Do you believe that someone who is mentally unstable (or has a form of mental retardation) that does not allow them to rationalize thoughts in a coherent manner commits suicide, do you think they go to hell?
2. If someone who just mass murdered several people, and then kill themselves, where does that leave them?
3. If, God is the giver of life (as many mentioned) and we decide to become "gods" by taking control and ending our own lives is that not any different than the sin of pride?
Ultimately it depends on how one looks at it...I guess my biggest question in suicide Biblically is Saul (King Saul not Paul Saul) & Judas Escariot...
- King Saul; killed himself in battle by "running through his own sword" as the scriptures describes.
- Judas killing himself when the recognition of his sin against Jesus was too much to bear. He does "repent" when he goes back and returns the money that was given to him when he recognized that he had wronged the Lord. Also, his Death was prophesied in the Old Testament. So does that mean that He Lived and Died by Killing himself and condemning himself to hell just so a prophecy could come to pass? Or was it more of a "I really screwed up, Jesus didn't deserve that, I can't live with the pain of having sold out the Messiah the Lord". Yet didn't Jesus say he would be resurrected on the third day...so did Judas not believe Jesus so did he not have faith?
If I go back and forth with the thoughts I'll be stuck on this matter for the rest of my life (both sides provide interesting view points). Yet I must accept that I am never one to Judge who does or does not make it to Heaven, as no one but the Lord knows the thought process of any of these individuals before during or as they are dying. I'll leave it to God.
1. Do you believe that someone who is mentally unstable (or has a form of mental retardation) that does not allow them to rationalize thoughts in a coherent manner commits suicide, do you think they go to hell?
2. If someone who just mass murdered several people, and then kill themselves, where does that leave them?
3. If, God is the giver of life (as many mentioned) and we decide to become "gods" by taking control and ending our own lives is that not any different than the sin of pride?
Ultimately it depends on how one looks at it...I guess my biggest question in suicide Biblically is Saul (King Saul not Paul Saul) & Judas Escariot...
- King Saul; killed himself in battle by "running through his own sword" as the scriptures describes.
- Judas killing himself when the recognition of his sin against Jesus was too much to bear. He does "repent" when he goes back and returns the money that was given to him when he recognized that he had wronged the Lord. Also, his Death was prophesied in the Old Testament. So does that mean that He Lived and Died by Killing himself and condemning himself to hell just so a prophecy could come to pass? Or was it more of a "I really screwed up, Jesus didn't deserve that, I can't live with the pain of having sold out the Messiah the Lord". Yet didn't Jesus say he would be resurrected on the third day...so did Judas not believe Jesus so did he not have faith?
If I go back and forth with the thoughts I'll be stuck on this matter for the rest of my life (both sides provide interesting view points). Yet I must accept that I am never one to Judge who does or does not make it to Heaven, as no one but the Lord knows the thought process of any of these individuals before during or as they are dying. I'll leave it to God.
Compassion has only one definition. There's no 'Godly compassion' as opposed to 'human compassion' there's just 'compassion', and it's defined as 'pity and concern for the suffering of others', which ultimately brings about a desire to understand and help. Such a desire to help, contrary to the tone of your post however, is not arisen out of offense to the idea of suicide (as above in your post) nor fuelled by aggression (as above in your post); it is arisen out of empathy and fuelled via consideration.
A few key themes in your post are:
Trivializing the genuine struggles of suicidal people by inferring they aren't even 'real struggles', (which is a form of invalidation and harmful to a person's mental state); attacking counselling and promoting 'Talk Therapy', while counselling is widely regarded as one of the most effective 'Talk Therapies' there are (quite confusing); mistakenly assuming that understanding and appreciating the depth of a suicidal person's pain is morally equivalent to condoning or even promoting suicide as a solution to that pain (which it isn't); that our generation (because some of us made comments that showed understanding of a suicidal person's desparation) is 'Pro-Death' (which is unverifiable); subversively suggesting that fear of God's eternal judgement (yet another weight to add to the proverbial shoulders of an already weighed down human) is the major point we should get across in dealing with suicidal people, which I disagree intensely with; that whether 'the thoughts come first' or whether the chemical changes come first makes any actual difference to whether a person is genuinely depressed or not (which it doesn't), and makes any difference to whether or not receptor inhibitors are effective in treating depression (which it doesn't).
Those themes seem fairly antithecal to warmth, understanding and compassion. They sound more like aggressive proselytizing, which I would wager has more to do with aligning yourself with some percieved necessary orthodoxy where medicinal science and non-religiously motivated therapies are invariably inimical, than with wanting to help suicidal folks out of empathy.
A few key themes in your post are:
Trivializing the genuine struggles of suicidal people by inferring they aren't even 'real struggles', (which is a form of invalidation and harmful to a person's mental state); attacking counselling and promoting 'Talk Therapy', while counselling is widely regarded as one of the most effective 'Talk Therapies' there are (quite confusing); mistakenly assuming that understanding and appreciating the depth of a suicidal person's pain is morally equivalent to condoning or even promoting suicide as a solution to that pain (which it isn't); that our generation (because some of us made comments that showed understanding of a suicidal person's desparation) is 'Pro-Death' (which is unverifiable); subversively suggesting that fear of God's eternal judgement (yet another weight to add to the proverbial shoulders of an already weighed down human) is the major point we should get across in dealing with suicidal people, which I disagree intensely with; that whether 'the thoughts come first' or whether the chemical changes come first makes any actual difference to whether a person is genuinely depressed or not (which it doesn't), and makes any difference to whether or not receptor inhibitors are effective in treating depression (which it doesn't).
Those themes seem fairly antithecal to warmth, understanding and compassion. They sound more like aggressive proselytizing, which I would wager has more to do with aligning yourself with some percieved necessary orthodoxy where medicinal science and non-religiously motivated therapies are invariably inimical, than with wanting to help suicidal folks out of empathy.
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