Your thoughts please

[Cameron143]

There are some very gifted worship leaders. I don't mean gifted with simply musical talent, but with the ability to edify believers in and through their giftedness.
Music seems to be added to worship during the time of David. And they definitely had instruments. They had harps and trumpets, timbrels and stringed instruments and organs, and a number of types of cymbals. They even had a chief musician. And without sound systems, the music would have carried further from a raised position so they would have probably have played from a raised position.
The important thing would have that those gifted by God for the purpose of aiding the congregation in worship do so to the glory of God and not self-aggrandizement.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

Oh, I dunno... Seems a church big enough to require auditions would almost certainly be big enough to have a page of requirements for choir members. Must be a member of the church in good standing, must wear clothing on stage that is not provocative, must have a prayer life, whatever that particular church deems necessary. If there are that many people in a church that they need auditions, surely SOMEONE in the group has thought of that by now.

I get that. I simply said it could be read that way, not that it's what they meant. But then again with many churches I wouldn't put it past them. I'm sure there's a church out there eager to be the next Hillsong.

 

[Lynx]

I agree. There is absolutely no New Testament basis for this kind of "showmanship".

Many are no doubt sincere, but the whole idea is that the entire congregation join together in all worship. Add to that the loud music, and what we have is "entertainment". Then do away with biblically sound hymns and songs of praise, and what are you left with? Some churches even pay individuals come and sing for them.

I believe these modern trends were meant to attract crowds, but church worship is really for believers. Visitors are always welcome, but the church has no business modifying things to make them more appealing to those who simply need to hear the Gospel.

I guess that means you are definitely NOT going to see Gold City Quartet next time they are singing in your area.

But man, when they hit the second verse of "In My Robe Of White..."

 

[oldman]

cameron 143

.they would have probably have played from a raised position

Doubtful because playing from a stage would have put them above the Ark of the Covenant

 

[Cameron143]

cameron 143

.they would have probably have played from a raised position

Doubtful because playing from a stage would have put them above the Ark of the Covenant

The Ark of the Covenant would have been in a separate place from where worship took place. But you may be right. I've never been to a temple or synagogue. But sitting on the roof couldn't place them above God if they were humbled in your giftedness.

 

[oldman]

I think I misunderstood your post #21. I thought you were speaking of David's tabernacle were the Ark of the Covenant was housed in only a simple tent - something like a canopy - may or may not have had 'walls' to block human viewing. My thinking is that the Levite musicians, singers,dancers would have moved around in a circle at times - perhaps standing still at other times - leading the other Israelites in true worship.

 

[Cameron143]

I think I misunderstood your post #21. I thought you were speaking of David's tabernacle were the Ark of the Covenant was housed in only a simple tent - something like a canopy - may or may not have had 'walls' to block human viewing. My thinking is that the Levite musicians, singers,dancers would have moved around in a circle at times - perhaps standing still at other times - leading the other Israelites in true worship.

You make an excellent point, and one I hadn't considered. Jews were big on outward conformity even when their hearts were far from God.

 

[Aaron56]

How does one audition for a life lived in reverence to the Lord?

Oh! They mean band member.

 

[Cameron143]

How does one audition for a life lived in reverence to the Lord?

Oh! They mean band member.

I've got you on the travel team.

 

[oldman]

, it just KILLS praise.

Would you please expound the why and how this happens? What about the effect of ego on true worship?

 

[oldman]

I agree. There is absolutely no New Testament basis for this kind of "showmanship".

Totally agree. Now what can be done to return to the Tabernacle, David's tabernacle and new testament pattern for praise then worship?

 

[oldman]

How does one audition for a life lived in reverence to the Lord?

Oh! They mean band member.

Yep. sad but true

 

[oldman]

Oh, I dunno... Seems a church big enough to require auditions would almost certainly be big enough to have a page of requirements for choir members. Must be a member of the church in good standing, must wear clothing on stage that is not provocative, must have a prayer life, whatever that particular church deems necessary. If there are that many people in a church that they need auditions, surely SOMEONE in the group has thought of that by now.

Do you think that a worship team is even needed?

 

[oldman]

Ah, I remember my grandma was one that sang with gusto but her voice was not one that would or should ever be on stage.

I've tried to ask my friend, who is in charge of our worship teams, if the church would start a children's choir or worship team but they aren't interested. I cant help but think they're not interested because they're too caught up in sounding perfect or "performing" than desiring real worship.

key words "stage". and "performing."
well said

 

[oldman]

I put a lid on my bucket, and learned to enjoy listening to music.

Doing so will minister to those within earshot IF the person singing is in truth as such causes a flow of the Holy Spirit through the person singing that others can sense in their spirit. Sometimes it is helpful to not engage in praise or worship - just listen and soak up the manifest presence of the Lord.

 

[oldman]

No one really minds
That Anita sings off key
We got her mic turned down
We're doing all right

- Tim Hawkins

I kinda doubt that the Lord needs her mic to hear her.
To whom is she singing anyway?

 

[oldman]

I understand, and would be an advocate for "auditions" for a church worship team. Ultimately, the larger the church the more it would be advisable IMO. I remember years ago sitting on front of a gentleman at church that couldn't carry a tune if you handed it to him in a bucket. I loved that he sang at the top of his lungs, but at the same time it was highly distracting because literally every note was off key.

If someone was so distracting, why not move to another seat?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Totally agree. Now what can be done to return to the Tabernacle, David's tabernacle and new testament pattern for praise then worship?

We cannot return to that tabernacle, but we can enter the true tabernacle in spirit. Jesus said we are to worship in spirit and in truth.Here's the reason given in Hebrews 8:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience...
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 H ow much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance...
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us...
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Christ is in Heaven as our Great High Priest and His blood has been sprinkled on the Mercy Seat. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:24) Therefore when we worship we enter before the throne of God which is the throne of grace. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb 4:16)

 

[oldman]

I ran across a brief reference that Martin Luther moved the choir off a platform to strategic spots in the general congregation. He saw that when someone actually enter true worship or praise there was a flow of the Holy Spirit that would affect similar worship or praise by those in close proximity which was multiplied by our Father to bless the entire congregation.

 

[oldman]

We cannot return to that tabernacle, but we can enter the true tabernacle in spirit. Jesus said we are to worship in spirit and in truth.Here's the reason given in Hebrews 8:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience...
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 H ow much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance...
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us...
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Christ is in Heaven as our Great High Priest and His blood has been sprinkled on the Mercy Seat. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:24) Therefore when we worship we enter before the throne of God which is the throne of grace. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Heb 4:16)

Agreed that we cannot nor should we try to recreate Moses tabernacle - I didn't mean to imply that we should in our present world.

We have a bible principle ' first the natural then the spiritual." The physical example of Moses tabernacle was to serve as a physical example of how to get into the presence of the Father. Step by step. Understand the physical first then apply that understanding to the spiritual realm.